• Forum restore complete (see latest announcement thread)

TR UAV/UCAV Programs | Anka - series | Kızılelma | TB - series

Mis_TR_Like

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
1,962
Reactions
49 7,466
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Northern Cyprus
The one thing TSK is lacking is stealth platforms in the inventory.

Anka 3 and Kızılelma are almost ready, I think it would be best if both companies focus on these products and introduce inventory ready variants as soon as possible.

Baykar should double down on air to air and TUSAŞ should double down on air to ground and both should produce a few dozen of each. Of course there are probably hurdles still, but this is a priority.

We haven't heard much about Anka 3s air to air capabilities, but Kızılelma technically could be a very real threat to even F35s. A tailless drone with air to air capability will completely change the dynamics of the region, but one step at a time.
and before anyone tells me Kızılelma doesn't stand a chance, yes it's technically a way less capable aircraft than the F-35. There's also the engine problem.

But at the same time we can't say anything about the radar. The T/R module could indeed be enough. Also the IRST poses another question to how safe F35s will be.

Remember, Kızılelma is way cheaper and unmanned. It doesn't need to be the jack of all trades. If it can even take down a single F-35, that would be a huge physiological warfare hit to a foe.

It's not a KAAN, but it's sure better than any 4th gen jet at taking on F-35s.
 

Mis_TR_Like

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
1,962
Reactions
49 7,466
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Northern Cyprus
Until KAAN is ready, we need to make sure we have a stopgap. Aselsan's ground based systems will be just as important as any air platform in giving us the edge we need
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,233
Reactions
255 22,100
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
The one thing TSK is lacking is stealth platforms in the inventory.

Anka 3 and Kızılelma are almost ready, I think it would be best if both companies focus on these products and introduce inventory ready variants as soon as possible.

Baykar should double down on air to air and TUSAŞ should double down on air to ground and both should produce a few dozen of each. Of course there are probably hurdles still, but this is a priority.

We haven't heard much about Anka 3s air to air capabilities, but Kızılelma technically could be a very real threat to even F35s. A tailless drone with air to air capability will completely change the dynamics of the region, but one step at a time.
Stumbling block is TEI with their tf6000 and tf10000 engines.
We need those two engines being produced in quantity like yesterday.

They are too busy with tf35K at the moment
 

Zafer

Experienced member
Messages
5,613
Reactions
15 8,663
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Baykar signed up for a good number of Ukrainian engines and probably have a good number delivered already. TAI must have gotten some too. So they are probably good for around 50 units between them. TEI engines will probably take a year and a half to two years to be delivered in numbers. Not a bad start per se, TEI engines will be an upgrade too when they arrive. TEI is doing some kind of agile development and once certain milestones are passed focus will shift to the next product that need fast tracking. This approach will delay entry to service for the early products but allow the later products to be ready earlier.
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,233
Reactions
255 22,100
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
Anka-2 aka Aksungur is being upgraded. According to Demiroglu’s last statements the new version will have a 1250 kg payload and 60 hours flight endurance.

I wish they also made it clear how high these platforms would be able to fly at, with 1250kg payload and 60 hours flight endurance.

An empty plane or one with minimum payload, can stay in air for 60 hours if it is under 20000ft altitude. But can it do that with 1250kg load and at 40000ft altitude?

 
Last edited:

Mis_TR_Like

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
1,962
Reactions
49 7,466
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Northern Cyprus
Anka-2 aka Aksungur is being upgraded. According to Demiroglu’s last statements the new version will have a 1250 kg payload and 60 hours flight endurance.

I wish they also made it clear how high these platforms would be able to fly at, with 1250kg payload and 60 hours flight endurance.

An empty plane or one with minimum payload, can stay in air for 60 hours if it is under 20000ft altitude. But can it do that with 1250kg load and at 40000ft altitude?

Do we have a solution to 358s and the array of other missiles/munitions that have been plucking MALE UAVs out of the sky?

Yes sure, the whole point of MALE UAVs is their cheap and expendable, but rag tag terror groups now have the capability to counter them.

I know there's been some electronic countermeasures. I think larger UAVs like Aksungur should be fitted with a turret that launches ATOM. This all depends on price and weight, but these heavier drones need more protection, TB2s could probably do with softkill only.

The countermeasure turret also opens up a new avenue for the concept of an offensive turret for CAS.
 

boredaf

Experienced member
Messages
2,234
Solutions
1
Reactions
42 6,580
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
Do we have a solution to 358s and the array of other missiles/munitions that have been plucking MALE UAVs out of the sky?
Yes, range. Mam-L or other short range munitions shouldn't be used, at all, unless we are absolutely sure there are no anti-air of any kind. Use Eren, Tolun, UAV-230 or Roketsan's new mini cruise missile and keep the drone itself in safe airspace.

