Indonesia Casual Discussion Warkop Indonesia

[RadenSudirman]

Top russian military engineers:

 

[morningstar]

do the job of Satpol PP

This one understandable actually, Satpol PP did that before but the baliho still up again, so they needed support of TNI after that to gave more frightening effect. But I’m sure that was not his own initiative, he was just ordered by those above him to did that and also show of force by Ransus with Koopsus written on the side was not on his control, even though that below his control those above him must also gave the permission for that Koopsus to be BKO’d to Kodam Jaya.

This very act was borderline of something dangerous tho, that was (almost) like suppression of freedom of speech. It is okay to do something like that or capturing people or etc, but if they or the groups are already disturbing national security and have no commitment to democracy. Democracy grant the right for every people to say whatever they want and assemble or gather, make political party and reach the throne even as long they are not ganggu national security. If those who are in power babat yang di bawah yang gak disuka, even though it is still democracy, then it become illiberal democracy.

 

[morningstar]

Don’t put too much trust to one figure, I can’t even guarantee that I’m not gonna be semena-mena or corrupt if I’m the one on top. This is where ‘checks and balances’ of democracy by opposition needed to checks and balance those who are on top, so they not too strong.

I always love to say this quote; power tend to corrupt, absolute power corrupt absolutely.

 

[RadenSudirman]

This one understandable actually, Satpol PP did that before but the baliho still up again, so they needed support of TNI after that to gave more frightening effect. But I’m sure that was not his own initiative, he was just ordered by those above him to did that and also show of force by Ransus with Koopsus written on the side was not on his control, even though that below his control those above him must also gave the permission for that Koopsus to be BKO’d to Kodam Jaya.

As long as TNI is still political and politicized, there is not much hope for professionalism.

I think Akmil and Akpol are the roots of the problem, retarded institutions with toxic culture, who train officers not to be warfighter, but to be political cadre a la ormas. It is a machine designed to produce a ruling class who is loyal to their own group self-interest, who dominated government offices and enterprises, and is rewarded for loyalty to certain interest and not for their battle ability.

My theory is that the US teach them to be like this, weak officer with weak mind who are oriented towards money-making, are easier to control and more beneficial to them, than a genius warfighter who might pose a military threat.

"KASAD" is not even an prime of such political cadre, but the ampas of it, same with trash like that insane commiephobia former Panglima. It is not about whether Kasad Baliho was ordered or not s not important, the fact that someone like him exists, is a shameful thing in itself.

Don’t put too much trust to one figure, I can’t even guarantee that I’m not gonna be semena-mena or corrupt if I’m the one on top. This is where ‘checks and balances’ of democracy by opposition needed to checks and balance those who are on top, so they not too strong.

I always love to say this quote; power tend to corrupt, absolute power corrupt absolutely.

Then at least put someone smart and talented in power, not some low-IQ half-civilized piece of garbage in high office.

 

[morningstar]

I think Akmil and Akpol are the roots of the problem, retarded institutions with toxic culture, who train officers not to be warfighter, but to be political cadre a la ormas. It is a machine designed to produce a ruling class who is loyal to their own group self-interest, who dominated government offices and enterprises, and is rewarded for loyalty to certain interest and not for their battle ability.

My theory is that the US teach them to be like this, weak officer with weak mind who are oriented towards money-making, are easier to control and more beneficial to them, than a genius warfighter who might pose a military threat.

Study about politics needed, especially during the height of Cold War in Indonesia of early to mid 60s. Berkeley Mafia that some said backed by US strongly even lectured Seskoad (not AKMIL or AKPOL but still) during Ahmad Yani time. But that during the context of Cold War when US care nothing about democracy in the third world, they just need it to not below Soviet and/or PRC sphere of influence, even though Biblical Pharaoh was the leader.

Study about politics needed still I think, but harus ada penekanan kalo Indonesia negara demokrasi and they can’t just do whatever each of them want.

"KASAD" is not even an prime of such political cadre, but the ampas of it, same with trash like that insane commiephobia former Panglima. It is not about whether Kasad Baliho was ordered or not s not important, the fact that someone like him exists, is a shameful thing in itself.

Wkwk

 

[morningstar]

As long as TNI is still political and politicized, there is not much hope for professionalism.

This is the job of Komisi 1 to checks and make sure the usage of military by the power accountable. As long Komisi 1 just a rubber stamp, forget about accountability.

Kalo tentara adanya cuma siap dan siap. Kalo tentara ada demokrasi gak ada yang mau maju tempur nanti, kayak yang dibilang sama mertuanya AP that I actually don’t like him, but I take his words above. Tentara itu cuman alat.

 

[morningstar]

Komisi 1

I don’t know why there’s almost like no meaningful opposition or even no opposition here, even the PKS that usually clearly defined as opposition.

 

[RadenSudirman]

This is the job of Komisi 1 to checks and make sure the usage of military by the power accountable. As long Komisi 1 just a rubber stamp, forget about accountability.

