Indonesia Indonesian Air Force, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Udara (TNI-AU)

[Umigami]

budget bro.....

but anyway since we're talking hypothetical , don't you think an F-16(V) is best paired with the Eagle II ?? consider that both uses the same engine ??

unless it's an F-35, an F-16V is just as advanced if not more advanced than some of the Europeans offer

That is why I'm hoping for Typhoon tranche 4, seems like Harapan tinggal harapan...

 

[FoodSoldier]

You guys do realize that the $20,7 foreign credit cap set by SMI has pretty much stopped any Rafale deal from seriously happening before 2024 right? French equipment is notoriously expensive, French contractors tend to underbid their competitors just to secure the deal and only then balloon up the costs because of extra stuff that they like to put in AFTER they win the contract (look at India's Rafale deal, the Canadian CSC program, and more recently the Australian Sub Deal for example).

This goes for the F-15EX as well, there's no way they can afford a squadron's worth of airframes. If Prabowo keeps pushing for either of the two, the Air Force has to cancel all other projects like the MRSAM, GCI, AWACS, MRTT as well as mothball some of the Flankers since it will literally take up the entire portion of that cap that's set aside for the Air Force. And this is just for PROCURING them, don't get me started on keeping them airworthy.

The only fighters the Air Force can really buy in large numbers without putting a dent in their budget is literally either the F-16V or the F/A-50. I'm sure that SMI knows this, hence why the Rafale isn't on the blue book yet. Don't be blinded by nationalistic zeal and over optimism guys, follow the money trail because numbers don't lie.

The disagreement between MoF and MoD is on Rupiah Murni Pendamping for every foreign loan. France (and other lenders) offered DP 0% for Indonesia (MoD), however MoF insisted that RMP should be at least 15% (for DP) as risk management mechanism.

In my opinion, oknums at MoF just dont want to lose their lucrative ‘business’ of channeling loan from certain financial institutions (who enjoy high profit from Indonesian bonds market) where they can get kickback from ‘higher’ interest rates.

Those lenders that being brought by MoD has change the entire game by offering very low interest rates and zero DP (which is actually good for our side). MoF oknums don’t like this new game as they can’t get cuan out of it.

 

[Nilgiri]

You guys do realize that the $20,7 foreign credit cap set by SMI has pretty much stopped any Rafale deal from seriously happening before 2024 right? French equipment is notoriously expensive, French contractors tend to underbid their competitors just to secure the deal and only then balloon up the costs because of extra stuff that they like to put in AFTER they win the contract (look at India's Rafale deal, the Canadian CSC program, and more recently the Australian Sub Deal for example).

This goes for the F-15EX as well, there's no way they can afford a squadron's worth of airframes. If Prabowo keeps pushing for either of the two, the Air Force has to cancel all other projects like the MRSAM, GCI, AWACS, MRTT as well as mothball some of the Flankers since it will literally take up the entire portion of that cap that's set aside for the Air Force. And this is just for PROCURING them, don't get me started on keeping them airworthy.

The only fighters the Air Force can really buy in large numbers without putting a dent in their budget is literally either the F-16V or the F/A-50. I'm sure that SMI knows this, hence why the Rafale isn't on the blue book yet. Don't be blinded by nationalistic zeal and over optimism guys, follow the money trail because numbers don't lie.

Finally, a post I was long waiting for in a number of ways hehe.

Stick around buddy, we need your stark cold insight more here.

 

[FPXAllen]

The disagreement between MoF and MoD is on Rupiah Murni Pendamping for every foreign loan. France (and other lenders) offered DP 0% for Indonesia (MoD), however MoF insisted that RMP should be at least 15% (for DP) as risk management mechanism.

In my opinion, oknums at MoF just dont want to lose their lucrative ‘business’ of channeling loan from certain financial institutions (who enjoy high profit from Indonesian bonds market) where they can get kickback from ‘higher’ interest rates.

Those lenders that being brought by MoD has change the entire game by offering very low interest rates and zero DP (which is actually good for our side). MoF oknums don’t like this new game as they can’t get cuan out of it.

If this is true, those 'oknums' in MoF and all other state institutions deserve to be shot, hanged, shot, and hanged again.

For God's sake, they're not 'small fishes' or low ranked state employees whose monthly take home pays are only less than 5 million IDR. I don't know all the details, but at the very least they make more than 20 million a month with all the "tunjangan" and whatnots, and yet, they still think that they deserve a cut from things like this.

 

[Indos]

The disagreement between MoF and MoD is on Rupiah Murni Pendamping for every foreign loan. France (and other lenders) offered DP 0% for Indonesia (MoD), however MoF insisted that RMP should be at least 15% (for DP) as risk management mechanism.

In my opinion, oknums at MoF just dont want to lose their lucrative ‘business’ of channeling loan from certain financial institutions (who enjoy high profit from Indonesian bonds market) where they can get kickback from ‘higher’ interest rates.

Those lenders that being brought by MoD has change the entire game by offering very low interest rates and zero DP (which is actually good for our side). MoF oknums don’t like this new game as they can’t get cuan out of it.

