Live Conflict Ukraine-Russia War

Gary

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As for the Kinzhal doing 20+G, because its a solid fueled rocket that burned out too quickly, once you maneuver doing high G moves, you lost energy pretty quickly and speed too, probabaly reducing it to supersonic or even subsonic speed. The U.S try to fix this problem with the HAWC air breathing hypersonic missile giving more sustained thrust during flight and 3 already tested in '21,'22 and '23 but not yet operationally fielded. Again another question need to be raised on how Russia field such thing so fast and without hiccups.

There's alsoa question if the missile body could bear the extremely high G load. 30+G in a mach 5 plus flying object is a lot, especially if they're doing it multiple times in the air.

The only reason why Kinzhal is yet to be intercepted is the simple fact that no high altitude interceptor that is yet to be fielded to counter these. IRIS-T, AIM-120 and RBS-70 aren't designed for very high speed, very high altitude target.

Things would get pretty interesting once PAC-3 enters the battlefield.
 
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Fuzuli NL

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removed my 2nd post to have my 3rd post response to be to you:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: View attachment 54829

View attachment 54830
How many of those were shot by Pantsy?
UCAVs cheap as peanuts compared to "very advanced systems" which cost an arm and a leg. Most importantly, some were fried with their crew inside and active radar :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

PS: How many of these wonder systems were exported after the 44-day war?
 

Gary

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The examples you give are exceptions to the rule, when low level officers made some terrible things. They are not huge campaigns of turning cities into rubble sanctioned by the higher ups. While the Americans are no angels, their military doctrine is not about killing everything indiscriminately in order to terrify the enemy.

Look at Frankfurt, Berlin at the end of WW2 or Hiroshima and Nagasaki, look at Hanoi or look at the cities controlled by Isis in Iraq and Syria and you have the same conclusion...levelling up cities in order to win is part of U.S military strategy.

I mean there's nothing wrong with that, as long as you don't complain only Russia is doing this.😂

Just give up already, the more you confront me, the worse you look in the end.
And also, the atrocities you mentioned were uncovered by Western media, so you know about them because the media in the West is more independent and presents even the negative things. You will never see Russian media present the crimes and abuses of the Russian military.

So what ? does Western media has the means to punish the perpetrators ? Does people in the West even care their soldier does that (I mean does the absolute majority cares and try to do something to punish them ?)


You have no idea about how evil Russia is, this is why you compare it with the West.
I absolutely do, I follow the Russian campaign in Syria, I also happens to read a lot about Russian conduct in Chechnya.

And guess what ?

  • Mass arrest
  • Extrajudical killing
  • Mass rape and sex slavery
  • Child killing
  • Forced confession
  • Torture
All also happens in countries invaded by the west in the same degree.

In WW2, my country has fought on both sides, first with the Germans against the Soviets and then with the Soviets against the Germans. All the elederly people who lived during the war had the same stories: the Germans were fair, they traded with the local peasants and were disciplined while the Russians were brutish, they stole, raped and abused everyone.

That's you and for you only, many people which was not subjugated by the Russians but by the U.S will have the reverse opinion on such.
There was even a saying regarding the friendship with the Russians. It was like that: “Give me your watch, give me your wife, this is what camaraderie means.” (because Russians were known for confiscating watches and for raping women).

The U.S is known into turning Abu Ghraib into sex slave dungeon where they rape women and men alike, the French kidnapped Algerian women and send them into prostitution camps for French soldiers in Viet Nam....so what ????


I have yet to see Russia legalizing things like this lmao. imagine how bad you people are when even Russia has no such things.
Historically we had conflicts with various powers (and we’ve also been bombed by the Americans in WW2), but nobody was as bad as the Russians. Imagine how awful you must be if people who lived during WW2 were saying Germans were like nobleban in comparison to you.

You know Ze Germans is busy in the war, if they win and you give them some time, they'll do the exact same thing as the Russians. Its hard to screw around while being squeezed by the Soviet and the Allies on two fronts.
 
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contricusc

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Look at Frankfurt, Berlin at the end of WW2 or Hiroshima and Nagasaki, look at Hanoi or look at the cities controlled by Isis in Iraq and Syria and you have the same conclusion...levelling up cities in order to win is part of U.S military strategy.

Again, you ignore what I said before, that the West has not done this in recent decades.

There is no denying that this type of war was done by everybody until a few decades ago. The big difference is that only Russia is still doing this in this century.

You mostly cite horrific acts done in the previous century. The thing is, the West has made some progress and a lot of the bad stuff it did in the past is no longer permitted, while Russia has remained the same.

