TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

[Pilatino]

Produce 1 million suicide drones of various capacities and Israel cannot afford to start a war against you. Cheap solution really to whatever advantages the enemy has.

The Iranian war with ballistic missiles and "dumb"suicide drones and nothing else is able to create absolute havoc for the USA, let alone Israel.

Yes but ballistic missiles are not cheap, Iranians mass produced those cuz they had no any other option to project power around. Ballistic Missiles are like sledgehammers but K2 is a scapel. You can evaise from a hammer somehow or you can't swing that hammer non-stop if you are not like iran (No any other option and have natural reserves to keep the momentum with it despite all the odds like embargoes etc.)... However you can swing a scapel without any real effort and when it hits can be deadlier than a hammer in most cases. These are just my two cents btw and doesn't change the need of balance as in every aspect of life.

 

[Huelague]

What is the endurance of K2?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Shahed does not have communication or cameras. It relies on INS and russian Glanoss + chineese Baidu to go to a specific target.
So, EW will not work with them. Had they had a simple camera for geolocation, then even GPS spoofing would not have worked.
They are designed specifically to avoid very strong American EW, hence why USA + Isreal are using very expensive hardkill methods to take them down.

Bro, Electronic Warfare (EW) will have significant effects on both GPS and Inertial Navigation Systems (INS)
.As the name suggests it affects electronic equipment. Both GPS and INS contain electronic systems.
GPS signals are weak signals and the electronic systems receiving it can be jammed. They can also be spoofed.
INS is inherently EW proof on the surface. But it too can be spoofed and effected by intricate and powerful EW. INS uses gyros and accelerometers (an electro mechanical device). In most drones like Shaheed, they work together with GPS. So they can be spoofed.
Only INS that are used in very sophisticated ICBMs and really expensive seeker heads are not affected by EW.

Apparently, Ukraine is using really fast FPV drones to shoot down Shaheeds.

What are the Ukrainian drone interceptors sent to counter Iranian attacks?

Ukraine has battle experience with Iranian-made Shahed drones and has mass-produced cheap interceptors.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[boredaf]

Hence, these drones must not cost more than the Shahed, i.e. about 10k$.

Shahed doesn't cost that low mate, and this one carries as much firepower as 4 of those. This is not a Shahed/Geran copy. This carries a warhead equivalent of a MK-83 bomb, which weighs 1000 pounds, or about 450 kgs. So, using this is like dropping a MK-83 from 2000 km away, with precision guidance. If I had to guess, I would say it has 200 kg of insensitive explosive with some sort of prescored fragmentation sleeve instead of just steel or tungsten balls around it to save weight and if it explodes in the air, it would shred the fuck out of everything in a very good range even outside the blast zone.

And making that one is possibly the easiest thing in the world. TEI already produces the same engine as used in Gerans, PG-50 which is the same as the German engine Iranians copied, strap that to an aerodynamic body with 50 kg warhead and enough fuel and you have your Shahed.

Apparently, Ukraine is using really fast FPV drones to shoot down Shaheeds.

Russia is using something similar, I've seen one of their solution literally gets launched from something like a gun.

 

[Afif]

Shahed doesn't cost that low mate, and this one carries as much firepower as 4 of those. This is not a Shahed/Geran copy. This carries a warhead equivalent of a MK-83 bomb, which weighs 1000 pounds, or about 450 kgs. So, using this is like dropping a MK-83 from 2000 km away, with precision guidance. If I had to guess, I would say it has 200 kg of insensitive explosive with some sort of prescored fragmentation sleeve instead of just steel or tungsten balls around it to save weight and if it explodes in the air, it would shred the fuck out of everything in a very good range even outside the blast zone.

And making that one is possibly the easiest thing in the world. TEI already produces the same engine as used in Gerans, PG-50 which is the same as the German engine Iranians copied, strap that to an aerodynamic body with 50 kg warhead and enough fuel and you have your Shahed.


Russia is using something similar, I've seen one of their solution literally gets launched from something like a gun.

Bro, its total warhead weight is 200kg. Not the explosive inside the warhead.

 

[MonteCarlo]

Kızılelma Teber and LGK-82 firing test. It was conducted by the prototype featuring Toygun so I would assume it did its own laser illumination too. Hopefully IWB tests at least for these type free fall munitions will follow soon

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2033093116853407943

 

[Merzifonlu]

I believe we are currently in a transitional phase in drone warfare. Within five years, we will start countering drones with drones and missiles with missiles. Then, economic sustainability in defensive warfare will begin to emerge a little bit. The current position is illogical; we're deploying F16s to shoot down $10,000 drones.

