TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Yasar_TR]

Akinci is a platform that definitely outperforms TAI's drone in all areas; Aksungur cannot compete with it.

TAI is state owned,it can go slow.
Baykar is not,it needs to earn to develop.

We mustn’t compare apples with oranges.
TAI is a state owned company with certain bureaucratic practices that can not be overcome easily. That makes it lethargic and not malleable like a private sector company as Baykar.

There is a fine and sensitive division of work share between the two companies when it comes to UAVs.

Small lightweight UCAVs are produced by Baykar. (TB2 & TB3)
Supersonic Stealth attack UCAVs are produced by Baykar. (KE)
High altitude turboprop UAVs are also Baykar’s domain. (Akinci)

Heavier weight mid altitude long endurance UAVs are produced by TAI (Anka-1 and Anka-2-Aksungur)
Subsonic deep strike flying wing stealth UCAVs are produced by TAI (Anka-3)

You can not compare Aksungur with Akinci. One is powered by internal combustion diesel engine, the other by a high powered turboprop. There is a version of Akinci with twin TEI-PD170 engines. It’s performance is not great, apart from it’s longer endurance. Akinci comes to its own especially with the twin 850HP turboprops.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I don't fully understand the specific benefits of the Aksungur drone. It seems like a platform that is uncompromisingly optimised for endurance, but without offering a payload capacity or system diversity that even comes close to the level of the Akinci.

In my view, it would have made more strategic sense for TAI to develop a smaller "Global Hawk-class" drone – that is, a dedicated high-performance reconnaissance and espionage UAV optimised exclusively for ISR missions. With AI-322F engines and later a conversion to TEI-TF6000 or TF10000, it would have been possible to create a true high-altitude and high-speed platform.

Currently, there are many Turkish combat drones that can also perform reconnaissance tasks, but not a single platform designed purely for strategic ISR. Perhaps the Anka-S comes closest to this approach; it has been chosen very often for such missions, but even it does not achieve the flight altitude or speed of a turbofan-powered HALE system.
Akinci, on the other hand, is too large and not optimised for covert missions.

I also do not see the Anka-3 as a sole replacement for a true strategic reconnaissance platform – unless the design is made so modular that it can also be used as a pure stealth ISR UAV in the future.

However, a compact Global Hawk equivalent would be ideal.

 

[Radko]

Can we clear this topic from engine talks? I am bored of seeing the same thing every 2 weeks

 

[begturan]

When I look at the comments made, I see that it is impossible for Baykar Motor to develop a 20,000 lb engine, the possibility that they are working on 2xTF10000 is reasonable in the medium/short term. Logically, even if this Baykar engine gets technical support from sich and TEI, it is futile to expect it to run before it can crawl and walk.

Two 10,000 lb engines will provide an extra payload, more fuel, and greater maneuverability. The aircraft will accelerate from subsonic to hypersonic speeds, achieving faster climb, better maneuverability, and higher altitude.

This will give Kızılelma deeper capabilities in its operations with Kaan, especially in terms of range, and will significantly reduce Kaan's workload. More options in flexible payload decoy/logistics/munition/EW combinations.

 

[Merzifonlu]

I’m curious about something that hasn’t come up in this discussion. Baykar CEO Haluk Bayraktar said, “We will also produce the engine of Kızılelma,” but he didn’t say, “We will develop and produce the engine of Kızılelma.” Am I misremembering? Can someone confirm?

If it’s just about production, they could potentially manufacture the TF-10000 engine themselves under a license from TEI. And if the SSB covered the development costs for the TF-10000, they might be able to produce it directly.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I’m curious about something that hasn’t come up in this discussion. Baykar CEO Haluk Bayraktar said, “We will also produce the engine of Kızılelma,” but he didn’t say, “We will develop and produce the engine of Kızılelma.” Am I misremembering? Can someone confirm?

If it’s just about production, they could potentially manufacture the TF-10000 engine themselves under a license from TEI. And if the SSB covered the development costs for the TF-10000, they might be able to produce it directly.

According to the 2024 interview notes below he is vague about the engine production of Baykar.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804079180746793218

Haluk Bayraktar: Bayraktar KIZILELMA'nın motoru dört yıla yerli olur

Baykar Genel Müdürü Haluk Bayraktar, Capital dergisine verdiği röportajda, şirketin üzerinde çalıştığı en önemli proje olan Bayraktar Kızılelma İnsansız Savaş Uçağı'na 1 milyar dolar kaynak ayırdıklarını açıkladı.

archive.gdh.digital

He says they have decided to allocate 300 million dollars to engine development of Akinci and KE. But in another media notes he says that includes the 200+ TB2 engines they intend to produce every year in house. This engine is a small internal combustion engine that will replace the Rotax they are currently using for the TB2s.

