TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Fuzuli NL]

I am very concerned that we are simply passing on hard-won know-how and technology.
I don't remember Turkey being helped in a similar way in the EU when Turkey was not as technologically advanced as it is today.

Not that something like this will backfire...

Italians do have a history of producing imported weapons locally.
Just look up Meridionali Chinook, Aeritalia F-104S/ASA, Agusta/Bell 204/205/206 etc.
I still think that Leonardo is going to facilitate many things not only for Baykar but for the entire Turkish defence industry and maybe tenders in Europe.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Italians do have a history of producing imported weapons locally.
Just look up Meridionali Chinook, Aeritalia F-104S/ASA, Agusta/Bell 204/205/206 etc.
I still think that Leonardo is going to facilitate many things not only for Baykar but for the entire Turkish defence industry and maybe tenders on Europe.

Certainly, but what does Turkey get besides money?
It will be curious if modified Akinci, TB2/3, Kizilelma with Italian sensors, radar, with modified Turkish AI software and their targeting system and optics ends up in the hands of Greece as a European drone business through Leonardo.....
I don't know if this is in the spirit of the Turkish security architecture to support the enemy who sees us as the ultimate and absolute enemy.
The point was to sell specifically to EU countries, if necessary with some adaptations, e.g. Hensoldt optics, Rotax engines if desired. ASELSAN optics and TEI engines are now better than the European products, and if they fall into the wrong hands it is damage that cannot be undone. Even if Turkey does not supply parts for Greek drones, Leonardo may supply alternative components.

Even worse, terminate the joint venture in 3-4 years on a pretext, and continue with the know-how gained, which is more likely.
I know that doesn't mean anything, but even in the Italian military forum they talk about... that the Turks are not trustworthy, you should siphon off all the know-how and knowledge and then kick them out of the joint venture.

If Europe wants to buy systems from Turkey, then it should buy complete systems; conversely, we cannot intervene in European systems at will.

 

[No Name]

I am very concerned that we are simply passing on hard-won know-how and technology.
I don't remember Turkey being helped in a similar way in the EU when Turkey was not as technologically advanced as it is today.

Not that something like this will backfire...

the Italians did help us with the TAI T129 ATAK based on the Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, and they had asked us to partner with them to develop their new AW249 Fenice (personally, I think that Turkey should have joined the project).

 

[No Name]

Certainly, but what does Turkey get besides money?
It will be curious if modified Akinci, TB2/3, Kizilelma with Italian sensors, radar, with modified Turkish AI software and their targeting system and optics ends up in the hands of Greece as a European drone business through Leonardo.....
I don't know if this is in the spirit of the Turkish security architecture to support the enemy who sees us as the ultimate and absolute enemy.
The point was to sell specifically to EU countries, if necessary with some adaptations, e.g. Hensoldt optics, Rotax engines if desired. ASELSAN optics and TEI engines are now better than the European products, and if they fall into the wrong hands it is damage that cannot be undone. Even if Turkey does not supply parts for Greek drones, Leonardo may supply alternative components.

Even worse, terminate the joint venture in 3-4 years on a pretext, and continue with the know-how gained, which is more likely.
I know that doesn't mean anything, but even in the Italian military forum they talk about... that the Turks are not trustworthy, you should siphon off all the know-how and knowledge and then kick them out of the joint venture.

If Europe wants to buy systems from Turkey, then it should buy complete systems; conversely, we cannot intervene in European systems at will.

Greece probably already got its hands on Turkish technology from all those drones shot down over all those battlefields. Also, defence companies need money to develop new weapons; thus, they need to be sold so that new systems can replace the old ones. Turkey can not only keep advancing but deter new companies from emerging that can challenge Turkish companies.

 

[Ripley]

Certainly, but what does Turkey get besides money?
It will be curious if modified Akinci, TB2/3, Kizilelma with Italian sensors, radar, with modified Turkish AI software and their targeting system and optics ends up in the hands of Greece as a European drone business through Leonardo.....
I don't know if this is in the spirit of the Turkish security architecture to support the enemy who sees us as the ultimate and absolute enemy.
The point was to sell specifically to EU countries, if necessary with some adaptations, e.g. Hensoldt optics, Rotax engines if desired. ASELSAN optics and TEI engines are now better than the European products, and if they fall into the wrong hands it is damage that cannot be undone. Even if Turkey does not supply parts for Greek drones, Leonardo may supply alternative components.

Even worse, terminate the joint venture in 3-4 years on a pretext, and continue with the know-how gained, which is more likely.
I know that doesn't mean anything, but even in the Italian military forum they talk about... that the Turks are not trustworthy, you should siphon off all the know-how and knowledge and then kick them out of the joint venture.

If Europe wants to buy systems from Turkey, then it should buy complete systems; conversely, we cannot intervene in European systems at will.

I’ve seen few Italian X feed where some poster were all for it and considered the move very smart. They were also praising the Akinci’s versatility and Turkish weapon systems in general.

The joint company will be split in the middle. 50/50. So, if Turkey senses a risk of the SW and/or HW will fall into wrong hands, it can block the sale.

Honestly, maybe with exclusion of some EO, radar and HW, there is nothing much Italy, or Europe for that matter, can gain from Turkish technological achievements. These are not some pitch and fork backwater country folks.