I am just saying that Russia is not willing to become civilized, and continues to act in the same barbaric ways of the colonial times.
 

Gary

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Again, you ignore what I said before, that the West has not done this in recent decades.
Mosul...and this is from 2017. And 2017 is like less than a decade ago. If the U.S would find itself in a situation where its enemy does not yield again in the future, the US will do the same thing again.

5651369de5c34ad7a13689e404265ba0_8.jpeg


Raqqa, 2017...also in this decade, 1600 civillians died after U.S bombardment according to Amnesty

syria-raqqa-destruction2-ap-mem-171020_hpMain_11_16x9_992.jpg

There is no denying that this type of war was done by everybody until a few decades ago. The big difference is that only Russia is still doing this in this century.
I think 2003 is in this century as well. , reminded me of Kyiv 2022.

You mostly cite horrific acts done in the previous century. The thing is, the West has made some progress and a lot of the bad stuff it did in the past is no longer permitted, while Russia has remained the same.
That is not progress, I said it again. If the U.S or the West ever meet an opposition that doesn't yield in the battlefield again in the future, they will brought those war into their cities (just like Russians), we saw this in Iraq and Syria. Where Isis is not yet easily defeated so the U.S started a bombing campaign in the cities Isis controlled, and that war is less than a decade ago. 6 years to be exact.

When Russia bombed Kyiv, it does so because it finds Ukraine is harder to crack then earlier thought. So in the end they did Just like what the U.S did throughout history, that is bring the war to the children and women behind the frontline that is in the cities in order to put pressure to frontline troops.

So while Russia is not moral, nobody is moral in the end. So Russian bombing of Kyiv and other Ukrainian cities is quite justified because Ukraine wouldn't yield and because everyone is doing it. So there's no need to hide behind "Russia is uncivilized".

In fact my friend Nilgiri posted this in the Geopolitcs thread about what the American thinks when they bombed their enemy to ashes...long story short, they find it justified.




I am just saying that Russia is not willing to become civilized, and continues to act in the same barbaric ways of the colonial times.
So will the U.S and ALL countries that exist, if they find themselves unable to advance as easily expected.

People who have read your logic and mine should have come to the conclusion of what the West thinks of itself. If I'm the one doing it, that's fine, but everyone else doing it, its barbaric and unjustified.

And this is why bragging about openness in Western media is not something to be appreciated about, because for the Western world, when they heard the atrocities their troops had done, the reaction will be mostly justifying those actions because we are the West in the end and we are "democratic" LOL
 
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Kathirz

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contricusc

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Mosul...and this is from 2017. And 2017 is like less than a decade ago. If the U.S would find itself in a situation where its enemy does not yield again in the future, the US will do the same thing again.

Raqqa, 2017...also in this decade, 1600 civillians died after U.S bombardment according to Amnesty

Mosul and Raqqa were basically a military operation where the Iraq government was helped by a coalition of international forces to remove the cities from the hands of terrorists and liberate the people there.

That was not invading a country. The people in those cities were basically the hostages of a very cruel terrorist organization that didn’t negotiate and was unwilling to surrender. There was no other way to liberate those cities other than helping the Iraq government in the fight.

To compare Raqqa and Mosul to Mariupol and Bakhmut is absurd.

I think 2003 is in this century as well. , reminded me of Kyiv 2022.

Yes, the bombing of Baghdad was not very different from what happened in Kyiv. Please note that I never mentioned Kyiv in my examples of previous century war tactics. What I mentioned was the complete destruction of cities through artillery fire and bombing like what happened in Mariupol, Bakhmut, or Severodonetsk.
 

Gary

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Mosul and Raqqa were basically a military operation where the Iraq government was helped by a coalition of international forces to remove the cities from the hands of terrorists and liberate the people there.

That was not invading a country. The people in those cities were basically the hostages of a very cruel terrorist organization that didn’t negotiate and was unwilling to surrender. There was no other way to liberate those cities other than helping the Iraq government in the fight.

To compare Raqqa and Mosul to Mariupol and Bakhmut is absurd.

Lmao, the wider Iraq-syria theater of 2014-2017 is no different than the 2022-ongoing Ukraine war mainly because:

  1. It involves conventional army maneuvers
  2. Has clear Frontline
  3. Has clear PHYSICAL objective of which to HOLD and SEIZE territories.
Trying to portray the war against isis as a pure counter terrorist operation and not conventional war is akin to Putin portraying the Ukraine war as "Special Military Operations". LMAO. (I always knew that Putin and the West is basically the same anyway)

For the U.S to delegitimize ISIS claim as a country, it MUST deny ISIS governing people in the first place, and what better place to do governance than in cities ? Taking away the city under ISIS control equals taking away their legitimacy in governance and as we know to wrest control of cities under ISIS control requires the U.S to destroy entire cities, because they won't surrender.