Then he says the engine of KE will be ready and be an indigenous one within 4 years. He does not specifically say Baykar will be producing it.
We all know to develop and produce a turbofan like TF6000/10000 will take at least 10 years and will cost a lot more than that 300 million.
It means that the ongoing programme with current Ukranian engine propelling KE, will be indigenised by replacing it with TF10000.
The TF6000 is a capable engine too and will most likely suffice for KE. But if we want it to carry more payload at take off and be able to go supersonic when required, then TF10000 is the right choice.

 

[Quasar]

According to the 2024 interview notes below he is vague about the engine production of Baykar.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804079180746793218

Haluk Bayraktar: Bayraktar KIZILELMA'nın motoru dört yıla yerli olur

Baykar Genel Müdürü Haluk Bayraktar, Capital dergisine verdiği röportajda, şirketin üzerinde çalıştığı en önemli proje olan Bayraktar Kızılelma İnsansız Savaş Uçağı'na 1 milyar dolar kaynak ayırdıklarını açıkladı.

archive.gdh.digital

He says they have decided to allocate 300 million dollars to engine development of Akinci and KE. But in another media notes he says that includes the 200+ TB2 engines they intend to produce every year in house. This engine is a small internal combustion engine that will replace the Rotax they are currently using for the TB2s.

Then he says the engine of KE will be ready and be an indigenous one within 4 years. He does not specifically say Baykar will be producing it.
We all know to develop and produce a turbofan like TF6000/10000 will take at least 10 years and will cost a lot more than that 300 million.
It means that the ongoing programme with current Ukranian engine propelling KE, will be indigenised by replacing it with TF10000.
The TF6000 is a capable engine too and will most likely suffice for KE. But if we want it to carry more payload at take off and be able to go supersonic when required, then TF10000 is the right choice.

is bypass ratio of TF 6000 - TF 10000 an effecting factor for the envisioned role of KIZILELMA?

 

[Sanchez]

According to the 2024 interview notes below he is vague about the engine production of Baykar.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1804079180746793218

Haluk Bayraktar: Bayraktar KIZILELMA'nın motoru dört yıla yerli olur

Baykar Genel Müdürü Haluk Bayraktar, Capital dergisine verdiği röportajda, şirketin üzerinde çalıştığı en önemli proje olan Bayraktar Kızılelma İnsansız Savaş Uçağı'na 1 milyar dolar kaynak ayırdıklarını açıkladı.

archive.gdh.digital

He says they have decided to allocate 300 million dollars to engine development of Akinci and KE. But in another media notes he says that includes the 200+ TB2 engines they intend to produce every year in house. This engine is a small internal combustion engine that will replace the Rotax they are currently using for the TB2s.

Then he says the engine of KE will be ready and be an indigenous one within 4 years. He does not specifically say Baykar will be producing it.
We all know to develop and produce a turbofan like TF6000/10000 will take at least 10 years and will cost a lot more than that 300 million.
It means that the ongoing programme with current Ukranian engine propelling KE, will be indigenised by replacing it with TF10000.
The TF6000 is a capable engine too and will most likely suffice for KE. But if we want it to carry more payload at take off and be able to go supersonic when required, then TF10000 is the right choice.

Back to Erdoğan statement from 2023:

"President Erdoğan:

Now they are conducting the final tests of the Kızılelma. The challenge we have to overcome is to produce our own indigenous engine...

Aselsan has a burden here: camera production. Unfortunately, engine production takes five years. In this process, we have to import engines"

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1727268458130506165

Full rate production for TF6000 confirmed as 5 years?

2028 for KE with TF6K makes sense.

 

[Strong AI]

2028 for KE with TF6K makes sense.

I mean anything is possible, but...

The TF6000 is currently undergoing maturation testing. In terms of power, we've surpassed the power levels of the imported engines used in the first two Kızılelma prototypes. Thank God, we’ve reached those power levels. Of course, there’s still work to be done to get it ready for flight, but right now, we’ve shifted the focus from the TF6000 to the TF10000, because Kızılelma has now transitioned to an afterburning engine, as communicated to us.

