India Indian Coffee House

[Joe Shearer]

Turks have some similar contours going on in their politics over say the last 20 or so years...so this often spurs lot of their interest in observing and commenting w.r.t India as well (if they are so inclined/interested on the matter at large).

i.e First half "Ascendant right wing" bourne out from a large voting bloc earlier resentment + grievance build (regarding their majoritarian identity on religion and other markers)

......this politics being perceived to be quite abrasive in many minds to the founding principles (of Ataturk) and the concurrent institutional erosion.

Now the closing half (many of them say) and the look to remoulding and moving to a newer era (past 2000 - 2020)

They are a couple political cycles downstream of us you can say in the broadest simple way.

The scales, nuances and details of course greatly vary as expected.

But most (secular + republic foundation oriented) Turkish friends speak in almost word for word the same way (about their party and leader in power currently and the politics involved on the ground and higher echelons as well) that I have noticed many of their equivalents do in India. It is very uncanny...but in a way lends to that universal theme I speak of regarding these issues as they rest in the human psyche.

In fact on many occasions I have described current Indian politics and societal churn using their own local reference points for it....quite easily and succinctly.

Some like @merzifonlu obviously have been close astute observers of our region as well:

Pakistan's Taliban emboldened by power shift in Afghanistan

Pakistan's Taliban emboldened by power shift in Afghanistan PESHAWAR ASIA PACIFIC OCT 18, 2021 9:18 AM GMT+3 Pakistan Army troops observe the area from hilltop post on the Pakistan Afghanistan border, in Khyber district, Pakistan, Aug. 3, 2021. (AP Photo) In Pakistan’s rugged tribal regions...

defencehub.live

It is why I tagged those that came to my mind immediately as those I have talked with at some length on these matters (TR-politics, IN-politics and their many mutual conceptual similarities).

It does seem uncanny, and the hope that Turks are truly a cycle or two downstream from us is vastly encouraging. Meanwhile, their quite evident grasp, not only of the broad issues, but of subtle aspects within those, is very soothing.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Im far from being knowledgeable in Indian politics but the few things i saw about RSS and Modi tell these guys are far from moderate, what they propagate to youth can take a dangerous turn very quickly.

Mixing religion with politics is never a good idea, Turks made their experience with it and the country is at crossroads now, one which is not pleasant tbh.

I completely, unreservedly agree. Perhaps I will reply in detail in a day. It does not seem that many, even any, others will want to weigh in.

Please bear with me.

 

[Nilgiri]

The new gen is even more brainwashed with social media and stuff. Friends I have studied with, has started openly blaming Brahmins in WhatsApp groups not even withstanding Brahmins are there in school groups, and he is used to be best friends with a few of them.

The irony is, this generation, of those who grew up in cities (excluding those who grew up in rural areas) who have never faced discrimination based on caste is resorting to hatred, which is something I can't understand.

My dad is an DMK supporter (not DK and ardent religious) has supposedly faced discrimination at the hands of Brahmins in 60's and 70's during his coll days. So his "hate" is understandable. My elder brother is an top notch student. His AI rank for GATE exam for iit admission was 96. We had a Brahmin family friend sit in our home and say if not for reservations, it would have tough to gain admissions in iit for anyone. My dad still latches on to the comments. My advice was not to view everyone in the same lens.

The problem I have with DMK is, people might disagree with me, was the first party in India to resort to hate politics aka Nazi style and unpopular opinion was the first party to use religion to divide people. Nazis blamed a vibrant and rich community as the reason for all problem Germany faced. Same in TN. The brainswashed zombies even bad-mouth UV Swaminatha iyrr and Bharathiyar just cos they are Brahmins. DMK was supposed to evolve over time. But DK hasn't. And DMK is powerless to do anything about it. Instead of bringing in all people together, this party projects hate against a religion through the Brahmin community.

The problem with this approach is, it will result in people to move towards Hindutva. Which is polarisation. The Congress party should have been the ideal counter. The popular perception is TN people do not have nationalistic ideals. But core voters of ADMK, BJP or INC are people with nationalistic appeal. But INC in TN has become a sidekick to DMK. All it cares about is winning few seats. Their vote share has gone below BJP in TN and NTK has already over grown those 2 parties. Until unless the ADMK takes charge, ground is fertile for BJP/NTK growth in TN.

Wish my community forefathers did lot better job with what they had inherited.....but they didn't....they absconded and worse and certain members did worse than the average on top lending to the stereotype extra hard....