So does for Putin, to delegitimize Zelensky and Ukraine as a country their objective is to deny a Ukrainian governance itself, which explains why they go for Kyiv, Kharkiv and Mariupol (all major Ukraine center of government) in the first place. And in the process to achieve that goal, just like the U.S they destroy entire cities because its the enemy wont yield.

See ? It's just the same no matter how you like to portray it.

In the end for both power to finish their intended objective, goes on to levelling of cities.
 
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Afif

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Lmao, the wider Iraq-syria theater of 2014-2017 is no different than the 2022-ongoing Ukraine war mainly because:

  1. It involves conventional army maneuvers
  2. Has clear Frontline
  3. Has clear PHYSICAL objective of which to HOLD and SEIZE territories.
Trying to portray the war against isis as a pure counter terrorist operation and not conventional war is akin to Putin portraying the Ukraine war as "Special Military Operations". LMAO. (I always knew that Putin and the West is basically the same anyway)

For the U.S to delegitimize ISIS claim as a country, it MUST deny ISIS governing people in the first place, and what better place to do governance than in cities ? Taking away the city under ISIS control equals taking away their legitimacy in governance and as we know to wrest control of cities under ISIS control requires the U.S to destroy entire cities, because they won't surrender.

So does for Putin, to delegitimize Zelensky and Ukraine as a country their objective is to deny a Ukrainian governance itself, which explains why they go for Kyiv, Kharkiv and Mariupol (all major Ukraine center of government) in the first place. And in the process to achieve that goal, just like the U.S they destroy entire cities because its the enemy wont yield.

See ? It's just the same no matter how you like to portray it.

In the end for both power to finish their intended objective, goes on to levelling of cities.
Bro, I didn't know you are that hardcore Realist. 😳
 

Afif

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What I'm typing is basically all common knowledge
But USA was giving the cities back to Iraqi government and ( and its people to some extent )
While putin is trying to take Ukraine for himself.

Method is similar, but the objectives were different.
 

Gary

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But USA was giving the cities back to Iraqi government and ( and its people to some extent )
While putin is trying to take Ukraine for himself.

Method is similar, but the objectives were different.
It was the method that contriusc like to make a case of difference between the two powers isn't it?

While objective...all war objective is the same...force people what to do when soft politics can't compel them.

In war there's only 2 party...friend and foe.
 

Mailman

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It was the method that contriusc like to make a case of difference between the two powers isn't it?

While objective...all war objective is the same...force people what to do when soft politics can't compel them.

In war there's only 2 party...friend and foe.
I do agree with the assumption that the war brings the worst out from humans, whether he or she belongs to so called West or not. I am not sure 100% about myself in extreme cases whether I will notice the thin line between good and evil and will stay on the bright side of it. I must agree with Gary, soldiers from "West" are performing often as badly as Russian ones in Ukraine. We are not so much better as we like to think and limitless power over enemy lives does fuck up most of us and our brains with no time.
Let's just agree on fact: war crimes against humans, whatever colour of skin or background they have, are bad. This gives us some sort of zero ground for further discussion. I also agree, despite this moral imperative, military powers often ignore this using whatever reason and one cannot count on it, being in danger zone. A likelihood of becoming responsible for war crimes is still too small to stop inappropriate behaviour.
Perhaps Ukrainian war will make this threat a bit more real, thanks to the surveillance technology we are able to exploit. Ukrainians are collecting such information very carefully, lets see whether they can make anyone pay fot this in future. At least they try in good faith.
There is difference though in governmental level regarding war crimes. I can assure that Russian soldiers even do not have clue what the war crime is, whilst American ones do get some training about it. Anyone can study Rules of Engagement training material for US Marines. 28 pages, try to remember those in case of imminent threat and apply them, eh? Still I would give some credits for this attempt, compared to dull rape and kill approach by our beloved eastern neighbours.
I consider this vague term "West" appropriate in this case because the situation in international relations resembles the term "Wild, wild West", denoting lawless period in Northern America in 19.-th century. There happened many murders nobody even knew about it, not talking about getting fair trial about it. I bet there were many Gary's trying to tell "this is the way how things are done", "take it as it is", "nobody can change that" and so forth. Try to do it today and you will get punished for sure. My personal hope is that over time we are moving toward more civilised international relations and world (not necessarily "West") will establish powerful enough international prosecution and court institutions to bring for example, mr. Putin under trial. There have been few cases, unfortunately not accessible for all countries.
 