One time a member of Komisi 1 criticize the conduct of military officers, General Baliho, who feel tersindir, commanded his minions to intimidate that Komisi 1 member, no different than the manner of street ormas.

Now you know why there is Komisi Kepolisian Nasional, but there is no Komisi Militer Nasional. On top of that Komisi 1 is too scared to cross line with TNI and just follow Orba-era convention of military political privilege. Wow, as if everything is purposely designed to avoid accountability and make military members above the law?

Let's just agree that we need a heckload of reforms to fix all this mess, mostly structurally.

France (historical), Japan, Germany, and United States, doesn't have "Panglima". Head of State and/or Government is the Panglima. Military administration is exercised through Ministry of Defense, and from them to Military Commanders in the field. US has no "Panglima TNI Amerika", all services are headed by Chief of Staff, with Joint Chief of Staff as the leader. President is the one giving the order to do war.

This way civilian can exercise effective control over the military, President is civilian, Minister of Defense and the employees are also mostly civilians, while Chief of Staffs are merely administrator, and top field commanders receive order from the President.

Versus in Indonesia, Ministry of Defense offices are filled with military personnel, while the civilians are just slaves, as they are employees of the military. Military and MOD are different things and move on their own, structure and chain of command are meaningless vs reality of conflicting interest. With this kind of situation, civilian control is nothing but a myth, everything is a meaningless facade.

Ideally you have this kind of chain of command:

President -> Menkopolhukam -> Minister of Defense -> TNI

If possible even the MOD had to be civilian and the employee civilian professionals detached from TNI

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602542594176651264

What if he actually into that thing?

 

[morningstar]

On top of that Komisi 1 is too scared to cross line with TNI and just follow Orba-era convention of military political privilege. Wow, as if everything is purposely designed to avoid accountability and make military members above the law?

“Who are you asking for more transparency and accountability of what we are doing?”

If possible even the MOD had to be civilian and the employee civilian professionals detached from TNI

In US, there is a law about someone that become Secdef have to end their military service 7 years before they become Secdef. Probably to make them fully civilian, so there’s difference between department (ministry) and military. But also with exception, Congress can waive it. Lloyd Austin was retired less then 7 years before he became Secdef if i remember correctly, but the Congress (bipartisan) waive that.

Versus in Indonesia, Ministry of Defense offices are filled with military personnel, while the civilians are just slaves, as they are employees of the military. Military and MOD are different things and move on their own, structure and chain of command are meaningless vs reality of conflicting interest. With this kind of situation, civilian control is nothing but a myth, everything is a meaningless facade.

Still better than Menpangab position before. Menteri iya, Panglima iya, negara tentara emang dulu lol. “Supermasi sipil itu makanan apa? Supermasi tentara ini”, said some people during Orba maybe.

Orla also same like that tho, especially when Soekarno put himself so powerful unilaterally with Presidential Decree. DPR dibubarin, buat DPR-GR isinya siapa yang dia mau lol, gak ada checks and balances lah Pak Proklamator.

 

[morningstar]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602542594176651264

What if he actually into that thing?

Ulang tahun ya? Lol. Di bully sama dibercandain emang beda tipis. Dulu gak sampe gitu sih aku, paling diceburin lol. Pernah nyeburin, pernah diceburin

 

[Umigami]

Ulang tahun ya? Lol. Di bully sama dibercandain emang beda tipis. Dulu gak sampe gitu sih aku, paling diceburin lol. Pernah nyeburin, pernah diceburin

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602243594521231360

 

[morningstar]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602243594521231360

Didorong ke tembok dong, jontor itu bibir paling. Pelecehan seksualnya berarti bagian nurunin celana itu, ada kemungkinan juga itu dipegang-pegang. Kalo ngasih minum pipis gitu pelecehan gak? Gak nyangka kayak gitu bisa se fatal itu sumpah, apalagi bisa sampe polisi

De Oppresso Liber gampang dibilang, susah dikerjakan. Aku disitu paling juga cuman grinning di belakang dengan kebodohanku

 

[RadenSudirman]

In US, there is a law about someone that become Secdef have to end their military service 7 years before they become Secdef. Probably to make them fully civilian, so there’s difference between department (ministry) and military. But also with exception, Congress can waive it. Lloyd Austin was retired less then 7 years before he became Secdef if i remember correctly, but the Congress (bipartisan) waive that.

We can copy that, but that would mean Andika would prevented from becoming MOD

Still better than Menpangab position before. Menteri iya, Panglima iya, negara tentara emang dulu lol. “Supermasi sipil itu makanan apa? Supermasi tentara ini”, said some people during Orba maybe.