Meanwhile, when will Kızılelma start firing these munitions from its internal weapon bay? This jet-powered drone is urgently needed.

 

[Sanchez]

Kızılelma Teber and LGK-82 firing test. It was conducted by the prototype featuring Toygun so I would assume it did its own laser illumination too. Hopefully IWB tests at least for these type free fall munitions will follow soon

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2033093116853407943

EOTS show off here is more important than the munitions launches; great capability. Looks like the LGK might have missed the designated mark.

The current position is illogical; we're deploying F16s to shoot down $10,000 drones.

American way of using APKWS on F-16s currently is the cheapest way to shoot down kamikaze drones before terminal phase. They can carry upwards of 14/28 guided rockets per aircraft. Engaging these drones is still a hard task. They are small and slow, gun kills are very hard for high performance aircraft.

An F-16 will in the medium term still have much shorter turnaround time than a drone like KE. An F-16 is also not that expensive to maintain for any country of our caliber; we spend 3 trillion liras per year to pay for annual interest payments; 15k/hour to defend against drones is kiddie numbers.

Events from january with drones coming from black sea; that's an interesting situation. We do not have specific anti-drone QRA flights ready. We have F-16s in various air bases on QRA, ready on the tarmac to answer against any air threats with best aircraft and missiles we have. Those are there to answer any threat; a single drone or an unexpected enemy fighter package. On the contrary, employing QRA KEs armed with anti drone munition along with our F-16s is another cost item that will cost money.

Meanwhile, when will Kızılelma start firing these munitions from its internal weapon bay?

Soon.

 

[Merzifonlu]

American way of using APKWS on F-16s currently is the cheapest way to shoot down kamikaze drones before terminal phase.

Actually, I was referring to the Akıncı. If it has radar and cost-effective missiles, it would be suitable for that task. Because iAkıncı can stay in the air for a relatively long time while on patrol duty.

 

[Sanchez]

Actually, I was referring to the Akıncı. If it has radar and cost-effective missiles, it would be suitable for that task. Because iAkıncı can stay in the air for a relatively long time while on patrol duty.

In an ideal world you use radars on the ground and in air(like in an Akıncı) to detect them and use fast moving high performance jets with pilots that can make on the spot decisions to undertake kill missions.

 

[boredaf]

Bro, its total warhead weight is 200kg. Not the explosive inside the warhead.

This isn't a MK bomb that needs to be put in a heavy steel casing mate, the whole body of the drone is already a casing, it is a kamikaze drone.

 

[Afif]

This isn't a MK bomb that needs to be put in a heavy steel casing mate, the whole body of the drone is already a casing, it is a kamikaze drone.

Yes, but UAVs body is not strong metal. That acts as penetrating sharpnel.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Looks like the LGK might have missed the designated mark.

Compared to US laser targeted missiles and even MAM-L firings, this is a poor shot. Baykar needs to address this deficiency. On top of it this was a shot on a stationary target. Laser guidance normally is good for moving targets.

 

[Sanchez]

Compared to US laser targeted missiles and even MAM-L firings, this is a poor shot. Baykar needs to address this deficiency. On top of it this was a shot on a stationary target. Laser guidance normally is good for moving targets.

Bomb and sight is from Aselsan; doubt it's much to do with Baykar. Of course stuff will be done to address them. They work hand in hand always.

 

[Mis_TR_Like]

Compared to US laser targeted missiles and even MAM-L firings, this is a poor shot. Baykar needs to address this deficiency. On top of it this was a shot on a stationary target. Laser guidance normally is good for moving targets.

Bomb and sight is from Aselsan; doubt it's much to do with Baykar. Of course stuff will be done to address them. They work hand in hand always.

It's working as intended. LGK's CEP is < 10 meters. Compare that to GÖZDE, which is < 3. TEBER is also < 3, hence why it is more accurate in the video.

I'm pretty sure LGK is a lower cost conversion kit, whereas TEBER and GÖZDE are more expensive, yet more accurate.

It wouldn't necessarily matter in most cases unless you're hitting a fortified target or a moving naval vessel, as the blast radius is relatively large.