Quasar

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Politics (especially modern politics) doesn't work like that. I do something bad =/= I'm guilty.

It all comes to, if my calculations are right, it will be either be right or a disaster. And in this case Putin's calculations = disaster, but what if Russian occupation of Ukraine is swift, I could argue that Putin has done the right thing.

Nurturing and/or supporting separatist group are not only a Russian thing, in fact so called EU member does the same dirty tricks with the Kurds or other outlawed quasi state. The Netherlands for example supported and nurtured Moluccan separatist or Sweden harboring Free Aceh Movement leaders.

Russia took over part of Donbass and arm its own army because it has the MEANS. So does the US arming the Peshmerga quasi army in Iraq because it has the means to do so.

So there's really no one is guilty here, some are just bad when playing the geopolitical chess, that's it

Come on, man! Seems like Asian opponents have their own undrstanding about morality and ethics. It is like the world has not learned a thing from WWII. Among other things, there has been an Nurenberg trials after the end of WWII with purposeto separate good from bad, but there have been attempts even before that. Please, let me to give to my honoured opponent the lesson about the concept of crime in broader sense.

There exists basic concepts like Crimes Against Humanity., but also genocide and war crimes. UN has webpage dedicated to such aspects, condemning crimes made by Europeans during colonisation etc. Please have a look: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/crimes-against-humanity.shtml

Selected pieces from this document:
"It is not clear in which context the term “crimes against humanity” was first developed. Some scholars[1] point to the use of this term (or very similar terms) as early as late eighteenth and early nineteenth century, particularly in the context of slavery and the slave trade, and to describe atrocities associated with European colonialism in Africa and elsewhere such as, for example, the atrocities committed by Leopold II of Belgium in the Congo Free State. Other scholars[2] point to the declaration issued in 1915 by the Allied governments (France, Great Britain and Russia) condemning the mass killing of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, to be the origin of the use of the term as the label for a category of international crimes."

"Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
Article 7
Crimes Against Humanity


  1. For the purpose of this Statute, ‘crime against humanity’ means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:
    1. Murder;
    2. Extermination;
    3. Enslavement;
    4. Deportation or forcible transfer of population;
    5. Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;
    6. Torture;
    7. Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
    8. Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;
    9. Enforced disappearance of persons;
    10. The crime of apartheid;
    11. Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.
  2. For the purpose of paragraph 1:
    1. ‘Attack directed against any civilian population’ means a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in paragraph 1 against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack;"

who is Doolitle?

A) An American hero who boomed Tokyo
B) A war criminal who is directly resposible for the deads of countless German and Japanies civilians during strategic bombing campaigns of German and Japanies cities?

to talk about ''universialy accepted etrhical rules governing international relations. it should be free from the bias of the outcome of a confilict or your side at this conflict.

History is full of cases where the line between hero and criminal is blured and unrecognizable

or lets say liberal democracy - capitalism - nation state is the end of human political evolution from which we should base the framwork of an universialy accepted etrhical rules governing international relations? or liberal democracy - capitalism- nation state are hegomonic discourses which determines power relations between countries?


believing in what you say is true is one thing but believing what you say is the reality is something totaly diffrent

in brief ''universialy accepted etrhical rules governing international relations'' is a fairy tale. İnternational relations is based on national interest even though it is an extremly vague and complex concept
 
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MaciekRS

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If you bring up Japan.
Japanese soldiers were REAL war criminals, they did some of the most terrible things during WW2 which Koran and Chinese ppl still didnt forget.
But it was 80 years ago, I really hope they change during that time.
BUT on Ukraine we have russian soldiers that we now KNOW for fact that they DIDNT change since WW2, they are the same barbarians that my grandparents told me they were 80 years ago.
 

blackjack

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As for the Kinzhal doing 20+G, because its a solid fueled rocket that burned out too quickly, once you maneuver doing high G moves, you lost energy pretty quickly and speed too, probabaly reducing it to supersonic or even subsonic speed. The U.S try to fix this problem with the HAWC air breathing hypersonic missile giving more sustained thrust during flight and 3 already tested in '21,'22 and '23 but not yet operationally fielded. Again another question need to be raised on how Russia field such thing so fast and without hiccups.