 

[Ripley]

Greece probably already got its hands on Turkish technology from all those drones shot down over all those battlefields. Also, defence companies need money to develop new weapons; thus, they need to be sold so that new systems can replace the old ones. Turkey can not only keep advancing but deter new companies from emerging that can challenge Turkish companies.

Dude suppose they captured those downed drones. What can they do? Reverse engineer, manufacture them and supply to their army? And if they do that with what infrastructure of industry they will do it?

 

[boredaf]

Dude suppose they captured those downed drones. What can they do? Reverse engineer, manufacture them and supply to their army? And if they do that with what infrastructure of industry they will do it?

The only threat they posses is that they can bring their bigger brothers against us and that's just it. Without them, they'd get slapped like the spoiled kid they are, not even worthy of a punch.

We shouldn't look at this at what we might risk, but as what we might gain, and it isn't just some technology or money. Hard power is not the only way to get what you want, in fact, about 90% of the time its only use is to back your soft power. More European countries we develop ties with, the more power we are going to get. Italy isn't France or Greece, their goals don't always align with those two, especially in the Mediterranean. We already have a good relationship with Spain, and it has been getting better with UK, adding Italy to that list would be great for us.

 

[No Name]

Dude suppose they captured those downed drones. What can they do? Reverse engineer, manufacture them and supply to their army? And if they do that with what infrastructure of industry they will do it?

My point is that Turkey has nothing to fear, and all the technology is already out there for its enemies to examine if they want to, so it isn't this big thing.

 

[Ripley]

The only threat they posses is that they can bring their bigger brothers against us and that's just it. Without them, they'd get slapped like the spoiled kid they are, not even worthy of a punch.

We shouldn't look at this at what we might risk, but as what we might gain, and it isn't just some technology or money. Hard power is not the only way to get what you want, in fact, about 90% of the time its only use is to back your soft power. More European countries we develop ties with, the more power we are going to get. Italy isn't France or Greece, their goals don't always align with those two, especially in the Mediterranean. We already have a good relationship with Spain, and it has been getting better with UK, adding Italy to that list would be great for us.

Totally agree.
The gains. That’s how we should read it.
I believe most of us thrilled here with Hürjet and the recent Leonardo deal not only because we found some customers for our products but mostly because we are moving into European arms market through major European countries.
When you consider the recent political upheaval and facing their lackluster military for the first time in decades, the timing for Turkish industry to move in Europe is impeccable.

 

[BaburKhan]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1898863110347264313

One has to ask whether weapon systems such as #Akinci, #Kizilelma or #TB3 with sensors and other electronics from @Leonardo_live could be used against #Turkey in the worst case scenario. Since @realDonaldTrump, the pressure on #EU heads of state to establish a common defense policy has been increasing.

If the aforementioned #UCAVs are used in #Italy and other EU states and Turkey is not included in the common defense policy, it would be conceivable that these drones could be used against Turkey in the event of a crisis in the #Aegean, #Cyprus, #Libya or #Syria!

 

[No Name]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1898863110347264313

Europeans already have their own defence industry, so denying them weapons will only lead them to develop them themselves and become competitors to the Turkish defence industry. This would lead to a small market share for Turkish companies, which in turn would lead to less funding for new projects, thus making Turkey's military outdated.

 

[2033]

Could the Leonardo-Baykar deal be an alternative to the EuroDrone project?

The Italian side has announced that the EuroDrone project will continue.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

the Italians did help us with the TAI T129 ATAK based on the Italian Agusta A129 Mangusta, and they had asked us to partner with them to develop their new AW249 Fenice (personally, I think that Turkey should have joined the project).

I know, but combat helicopters are not key weapon systems of the 21st century like autonomous or semi-autonomous Drones, which even perform some of the tasks of combat Aircraft.
If Italy had wanted to cooperate with the navy or in the Altay Tank for example, I would have agreed without hesitation.

As already mentioned, we were denied access to the key systems and they didn't want to cooperate either.
With drones we have the upper hand and suddenly they want to cooperate, we here in the forum are not a factor for the Turkish government and their strategy anyway and maybe it's true that we create dependencies so that they think twice about doing something to us. We should still be careful and not leave key subsystems to them. They would do the same!

 

[Turkic]

Could the Leonardo-Baykar deal be an alternative to the EuroDrone project?

The Italian side has announced that the EuroDrone project will continue.

I don't know the exact answer but the first TB-2 retired at 11th year. So if they're determined to acquire EuroDrone, they will still need a system until it's ready and Akıncı's are perfect fit. It can easily fill the gap of Reaper/EuroDrone and it can do more if they're aiming to change the airframe. It still has advantages like capability of launching ballistic/cruise missiles without the airframe is touched. Their retirements will perfectly fit for the production phase of EuroDrone program.

But I wouldn't choose EuroDrone over an equal/better system (Akıncı with a slight payload capacity and flight endurance upgrade) I've been using for a decade. However, European consortium programs usually bring forced purchases to pay program money back and keep the workforce going. What I would do is using Akıncı and keep upgrading it and then purchasing small numbers of EuroDrone's only for specific missions like EW to fulfill required purchases.

 

[Oublious]

 

[TR_123456]

We will probably join the GCAP(6th gen fighter jet) project he is talking about,the only country objecting to it would be Japan if not.

 

[Oublious]

We will probably join the GCAP(6th gen fighter jet) project he is talking about,the only country objecting to it would be Japan if not.

yeah faking Japan....