TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Afif]

I believe Kızılelma is tied with KAAN as the most promising Turkish aviation project to date. Not because it's better, but because there is a chance that Kızılelma will have vastly superior conops design and easier production. It will sell like crazy. Just needs one A2A kill and floodgates will be wide open.

KE will depend on SATCOM for remote control. Which is not great for high intensity scenario. Other option is completely autonomous BVR engagement. Which would require an insane AI and high level of integration with other platform + sensor fusion. I am not convince we will see anything like that before 2040. However controling KE from a two-seater KAAN or even Hurjet looks more realistic.

 

[neosinan]

KE will depend on SATCOM for remote control. Which is not great for high intensity scenario. Other option is completely autonomous BVR engagement. Which would require an insane AI and high level of integration with other platform + sensor fusion. I am not convince we will see anything like that before 2040. However controling KE from a two-seater KAAN or even Hurjet looks more realistic.

2 years ago, We were in totally different scenario. I am not sure about this, anymore. LLMs and Diffusion models showed what is possible. AI is almost there and US is planning to start using AI powered jets in 2028. Kızılelma/Selçuk Bayraktar's claims aren't looking as crazy as I thought they were.

AI 'pilots' are getting so good they're sometimes beating humans in dogfights

The US Air Force has been actively exploring AI, which is seen as a transformative technology for military action globally.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[YeşilVatan]

KE will depend on SATCOM for remote control. Which is not great for high intensity scenario. Other option is completely autonomous BVR engagement. Which would require an insane AI and high level of integration with other platform + sensor fusion. I am not convince we will see anything like that before 2040. However controling KE from a two-seater KAAN looks more realistic.

When I speak about this, the parameters of the engagements are narrower than what you think. This stuff is not for warring with the US or even Greece in 2030. Anyone with a decent stealth fighter squadron would clearly make this concept useless, or at the very least, greatly limit its efficiency. But stealth fighters do not exactly grow on trees do they? Most countries try to make do with 4th gen fighters and relatively older land based air defence. In short, pick enemies carefully. This is for crippling middling air forces.

AESA radar means seeing from further away, good missiles means shooting from further away, low observability means the enemy can't respond, and there is the slim possibility of dominating in dogfights with automation. A Kızılelma fleet will mean an "I win" button, if the enemy does not have proper countermeasures. And those countermeasures will be hard to attain. The bar for the enemy gets very high.

Technical issues you brought up are certainly problems, but not as much as you think they are. USAF already tested an AI controlled F-16 against a manned F-16, and unmanned one dominated. The level of automation is the deciding factor here. Will the plane be able to;

• Spot,
• Identify,
• Lock on to,
• Shoot down

an enemy Su-35, while;

• Being at BVR distance,
• Without being seen,
• While resisting EW

If the answer is yes, this will be a monster.

 

[B_A]

2 years ago, We were in totally different scenario. I am not sure about this, anymore. LLMs and Diffusion models showed what is possible. AI is almost there and US is planning to start using AI powered jets in 2028. Kızılelma/Selçuk Bayraktar's claims aren't looking as crazy as I thought they were.

AI 'pilots' are getting so good they're sometimes beating humans in dogfights

The US Air Force has been actively exploring AI, which is seen as a transformative technology for military action globally.

www.businessinsider.com

For a weapon project,2028 and 2040 is not very different.everything delayed

 

[Afif]

When I speak about this, the parameters of the engagements are narrower than what you think. This stuff is not for warring with the US or even Greece in 2030. Anyone with a decent stealth fighter squadron would clearly make this concept useless, or at the very least, greatly limit its efficiency. But stealth fighters do not exactly grow on trees do they? Most countries try to make do with 4th gen fighters and relatively older land based air defence. In short, pick enemies carefully. This is for crippling middling air forces.

AESA radar means seeing from further away, good missiles means shooting from further away, low observability means the enemy can't respond, and there is the slim possibility of dominating in dogfights with automation. A Kızılelma fleet will mean an "I win" button, if the enemy does not have proper countermeasures. And those countermeasures will be hard to attain. The bar for the enemy gets very high.