There's alsoa question if the missile body could bear the extremely high G load. 30+G in a mach 5 plus flying object is a lot, especially if they're doing it multiple times in the air.

The only reason why Kinzhal is yet to be intercepted is the simple fact that no high altitude interceptor that is yet to be fielded to counter these. IRIS-T, AIM-120 and RBS-70 aren't designed for very high speed, very high altitude target.

Things would get pretty interesting once PAC-3 enters the battlefield.
The range of the kinzhal already takes account for all the evasive maneuvers same as the other missiles they have already fielded. This missile maneuvers constantly at 20-30Gs because of a controlled surface and TVC capabilities, energy is not lost if fuel keeps burning. The Kinzhal is already fielded what the U.S. screws up on is not my problem.

I mean this isnt the only time the U.S. is behind certian fields like fielding scramjets and HGVs in which I already gave a few examples ranging from the HTV-2 project or why some of their interceptors dont have 55-60 G loads.

It wouldn't even matter if PACS-3 is fielded with the top of the line electronics a fat pigeon chasing a faster pigeon that constantly changes directions will give the fat pigeon a hard time, which is why Russia's latest interceptors that pull twice the amount of G-loads are like humming birds that can chase fast pigeons and changing directions won't help it against a hummingbird.

The missiles will be sort of like the S-400 in their limited G-loads being almost practically the same but the PACS-3 missiles are slower.

How many of those were shot by Pantsy?
UCAVs cheap as peanuts compared to "very advanced systems" which cost an arm and a leg. Most importantly, some were fried with their crew inside and active radar :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

PS: How many of these wonder systems were exported after the 44-day war?
I am looking at like 20 or 30 drones(random TB2s being shot down has still been ongoing) and even though 4 different pantsirs have been hit some have been repaired to be back on the service side. Russians have sold them for export like for 12 million dollars to the UAE and turks sell the drones for like 10 million dollars and Ukraine purchased 6 for 69 million dollars :eek::eek::eek::eek: https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/5929471.html?ysclid=lf5qs9ypkd766632956 I am just comparing export losses.
BUT on Ukraine we have russian soldiers that we now KNOW for fact that they DIDNT change since WW2, they are the same barbarians that my grandparents told me they were 80 years ago.
Your ancestors might be rolling in their graves seeing how highly your supportive of Azov nazis that followed the same ideology of the UPA that have tortured 1000s of poles to death that even the poles have stated they respected the actual nazis in Germany more because they offered them fast deaths.
 
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Fuzuli NL

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The range of the kinzhal already takes account for all the evasive maneuvers same as the other missiles they have already fielded. This missile maneuvers constantly at 20-30Gs because of a controlled surface and TVC capabilities, energy is not lost if fuel keeps burning. The Kinzhal is already fielded what the U.S. screws up on is not my problem.

I mean this isnt the only time the U.S. is behind certian fields like fielding scramjets and HGVs in which I already gave a few examples ranging from the HTV-2 project or why some of their interceptors dont have 55-60 G loads.

It wouldn't even matter if PACS-3 is fielded with the top of the line electronics a fat pigeon chasing a faster pigeon that constantly changes directions will give the fat pigeon a hard time, which is why Russia's latest interceptors that pull twice the amount of G-loads are like humming birds that can chase fast pigeons and changing directions won't help it against a hummingbird.

The missiles will be sort of like the S-400 in their limited G-loads being almost practically the same but the PACS-3 missiles are slower.


I am looking at like 20 or 30 drones(random TB2s being shot down has still been ongoing) and even though 4 different pantsirs have been hit some have been repaired to be back on the service side. Russians have sold them for export like for 12 million dollars to the UAE and turks sell the drones for like 10 million dollars and Ukraine purchased 6 for 69 million dollars :eek::eek::eek::eek: https://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/5929471.html?ysclid=lf5qs9ypkd766632956 I am just comparing export losses.

Your ancestors might be rolling in their graves seeing how highly your supportive of Azov nazis that followed the same ideology of the UPA that have tortured 1000s of poles to death that even the poles have stated they respected the actual nazis in Germany more because they offered them fast deaths.
Only in Libya, 9 Pantsies were FUBAR, not mentioning the extreme humiliation of all kinds of Russian equipment during the Karabagh War. Our little Bayraktars have been causing you nightmares since then.

I could share multiple sources showing your extreme backside pain about those drones but I won't bother with someone who's living in denial.

Wake up and smell the coffee rather than living in your fantasy denial world.

Russia is exposed. It's not a superpower. Not even close. If they didn't have nukes, they would've been mauled down in the first two months.
 

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