.....all regarding some very important things in the end to the whole (in building a solid broad edifice as possible under the circumstances for the later generations of Tamils to take forward).

This has left the downstream wake as it is.....so I blame DK et al only so much (they responded eye for an eye style to what the grievance was that could be harnessed and extracted from). I see them as just reflective of humankinds politics in the end.

Some point enough people have to understand to judge on individuals as far as possible and give every broader community the maximum full benefit of doubt that can be afforded.

Then only can there be proper social cohesion for attention to focus on the best endeavours that ought to occupy us most (rather than occupied with eternal vindictive grudges). The sins of the father must die with him.

Indians actually as a whole are fairly OK at this compared to lot of other parts of world IMO.

Just the scales are very big and what has been extracted out of India (and the potential squandered) both physically and mentally for some centuries is also very big.

============================

This is why I also despise RSS and each and every org. that has latched into this void and exploited and corrupted many minds into vindictive mobs. This is fascism and it angers me to think about it that this hateful ideology has not only found a deep sanctuary in India...but has also persevered and made real political gains (in whichever way its laundered to become appetizing enough).

It is that set of thugs that have made things worse with the minorities both upstream and downstream now (some number of them have become the same thing that you described earlier).

Since @merzifonlu enquired, theres my answer.

===========================================================

Some point this whole thought process has to fizzle out, be pushed to the fringes and coldly end.... rather than be amplified in each new turn.

Then the void can be filled slowly with useful productive things that bring good returns to the common man and as many precious human souls as possible.

This all becomes extra ungainly when the majority consolidates behind it (this is what many foreigners have as their only take-away point without really understanding the deeper contexts)

...be it some utilitarian + reactionary intent or the angst-driven one....especially as it extends the time it will be inflicted on the whole body.

But what is the net effect of it?

Damning conclusion of might makes right?

Instead of a basic dignity to think of what if shoe was on other foot?

Wish I could tell to each Indian in the end...you are each a minority in some way in the end.

This thing has no end once it starts and courses this way! Minority today gets gut punched...and then new ones are "created" and "found" next.

Chopping block power-freak politics dont end easily, certainly not in place as huge and diverse as India is.

How can one truly fight it and hem it in?

We are all human beings in the end are we not? Should that not be the 1st basic building block?

Why is the simplest thing almost always the hardest thing to realise in too many people?

People have to be attuned to what power is and how they are its pawns (things that should be our strengths we hold dear are used to inflict pain and damage on other human souls).

It is that simple....enough people realising that and not being suckers to it. But incredibly hard in the end to liberate the mind like this.

 

[Jackdaws]

India is now basically educated via WhatsApp. And most of it absolute rubbish. As unemployment rises, it's worse. I don't know what they did before in their villages but now they are all glued to their cell phones consuming cheap data.

 

[Jackdaws]

Look at this nonsense

Gujarat official suspended over Godse topic in school competition

Mitaben Gavli, a probationary class-2 district youth development officer, was suspended immediately after minister of state for sports, youth and cultural activities Harsh Saghavi assured action in the matter.

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[Nilgiri]

Consider the parallels (and differences) w.r.t "low trust society" phenomenon in the Indian context and the Greek one....

@Vaggos may find this interesting to watch and I would be grateful if he has any comments/opinions he wants to share on it:

IMO this phenomenon goes a long way in explaining that the "lazy" (or other reductive) stereotype asserted by whomever is actually blatantly wrong in such cases (where low-trust has arisen and/or been inherited long term with regards to the govt apparatus).

Rather it is TRUST (well reposed from the people toward the govt) that is an x-factor catalyst in converting the hard labour of people into long term wealth and success of the whole.

Members may find recent replies of mine regarding TR economy interesting to muse further on this...

This is the flaw in a lot of thinking these days.

WHERE does the govt get its funding from?

A govt is NOT a value-creating entity like a business.

It extracts from the present and worse extracts from the future.

These are all productive resources in the end with costs for taking them away and re-deploying them by govt power.

So its not "the govt" that will pay the difference....it will be the current and future turkish citizen (direct taxpayer or even general person by way of inflation tax inflicted).

Then you have to ask was it worth it?...especially given they did not have a choice in the matter? (You see how important a govt has to get it right given its cudgel size?)

A govt obviously has to exist and has to function (anarchy is often much like tyranny after all).....but this has to be kept to a minimum + focused + balanced as possible to build trust well.

i.e A fundamental recognition of what purpose a govt is there for and keep it hemmed into that.