Technical issues you brought up are certainly problems, but not as much as you think they are. USAF already tested an AI controlled F-16 against a manned F-16, and unmanned one dominated. The level of automation is the deciding factor here. Will the plane be able to;

• Spot,
• Identify,
• Lock on to,
• Shoot down

an enemy Su-35, while;

• Being at BVR distance,
• Without being seen,
• While resisting EW

If the answer is yes, this will be a monster.

You are right, if we are not going against an AF with 5th gen fighter and sophisticated EW capabilities, then KE has a good chance to dominate. And yes it would be excellent cost effective choice for many countries to gain credible BVR capability.

However, recent USAF experiment result should be taken with caution. Secretary of USAF said, AI and Human Pilots Are 'Roughly an Even Fight,' In F-16 Dogfight.

But more importantly, AI dogfight is obviously going to be easier than AI BVR engagement. As the later is much more complex and require higher level of tactical integration across the platforms and joint decision making across the formation. While former is still good old 1v1 scenario.

 

[Heartbang]

Anyone with a decent stealth fighter squadron would clearly make this concept useless, or at the very least, greatly limit its efficiency.

I disagree.

Kızılelma could hold its own against the 5th gens, provided that the AI agent and the sensor stack in it is good.
Oh, and one could feasibly assume that Kızılelma's will always be numerically superior in a fight against 5th gens.
So that's a thing.

 

[Ahlatshah]

Oh, and one could feasibly assume that Kızılelma's will always be numerically superior in a fight against 5th gens.

Exactly.

KE is always meant to be cheap and used in numbers. Selçuk Bayraktar himself said in a TV, "6 KEs for the price of 1 5th gen"

What is said for F35, it will not go in to dogfight because it doesn't need to. I wonder why not the similar thing is valid for KE. A stealthy aircraft with a decent radar and a good BVR missile, also with numbers can give hell to 4th and 4.5th gen fighters. By the time Murad Radar and Gokhan AA missile is mission ready, so will be KE.

When we kicked out F35 program, I felt anger and desperation for that (still sometimes). But in 5 years time there is an increasing possibility that we feel very fortunate not to get them because for the first time in centuries we are this close to military freedom in terms of technology and doctrine. Deep strike for Anka III, Air to Air for KE, mission command in air for hava soj, hürjet, Kaan name it. May be not the best out there but capable and all ours, exportable and independent. Just think about that, how one cannot be excited?

Isn't that worth waiting for?

 

[boredaf]

I believe Kızılelma is tied with KAAN as the most promising Turkish aviation project to date. Not because it's better, but because there is a chance that Kızılelma will have vastly superior conops design and easier production. It will sell like crazy. Just needs one A2A kill and floodgates will be wide open.

Selçuk Bey has a chance to revolutionize air warfare by making advanced capabilities accesible, just like how TB2 did the same with precision strikes. My guess is, he aims to make something that will dominate 4th gen fighters and do SEAD/DEAD. If that goal is achieved, then keeping a competent air power will be significantly easier for friends of the Turkish Republic. Off the shelf A2A and SEAD/DEAD capability.

Of course that's if he can actually manage to do it. I hope it happens. I may even sacrifice a goat when it happens.

I personally disagree. While KE will give us an edge, Anka 3 will give us a capability we completely lacked before, deep strike capability is truly a game changer.

 

[Strong AI]

I think that KE will be the loyal wingman of F-16 ÖZGÜR and HÜRJET whereas ANKA-3/4 will be the loyal wingman of KAAN.

 

[Anmdt]

What were those events?

Recall of some Baykar personnel somehow involved in unfortunate car accident that seemed as reluctancy of them.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Anka 3 in my opinion is not a wingman platform it is a strategic stealth bomber drone (bomb truck).
Of course it depends on how much payload the final production aircraft can carry, but anything less than 5-6 tons makes no sense.
We urgently need a bomber platform that can penetrate deep into enemy airspace and drop the payload.

 

[uçuyorum]

I hope we see a Hürjet - KAAN - ANKA - Özgür flight

 

[Radko]

I disagree.