 

[Kitra]

Bro, Electronic Warfare (EW) will have significant effects on both GPS and Inertial Navigation Systems (INS)
.As the name suggests it affects electronic equipment. Both GPS and INS contain electronic systems.
GPS signals are weak signals and the electronic systems receiving it can be jammed. They can also be spoofed.
INS is inherently EW proof on the surface. But it too can be spoofed and effected by intricate and powerful EW. INS uses gyros and accelerometers (an electro mechanical device). In most drones like Shaheed, they work together with GPS. So they can be spoofed.
Only INS that are used in very sophisticated ICBMs and really expensive seeker heads are not affected by EW.

Apparently, Ukraine is using really fast FPV drones to shoot down Shaheeds.

What are the Ukrainian drone interceptors sent to counter Iranian attacks?

Ukraine has battle experience with Iranian-made Shahed drones and has mass-produced cheap interceptors.

www.aljazeera.com

GPS spoofing was already mentioned in my reply as a weakness of Shahed.
To interfere with INS, you need EMP, which is a completely different beast compared to EW. To my understanding, nobody is using EMP in any ongoing conflicts. The inherent disadvantage of INS is the drift of around 1-5%. So, you could be off by 5km if you lose your GPS coordinates 100km from the target. This was the reason why I suggested that any Turkish mass swarm suicide drone should have a cheap camera for geo-locating in a GPS-denied region.

For all practical purposes, Shahed is relatively robust against EW since it has so little electronic communication exposed to the outside.
But this is also its weakness.

The link you provided was also what I was referring to as the cheapest and most versatile solution against Shahed.

 

[Kitra]

Shahed doesn't cost that low mate, and this one carries as much firepower as 4 of those. This is not a Shahed/Geran copy. This carries a warhead equivalent of a MK-83 bomb, which weighs 1000 pounds, or about 450 kgs. So, using this is like dropping a MK-83 from 2000 km away, with precision guidance. If I had to guess, I would say it has 200 kg of insensitive explosive with some sort of prescored fragmentation sleeve instead of just steel or tungsten balls around it to save weight and if it explodes in the air, it would shred the fuck out of everything in a very good range even outside the blast zone.

And making that one is possibly the easiest thing in the world. TEI already produces the same engine as used in Gerans, PG-50 which is the same as the German engine Iranians copied, strap that to an aerodynamic body with 50 kg warhead and enough fuel and you have your Shahed.


Russia is using something similar, I've seen one of their solution literally gets launched from something like a gun.

The production cost of Shahed is most likely below 10k, but I know that people talk about 20-30k as well.
Producing these is obviously not difficult for TEI, as even an amateur could design something similar (excluding the explosives).
Youtube is even full of more advanced amateur-designed jet-powered drones. My intention was never to say that Shahed was advanced or difficult to design.

The issue I tried to highlight was that we need 100k drones that are cheap, EW proof, and highly destructive in our inventory today as the world is speed-running into a global war thanks to USA.

K2 is a good design, but it seems expensive to me to produce 100k of them. We need both the super cheap Shahed clone as well as K2 and everything else that we are doing.

 

[Kitra]

This isn't a MK bomb that needs to be put in a heavy steel casing mate, the whole body of the drone is already a casing, it is a kamikaze drone.

The video indicates that explosives can be on an external hardpoint.
See 0:12 and 7:30

 

[Yasar_TR]

Pls watch @Soldier30 ’s post #2524 below to see US laser guided missile accuracy.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Abi the topic is LGK-82 and its US equivalent is GBU-12. As we all can see sometimes those weapons don't hit perfectly.

My topic was laser guidance in general, not specific missile type. Laser guidance was invented by Texas Instruments in the 1960’s, to give pin point precision to guided munitions. It gives immunity from EW. It is ideal for hitting moving targets. The modern laser targeting uses pulse coded targeting which allows multiple targets to be hit by different missiles in the same area.

Laser guidance is used in missiles primarily for extreme precision, allowing weapons to hit specific, often moving, targets with high accuracy (often within metres) while minimising collateral damage.

If missiles are not hitting their targets accurately when guided by laser, then there is something wrong in the system. It could be the missile mechanical guidance systems, it could be the algorithms in the guidance, it could be the optical head, etc etc. if is not hitting it’s target in a test, then it needs to be corrected.

It is not easy to use laser guided missiles. Either the platform firing the munition or another drone has to hold the laser beam on the target or alternatively ground assets have to mark the target with a laser beam with great danger to themselves.
This is done so that the required high precision is obtained.
Yes! As per @Sanchez ’s post it is Aselsan that provides the seeker. But Aselsan here is the supplier of the kit to Baykar. It is up to Baykar to get them to sort out the problem.

Additionally, the tests are there to iron out problems, so that in real life they do not occur.