I think larger UAVs like Aksungur should be fitted with a turret that launches ATOM.
You can't just slap on a turret, you need sensors for detection of the incoming missile/drone, a targeting solution that can track it and then a turret that is omnidirectional so that it can actually shoot at the necessary direction. On top of all that, you need the extra energy generation for everything you put on the drone. Basically eating into what little payload capacity they have.
 

Mis_TR_Like

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
1,962
Reactions
49 7,466
Nation of residence
Australia
Nation of origin
Northern Cyprus
Yes, range. Mam-L or other short range munitions shouldn't be used, at all, unless we are absolutely sure there are no anti-air of any kind. Use Eren, Tolun, UAV-230 or Roketsan's new mini cruise missile and keep the drone itself in safe airspace.
The problem with that is launchers for 358 are small and can be hidden in caves and small buildings. We're not talking about truck mounted systems anymore. If rag tag militias can down dozens of drones an actual military would have tons more distributed across their forces. Standoff weapons are great, but you can't fight a whole war with them. What made the Azerbaijan-Armenia war so one sided was not only the strategy and tactics that Azerbaijan used, but also the fact that they had their drones flying over the Armenian military 24/7, picking apart their forces with MAM-Ls with impunity. That combined with the ground assault was simply unstoppable. If you're relying on standoff weapons then not only is that more costly, but more importantly, you're enemies have the luxury to regroup and resupply, you don't have true control of the skies over their heads.

You can't just slap on a turret, you need sensors for detection of the incoming missile/drone, a targeting solution that can track it and then a turret that is omnidirectional so that it can actually shoot at the necessary direction. On top of all that, you need the extra energy generation for everything you put on the drone. Basically eating into what little payload capacity they have.
Valid points. DIRCM systems would be similarly difficult to add to MALE UAVs.

Perhaps SPPOD is all that's needed, but not too sure how good flares would be against modern IR missiles/munitions.
 

Şok Tedavisi

Active member
Messages
110
Reactions
184
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
The one thing TSK is lacking is stealth platforms in the inventory.

Anka 3 and Kızılelma are almost ready, I think it would be best if both companies focus on these products and introduce inventory ready variants as soon as possible.

Baykar should double down on air to air and TUSAŞ should double down on air to ground and both should produce a few dozen of each. Of course there are probably hurdles still, but this is a priority.

We haven't heard much about Anka 3s air to air capabilities, but Kızılelma technically could be a very real threat to even F35s. A tailless drone with air to air capability will completely change the dynamics of the region, but one step at a time.
KE is not getting close anywhere to shooting down F35, It's not even stealth and without good engine supply they are not going to mass produce it.
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,233
Reactions
255 22,100
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
KE is not getting close anywhere to shooting down F35, It's not even stealth and without good engine supply they are not going to mass produce it.
Bro, as it is, KE is probably is as stealthy as the Kaan today.
Without RAM paint application and non stealthy engines, both can not be put against any fully fledged stealthy plane like F35.

But that doesn’t mean that they will be like that all the time. KE is designed as a low observable plane. It has IWBs to allow it to stay LO when not in delivery mode.
Yes the engine it has at the moment probably lets it down big time both from low observability point and from power delivery point. But with a TF10000 power plant, it should come back to its own and be competent enough for most battle situations.

So! Come on TEI ! Get your finger out and provide the KE and Anka-3 with the necessary engines that will make them show what they are meant to do..
 
Last edited:

Şok Tedavisi

Active member
Messages
110
Reactions
184
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Bro, as it is, KE is probably is as stealthy as the Kaan today.
Without RAM paint application and non stealthy engines, both can not be put against any fully fledged stealthy plane like F35.

But that doesn’t mean that they will be like that all the time. KE is designed as a low observable plane. It has IWBs to allow it to stay LO when not in delivery mode.
Yes the engine it has at the moment probably lets it down big time both from low observability point and from power delivery point. But with a TF10000 power plant, it should come back to its own and be competent enough for most battle situations.

So! Come on TEI ! Get your finger out and provide the KE and Anka-3 with the necessary engines that will make them show what they are meant to do.
Still there is no way KE is going to win a BVR engagement against F35, maybe against 4th gen fighters but there is no way, If that was the case we could put aesa radar onto everything and they would go "taraya taraya".

I have my hopes high for the Anka 3 mark my word It will be more succesful than KE, I believe in Tusas quality.
 

dBSPL

Experienced member
Think Tank Analyst
DefenceHub Ambassador
Messages
2,857
Reactions
123 14,467
Nation of residence
Turkey
Nation of origin
Turkey
Sadly both payloads seem to surpass the limits, especially for the hunter which requires a long endurance.

Typically for work-ability we should divide them in three: Carrier platform (sonobuoys), A relay + ESM Node, A SAR platform and lastly the killer platform. The killer should also be agile and flow low&slow near the surface (which suits the TB3 but may as well require additional sensors) to launch the torpedo. Honestly too much of distribution that yields to inefficiency and elevated number of deck operations, which takes us to a new platform. We need a ship based drone with higher payload. Also note that, a few sonobuoys are not sufficient. There should be at least a few dozens laid on the field.