Maybe make "Chief of Armed Forces General Staff", AKA Kepala Staf Umum TNI to be the highest position within TNI with expanded responsibility and better governance within the institution. Currently there is KASUM (3 star) but he is no more than secretary to Panglima, and even overshadowed by Kepala Staf of AD, AL and AU (who are de facto still act like their own 4 star Panglima)

Sorting this mess is very important, we know that the less civilian control on military, ironically, the military will be weaker. Because they will spend more of their brain and belly fat thinking about politics and business, rather than how to win war. We don't need any more Suharto with politics and economy cringe, we need Clausewitz, Moltke, Manstein, Guderian, Yamamoto, Marshall, these kind of dudes.

 

[RadenSudirman]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602243594521231360

Gundar has been notorious for its culture of bullying and harrassment. Maybe because they mostly take in failed students? garbage in garbage out.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602542594176651264

What if he actually into that thing?

Like that one singer who peed to a fans' face. It is consensual yes, but is it a shamefur dispray? also yes.

Honestly after spending time in university, I think assuming college students to be "all intellectual", is very misleading lmao.

 

[morningstar]

Currently there is KASUM (3 star) but he is no more than secretary to Panglima, and even overshadowed by Kepala Staf of AD, AL and AU (who are de facto still act like their own 4 star Panglima)

If want to make it fully like US, then every branches has civilian above them, Secretary of Air Force above USAF and Space Force etc. 60s also like this btw, but still the secretary (menteri) were the chief of that branch, so you can read Menpangau, Menpangal, Menpangad, Menpangak if you read history.

I’m not too much into this specific part honestly, but what I like is the AFOSI of the Department of Air Force. Some cases like corruption of USAF personnel for example is not diselesaikan inside the USAF that you know lah, more possibility of saving another, but by the Department of Air Force, jadi yang bersih-bersih di dalem dari sipil, walau ada anggota AFOSI dari USAF juga sih

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1602516483346767872

 

[morningstar]

I’m not too much into this specific part honestly, but what I like is the AFOSI of the Department of Air Force. Some cases like corruption of USAF personnel for example is not diselesaikan inside the USAF that you know lah, more possibility of saving another, but by the Department of Air Force, jadi yang bersih-bersih di dalem dari sipil, walau ada anggota AFOSI dari USAF juga sih

Tapi jangan dipikir anggaran gak ada yang ilang juga. Ada juga anggaran yang Congress pun gak tau itu ilang kemana, Secretary of Air Force ditanya pasti juga gak jawab jelas. Jadi gak se transparan atau akuntabel itu juga. Yang ilang itu biasanya di Congress dikenal “non-blue budget” apa “pass-through”. Kalo mau prasangka baik, itu anggaran dipake untuk hal-hal rahasia, tapi kalo mau skeptis yang mana harus ada juga, itu anggaran bisa dipake untuk apa aja, bahkan untuk nambah kekayaan pribadi.

Anggep itu budget ilang emang untuk hal-hal rahasia, USAF kan kadang kerja sama CIA, nah, black budget itu tadi dipake untuk kepentingannya CIA. Contoh U-2 yang pake anggaran AU untuk RnD, pengadaan dll padahal yang minta CIA. Bahkan kalo gak salah sampe pengadaan mesin B-52 dulu pernah budgetnya dilebihin dari kebutuhan AU, kembalian atau sisanya itu untuk budget U-2 lol. Terus lagi Project Aurora. Ini anggaran ada tulisan Project Aurora, tapi wujud pesawatnya gak ada anj, kayak minta duit untuk beli sesuatu tapi pas ditanya mana yang dibeli gak ada, lah terus uangnya ilang kemana? Ada yang bilang Project Aurora itu untuk anggaran buat B-2, tapi gak jelas juga tetep.

Edit: yang tulisan Aurora itu bukan ke Congress kayaknya ragu juga aku. Untuk yang mesin itu J57 (sori salah tadi J52). Jadi pengadaan untuk mesin B-52 dll AU itu doang resminya, aslinya dilebihin (atau diambil, terserah lah) untuk CL-282 lol, jadi project itu pake barang yang gak seharusnya ada disitu.

 

[Umigami]

Terus lagi Project Aurora. Ini anggaran ada tulisan Project Aurora, tapi wujud pesawatnya gak ada anj, kayak minta duit untuk beli sesuatu tapi pas ditanya mana yang dibeli gak ada, lah terus uangnya ilang kemana?

Ini US yg mana masih ada kemungkinan bocornya ke operasi Intel demi national security atau pengembangan teknologi baru, lah kalau disini bocornya kemana lagi?

 

[RadenSudirman]

Ada juga anggaran yang Congress pun gak tau itu ilang kemana, Secretary of Air Force ditanya pasti juga gak jawab jelas. Jadi gak se transparan atau akuntabel itu juga.

Anggep itu budget ilang emang untuk hal-hal rahasia

Mungkin mereka seharusnya menyerahkan seluruh kewenangan pada Kemenkeu Amerika, maka semua anggaran akan didikte satu lembaga saja.