Rafale and F 15 EX havent been approved by Minister of Planning, how come Minister of Finance has contribution on that ?

First being approved by Minister of planning (Blue book) then it will be screened further by MoF and put on Green Book. Later acquisition budget approved by MoF will be the last screening.

What comes from Blue Book will also not necessary be approved entirely by MoF, just like MRCA acqusition being approved by Minister of Planning is 1.6 billion USD, then it get slashed into 1.1 billion USD.

For 2022 acquisition budget, it is not enough to finance all 5.8 billion USD approved foreign loan (by MoF), as it needs around 12 trillion IDR in the form of RMP, while the budget for foreign equipment is only 9 trillion IDR while 3 trillion IDR is for local defense industry acquisition. So some foreign defense equipment acquisition will be delayed into 2023

__________________

Talking about your accusation on MoF office

Nope, I believe MoF office is much cleaner than MoD office. If you put 15 % DP then the interest rate will be smaller than if you dont put any DP at all, that is the reason why RMP should exist, in order to pay less on the interest

 

[Lordimperator]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442784030911438850

3 bil for 24 ? Cheaper than 36 indian rafale for comparison

For God's sake, they're not 'small fishes' or low ranked state employees whose monthly take home pays are only less than 5 million IDR

Greed knows no bound

 

[FPXAllen]

Greed knows no bound

Oh yes, indeed. That's why I also think that execution by firing squad or hanging are still too merciful for them.

They should be skinned alive or perhaps "death by 1000 cuts" will be enough to satisfy much public anger and frustration against those bastards.

 

[Parry Brima]

For 2022 acquisition budget, it is not enough to finance all 5.8 billion USD approved foreign loan (by MoF), as it needs around 12 trillion IDR in the form of RMP, while the budget for foreign equipment is only 9 trillion IDR while 3 trillion IDR is for local defense industry acquisition. So some foreign defense equipment acquisition will be delayed into 2023

This doesn't make sense. RMP is 15% of the approved foreign loan. So Rp 12 trillions equals to $5.8 bil. It means all will be for foreign procurement. Why do you need foreign loan for local procurement?

 

[Indos]

This doesn't make sense. RMP is 15% of the approved foreign loan. So Rp 12 trillions equals to $5.8 bil. It means all will be for foreign procurement. Why do you need foreign loan for local procurement?

See the news in Indonesia strategic industry thread where Satria put the news on 2022 Defense budget in term of acquisition, maintenance, and infrastructure budget.

Total acquisition budget is around 12 trillion IDR but 3 trillion IDR should be for local defense industry. As we know our local defense industry hasnt yet making jet fighter, submarine, and so on, so the amount of money I believe in majority is in the form of full payment (advance/delivery) while some will be DP (RMP) since some will be financed by domestic loan as we can see on Rapim, there are domestic loan as well.

 

[Parry Brima]

3 bil for 24 ? Cheaper than 36 indian rafale for comparison

Indian's Rafale deal contains 50% offset. So from the total of $9.4 bil, the price for 36 combat ready Rafale (complete with weaponry) is actually $4.7 bil which means $130.5 mil per jet.

Pretty sure the $3.3 bil for 24 F-15EX doesn't include any weaponry.

 

[Parry Brima]

See the news in Indonesia strategic industry thread where Satria put the news on 2022 Defense budget in term of acquisition, maintenance, and infrastructure budget.

Total acquisition budget is around 12 trillion IDR but 3 trillion IDR should be for local defense industry. As we know our local defense industry hasnt yet making jet fighter, submarine, and so on, so the amount of money I believe in majority is in the form of full payment (advance/delivery) while some will be DP (RMP) as well since some will be financed by domestic loan as we can see on Rapim, there are domestic loan as well.

Yes, I read that one in this sub-forum, the procurement budget is Rp 12 trillion. But that's not the main point. The foreign loan that's approved by MoF is $5.8 bil (Rp 83 trillion). So the RMP is 15% x Rp 83 trillion = Rp 12 trillion.

It means all of those Rp 12 trillion is the RMP for foreign loan. If you said that the RMP for foreign loan is Rp 9 trillions, it means the approved foreign loan is not $5.8 bil but more like $4.3 bil.

 

[Indos]

Yes, I read that one in this sub-forum, the procurement budget is Rp 12 trillion. But that's not the main point. The foreign loan that's approved by MoF is $5.8 bil (Rp 83 trillion). So the RMP is 15% x Rp 83 trillion = Rp 12 trillion.

It means all of those Rp 12 trillion is the RMP for foreign loan. If you said that the RMP for foreign loan is Rp 9 trillions, it means the approved foreign loan is not $5.8 bil but more like $4.3 bil.

Read again carefully, out of 12 trillion budget, 3 trillion must be allocated to buy local defense industry products.