Moreover in doctrinal approach a LHD or AC shouldn't be occupied with ASW operations, it is the logic dictating it. It could support the destroyers, frigates in ASW operations nonetheless and be a relay node for MIMO integration of sonobuoys with ASW equipped ships.

Also, This the higher payload-land based TB3 version which Navy intends to couple with manned MPAs as forward nodes in laying sonobuoys, relaying the sonobuoy comms and SAR scanning within the hot zones.
Yes, when I did a more careful calculation, I noticed a discrepancy. 280 kg is the TB3's total payload capacity, not what's left after the EO camera, sonobuoy pods, MAD, and SAR are already loaded. Once you add those up (roughly 250-260 kg by my own numbers), there is realistically 20-30 kg left, not enough for a proper ESM suite plus AIS receiver. So yes, the Hunter config as I wrote it does not fit inside a single TB3, full stop. That is a math error on my part.

Given that, the three-way (or four-way) split you propose is basically correct, and I do not think it undermines the concept, it corrects it. Where I would push back is on the conclusion that this distribution automatically means the concept is inefficient enough to require a new, higher-payload ship-based platform. TB3 is already deck-qualified, already in the inventory, and already cheap relative to a clean-sheet naval UCAV program. A wing of four TB3s, each carrying one dedicated fit (sonobuoy layer, ESM/relay node, SAR, killer with ORKA), costs less airframe-development risk than waiting for a bigger platform, even if it means more deck cycles. The deck-ops penalty is real, but it is a tempo problem, not a feasibility problem, and TCG Anadolu's flight deck was sized with multiple simultaneous TB3 operations in mind from the start. Or, more accurately, TB3 itself was developed specifically around TCG Anadolu's operating constraints.

On sonobuoy count, agreed without reservation. Two 4-cell pods on one airframe was never meant to represent a complete field. The realistic employment model is cumulative: TB3's endurance lets it lay a partial pattern, return, rearm, and go back out, or hand off to a second airframe already airborne, building the field over several sorties rather than one. A few dozen buoys on station is the right order of magnitude, and that number only comes from stacking sorties, not from a single aircraft's pod count.

On doctrine, I think we actually agree more than the disagreement suggests. I was not arguing that TCG Anadolu should own an organic ASW kill chain, and if my post read that way, that is on the phrasing. The role I see for a TB3 ASW wing is closer to what you are describing: a forward sensor and relay layer, laying and monitoring a distributed sonobuoy field, feeding that picture back via MIMO-style integration to ASW-equipped frigates and destroyers, who retain the weapon-release decision. The ORKA-armed "killer" variant is the one part of this that does put a kill capability on the UCAV itself, and that is worth separating out as a distinct, more contentious piece of the concept rather than folding it into the sensor/relay argument. A carrier air wing doing search, classification, and cueing is a very different claim from a carrier air wing doing prosecution.

The land-based, higher-payload TB3 variant you mention is worth pulling into this too. If that version is meant to work alongside manned MPAs as forward nodes for buoy-laying, relay, and SAR in contested zones, it suggests Baykar and the Navy are already thinking in the distributed-node direction rather than a single do-everything airframe, which lines up with the correction above better than my original post did.

What I was really trying to show with the original post, math error aside, is that TB3 has genuine potential to play a highly effective role in the underwater tactical picture of the TCG Anadolu task group, not as a standalone ASW kill chain, but as the forward sensing and relay layer that makes the surface combatants' ASW picture sharper and faster than it would be without it. That is the part of the argument I still stand behind.
 

Yasar_TR

Experienced member
Staff member
Administrator
Messages
4,233
Reactions
255 22,100
Nation of residence
United Kingdom
Nation of origin
Turkey
It is interesting that Baykar, on their KE site clearly state :

TAKING OFF AND LANDING ON SHORT-RUNWAY VESSELS
Bayraktar KIZILELMA’s capability to operate on short-runway ships, such as Türkiye’s TCG Anadolu, provides a strategic advantage in overseas missions and in the defense of the Blue Homeland.


Yet to date they have not openly tested any of these capabilities of KE neither on TCG Anadolu nor on land. However they keep placing KE on TCG Anadolu in defence fairs, like in the latest teknofest 2026.

1787413287113.jpeg




If they can pull a rabbit out of a hat like they did with TB3, it would be invaluable to the assault and defence capability of the TCG Anadolu.

All I can say right now is : put your money where your mouth is and show it to us that KE can take off and land on TCG Anadolu.
instead of advertising it wrongly on this amphibious assault platform.

In his defence, though, Mr Bayraktar had earlier said that TCG Anadolu needed cable arrester to land a plane like KE.
It may also need a very powerful engine like tf10000 to take off.
 
Top Bottom