Kızılelma could hold its own against the 5th gens, provided that the AI agent and the sensor stack in it is good.
Oh, and one could feasibly assume that Kızılelma's will always be numerically superior in a fight against 5th gens.
So that's a thing.

exactly, according to Haluk Bayraktar they will produce 48 Kızılelma in 2026 (12 this year and 24 in 2025) that equals to near 200 in 2028

 

[dBSPL]

I think it's not just about diversifying the sources of mid-range turbofan engines. It is more about Baykar's corporate transformation. Does Lockheed only design fighter jets? As is clear, Baykar is expanding its field of activity. In other words, it is transforming from a niche aerospace company on UAV systems to one of the world-leading defense company giants. While the main area of activity is aerospace and unmanned aviation, they will also enter a few other areas. Activities on smart munitions and propulsion systems, as well as reusable rocket systems that will carry payloads into space, will be the most prominent ones in the near future. And all of this should be considered together with Baykar's unseen strength in software field.

 

[dBSPL]

I think that KE will be the loyal wingman of F-16 ÖZGÜR and HÜRJET whereas ANKA-3/4 will be the loyal wingman of KAAN.

In my humble opinion, the current KE prototype is more of a technological level demonstration and a stepping stone to the desired destination. Of course, it will be mass-produced and has the potential to enter the service of many forces, but if you ask me, Baykar's Kızılelma journey is to reach the capacity to produce unmanned combat jets that can beat any up-to-date air superiortiy jet, not a wingman, but a platform that will be the main force in related operations. Some sources will call it the 6th generation fighter jet.

On the TAI side, my expectation is that KAAN will come to the fore as an 'optionally' manned aircraft and ANKA-X will become a stealth platform capable of intercontinental missions as a penetrator UCAV.

 

[No Name]

In my humble opinion, the current KE prototype is more of a technological level demonstration and a stepping stone to the desired destination. Of course, it will be mass-produced and has the potential to enter the service of many forces, but if you ask me, Baykar's Kızılelma journey is to reach the capacity to produce unmanned combat jets that can beat any up-to-date air superiortiy jet, not a wingman, but a platform that will be the main force in related operations. Some sources will call it the 6th generation fighter jet.

On the TAI side, my expectation is that KAAN will come to the fore as an 'optionally' manned aircraft and ANKA-X will become a stealth platform capable of intercontinental missions as a penetrator UCAV.

Do you mean like a Turkish B-21 Raider but in a drone form?

Comparing KE to the MQ-28 Ghost Bat, how well do you all think that KE holds up since KE's future competition is going to be Ghost Bat?

 

[Afif]

Do you mean like a Turkish B-21 Raider but in a drone form?

Comparing KE to the MQ-28 Ghost Bat, how well do you all think that KE holds up since KE's future competition is going to be Ghost Bat?

Ghost bat is not KE's future competition. Different class I would even say.

 

[TheInsider]

Baykar currently has no R&D project to produce an engine similar to PD series engines. Currently, Baykar is working on an engine that will replace the Rotax engine used in TB2 and the engine of the Kızılelma. Baykar also buys DIHA engine Baykuş form ERIN Motor. I suspect BM 100 engine might be a co-development project with ERIN Motor. Baykar will probably contract the same TEI subcontractors to produce Kızılelma engine. Verzane Metal (%100 owned by TEI) will probably provide single crystal blades Baykar will probably get design aid from Baykar's Ukrainian partners. 300 million $ is enough to set up machine shops/production lines for the engine. 5 years for mass production seems realistic as i think the project has been going on at the background for some time.

 

[Kaan Azman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1798462362992685497

Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 5 with RCM2 UAV, SÜPER ŞİMŞEK but larger in a nutshell. I think we should start exhibiting F-16 ÖZGÜR with SÜPER ŞİMŞEK.

 

[UkroTurk]

They are also planning Süper Şimşek like UAVs launching from C130

Before This, With EF there had been another loyal wingman that we didn't know.
Italian Alenia Sky X

Leonardo Sky-X, precursor of future Loyal Wingman, the unmanned “followers” for the next generation aircraft - Italian Defence Technologies

The Sky-X demonstrator conducted the first flight on 29 May 2005 at the Vidsel,…

www.italiandefencetechnologies.com

In 2008, it made a very important demonstration where it was able to refuel a C27J completely automatically. The company also conducted a weapon campaign

İmagine Turkish Süper Şimşek with Hürjet

Anyway, Kızılelma has a rival, Airbus has just revealed European loyal wingman.

ILA Berlin 2024