Approved foreign loan of 5.8 billion USD by MoF is the approved foreign loan backed program by MoF, the program will not be necessary started in 2022 with the DP being allocated at that year. So yes only 4.3 billion USD foreign loan backed acquisition program is approved in 2022, while the remaining will be delayed into 2023

As Keppres (Presiden Regulation) also has been made which stated 50 % allocation budget minimal must go to local defense industry, this I interpret as equipment acquisition+maintenance budget. This make 2022 budget for maintenance is quite big as well, around 8 trillion IDR, in which I believe majority will be absorbed by local defense industry to create that 50 : 50 balance ordered by President

 

[Parry Brima]

Read again carefully, out of 12 trillion budget, 3 trillion must be allocated to buy local defense industry.

Let's copy the screenshot again here.

The 12 trillion and the 3 trillion allocations are in separate procurement post, no?

 

[Indos]

Let's copy the screenshot again here.

View attachment 32372
View attachment 32373

The 12 trillion and the 3 trillion allocations are in separate procurement post, no?

3 trillion is part of 12 trillion IDR. That "bagan" for local defense industry improvement is just to make the information clearer, which items will be bought from local defense industry which is 5 items out of total 23 items

 

[Parry Brima]

3 trillion is part of 12 trillion IDR. That "bagan" for local defense industry improvement is just to make the information clearer, which items will be bought from local defense industry which is 5 items out of total 23 items

If that's the case then I stand corrected. Thanks.

Btw, this is kinda good news. So the RMP for 2022 foreign procurement is Rp 9.5 trillion. It means we have $4.43 bil to spend in 2022 alone.

The MoF and MoP will give their approval annually. So the numbers could be changing depends on the situation and needs.

 

[Indos]

If that's the case then I stand corrected. Thanks.

Btw, this is kinda good news. So the RMP for 2022 foreign procurement is Rp 9.5 trillion. It means we have $4.43 bil to spend in 2022 alone.

The MoF and MoP will give their approval annually. So the numbers could be changing depends on the situation and needs.

It could also means some or all of 1.4 billion USD foreign loan back acquisition program will be started in 2021. I dont have any information on the acquisition budget for 2021, but at least 5 Super Hercules contract has been effective and there is 6 T 50 Golden Eagle as well, and possibly 2 Babcock Iver contract will be effective this year

 

[Parry Brima]

It could also means some or all of 1.4 billion USD foreign loan back acquisition program will be started in 2021. I dont have any information on the acquisition budget for 2021, but at least 5 Super Hercules contract has been effective and there is 6 T 50 Golden Eagle as well, and possibly 2 Babcock Iver contract will be effective this year

That's even better.

Btw, how about the $1.1 bil that's originally slotted for SU-35? Is it included in 2021 as well?

 

[Indos]

That's even better.

Btw, how about the $1.1 bil that's originally slotted for SU-35? Is it included in 2021 as well?

I dont think so, I hope it is a loan from SK to pay KF21/IFX program financial obligation. It should be part 2022 budget

 

[Chestnut]

That is why I'm hoping for Typhoon tranche 4, seems like Harapan tinggal harapan...

Why get a Tranche 4 Typhoon when you can get double the amount for the same price if you go for the F16V? The Tranche 4 is pretty much on par with the Block 70/72

The disagreement between MoF and MoD is on Rupiah Murni Pendamping for every foreign loan. France (and other lenders) offered DP 0% for Indonesia (MoD), however MoF insisted that RMP should be at least 15% (for DP) as risk management mechanism.

This is what France does, they CLAIM it's 0% DP so as to underbid their competitors, but after winning the contract they start making up extra costs along the way to increase profits. Here's an article detailing an example of the French at play.

The hidden cost of the Attack-class submarine cancellation | The Strategist

The abrupt announcement last week by the Australian government that it was scrapping its plans to build a fleet of diesel-electric submarines in favour of nuclear-powered boats will have a ripple effect throughout the defence ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

France has a national champions industrial policy - it definitely prioritizes their firms and extracting as much $ for the country as possible. So this approach does ensure they get as much domestic work as possible. It's highly likely the reason the F-16 was chosen over the Mirage 2000 in the 80's is because the Soeharto Administration's finance ministry did a full audit and cost evaluation of the French bid, much like what the Australians had just done.

Indian's Rafale deal contains 50% offset. So from the total of $9.4 bil, the price for 36 combat ready Rafale (complete with weaponry) is actually $4.7 bil which means $130.5 mil per jet.

Pretty sure the $3.3 bil for 24 F-15EX doesn't include any weaponry.

US fighter purchases ALWAYS includes weaponry. The US sells them as packages, very rarely do they sell them as just the airframes.

 

[Nilgiri]

Why get a Tranche 4 Typhoon when you can get double the amount of them if you go for the F16V? The Tranche 4 is pretty much on par with the Block 70/72

We've been harping on the F-16V a while havent we heh.

It makes the most sense in so many different ways....good acquisition project should have started a cpl years ago already.

I never got this whole Rafale and F-15-EX thing at all.

Get the F-16V, progress to a 5th gen after that.

Simple, efficient....and w.r.t time and cost savings... direct that to the navy to build economy of scale there.

Indonesia needs a far larger navy by 2030.