You know, in their third prototype, they moved to an afterburning engine. So we prioritized the TF10000 over the TF6000 and are currently working on that.

 

[Yasar_TR]

is bypass ratio of TF 6000 - TF 10000 an effecting factor for the envisioned role of KIZILELMA?

Yes. Although both engines are classed as low bypass engines, their bypass ratios are slightly higher than most low bypass engines of their peers. In fact the TF6000 has slightly higher bypass ratio than TF10000 if we look at their individual specs (1:1.08 for TF6000 and 1:1.00 for TF10000)
By increasing the amount of cold air going round the engine, they are decreasing the IR signature of the plane and the nozzle. Hence making it stealthier. It will be an optimised engine for the the altitudes that KE will operate. At denser air altitudes this engine will give a more efficient performance if compared to other similarly rated engines, in addition to its stealthier signature.

 

[Quasar]

Yes. Although both engines are classed as low bypass engines, their bypass ratios are slightly higher than most low bypass engines of their peers. In fact the TF6000 has slightly higher bypass ratio than TF10000 if we look at their individual specs (1:1.08 for TF6000 and 1:1.00 for TF10000)
By increasing the amount of cold air going round the engine, they are decreasing the IR signature of the plane and the nozzle. Hence making it stealthier. It will be an optimised engine for the the altitudes that KE will operate. At denser air altitudes this engine will give a more efficient performance if compared to other similarly rated engines, in addition to its stealthier signature.

for ANKA 3 TF 6000 is ideal for efficient performance yet for KIZILELMA I have concerns frankly, in the futture IF we are seeking for high performance naturlly significantly lower bypass ratio is the norm??? but sure it does not mean TF 6000-10000 is inadequate.... at the end this is what we have and safer path to follow for our first turbofan engine?

 

[Yasar_TR]

for ANKA 3 TF 6000 is ideal for efficient performance yet for KIZILELMA I have concerns frankly, in the futture IF we are seeking for high performance naturlly significantly lower bypass is the norm??? but sure it does not mean TF 6000-10000 is inadequate.... at the end this is what we have and safer path to follow for our first turbofan engine?

Anka-3 is a subsonic plane. So it doesn’t need TF10000. But if you want to take off with extra load TF10000 would help.
For KE , TF6000 could be enough too. After all many fighter jets spend most of their time in subsonic domain. I doubt we would be using KE in dogfights or in conditions where it needs to evade a2a missiles. Being a stealthy design it would be used to fire long range a2a missiles and stand-off air to ground munitions without being detected by ground and enemy radar systems.

 

[Quasar]

just wishfull thinking but still in addition to HÜRJET getting some extra F 404 for KIZILELMA would be interesting

OR

1- F 404 max diameter is 89 cm

2- TF 6000 - 10000 86 cm - 87 cm respectivly

a new domestic turbofan for Hürjet,Kızılema or even more.... ok ok as I said just wisfull thinking

at least dimensional resemblence is undeniable

 

[Pokemonte13]

Does anyone know the total payload capacity of kizilelma in this current version? They said they would integrate 300 ER on it and we saw it fly with sadak 4T which has a maximum weight with payload of 740kg.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1991444702030446888

 

[Zafer]

Single engine, twin engine configurations are classic but what about triples. China opened the doors for it. Imagine an Anka3 with triple engines, also mixing TF6 & TF10 engines. A TF10 in the middle with twin TF6 on the sides. This can give more power when needed. A similar aproach with Kızılelma can bring new capabilities.

 

[Afif]

Single engine, twin engine configurations are classic but what about triples. China opened the doors for it. Imagine an Anka3 with triple engines, also mixing TF6 & TF10 engines. A TF10 in the middle with twin TF6 on the sides. This can give more power when needed. A similar aproach with Kızılelma can bring new capabilities.

China's triple engine solution is a unique case where the manned aircraft in question is excepted to have an MTOW of 50 tonnes.

 

[Zafer]

China's triple engine solution is a unique case where the manned aircraft in question is excepted to have an MTOW of 50 tonnes.

Unique for how long, depends on who breaks the tradition next. It is about making the best use of available components to expand the envelope. If making another engine is unlikely making an unortodox plane becomes likely. It is the newfound wide designspace of the planes that bow to noman.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1991942955339554886

Twin engine KE would look so good.

 

[Pokemonte13]

Nice Mockup but twin engine Kizilelma and anka 3 would be much bigger plus anka 3 still lacks its exhaust nozzle