That is the whole point in having institutions and checks and balances....to prevent autocratic executive over-reach (which can be either a left or right wing thing in the end....both equally bad).

Autocracy inevitable expands the govt into things it is simply not good at (since its not value-creation entity) and leaves a wake of bad faith, usurped trust and failure.

This can be disguised+delayed quite some time depending on the emotional politics of the country (often in some hope it will dissipate even though the executive does nothing to reverse)....but it will come due in the end, there is no escaping that.

i.e the role of sound institutions in building up trust over time where there is situation of relative scarcity of it for whatever reason(s).

==========================================

Especially for the Indian members:

Consider (if you do have the time and interest) where this all fits in what is covered in this interesting exchange (the "baked in" deficits + strengths of the indian system as it lends itself to capex+incentive intensive manufacturing versus making do more pragmatically first in the interim with the more "tappable" services in the overall "trust-deficit" system india has now evolved...till that trust is more heady to shift its investment weights around more efficiently):

I wonder if this plays some part in explaining the rough contextual equivalents in southern europe greater reliance themselves on tourism + services given the relative "low-trust" setting society inherited w.r.t the overall larger european context.

Just some points to muse/ponder when one has the time/interest for it....and then let us know here what you think.

The conversation points in the 2nd half of the 2nd video also starts to touch upon the importance of robust institutionalism to build the trust and human capital for any model at large to work.

I mentioned something to @Joe Shearer only too recently about the importance of trust when it comes to those who occupy corridors of power.

Actually Mr. Rajan in some parts (esp in the 2nd half) says what I have been saying a long time almost word for word.

So these all appeared somewhat coincidentally in a short time in a very similar underlying vein and pulse. Odd yet pleasant how that happens from time to time.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Consider the parallels (and differences) w.r.t "low trust society" phenomenon in the Indian context and the Greek one....

@Vaggos may find this interesting to watch and I would be grateful if he has any comments/opinions he wants to share on it:

IMO this phenomenon goes a long way in explaining that the "lazy" (or other reductive) stereotype asserted by whomever is actually blatantly wrong in such cases (where low-trust has arisen and/or been inherited long term with regards to the govt apparatus).

Rather it is TRUST (well reposed from the people toward the govt) that is an x-factor catalyst in converting the hard labour of people into long term wealth and success of the whole.

Members may find recent replies of mine regarding TR economy interesting to muse further on this...



i.e the role of sound institutions in building up trust over time where there is situation of relative scarcity of it for whatever reason(s).

==========================================

Especially for the Indian members:

Consider (if you do have the time and interest) where this all fits in what is covered in this interesting exchange (the "baked in" deficits + strengths of the indian system as it lends itself to capex+incentive intensive manufacturing versus making do more pragmatically first in the interim with the more "tappable" services in the overall "trust-deficit" system india has now evolved...till that trust is more heady to shift its investment weights around more efficiently):

I wonder if this plays some part in explaining the rough contextual equivalents in southern europe greater reliance themselves on tourism + services given the relative "low-trust" setting society inherited w.r.t the overall larger european context.

Just some points to muse/ponder when one has the time/interest for it....and then let us know here what you think.

The conversation points in the 2nd half of the 2nd video also starts to touch upon the importance of robust institutionalism to build the trust and human capital for any model at large to work.

I mentioned something to @Joe Shearer only too recently about the importance of trust when it comes to those who occupy corridors of power.

Actually Mr. Rajan in some parts (esp in the 2nd half) says what I have been saying a long time almost word for word.

So these all appeared somewhat coincidentally in a short time in a very similar underlying vein and pulse. Odd yet pleasant how that happens from time to time.

That was excessive modesty in full plumage.

What you had been arguing was neither odd nor coincidental. There is a very clear link, and both you and Mr. Rajan picked up on it. The curiousity is in that it is not always so explicit in expert analyses.

 

[Nilgiri]

The biggest threat/problem with the J-10CE is that it gives the PAF an affordable way to rapidly scale up its long-range air-to-air capability.

The IAF will have to plan for a potential 90-strong fleet of J-10CEs. But it can't bank on attrition or serviceability rates to do its job. The J-10CE is China's mainstay fighter, so there's always going to be a steady supply line of spare parts, replacement jets, etc.

You can't guarantee that with any European fighter. E.g., the IAF's buying used M2Ks for spare parts.

In a weird way, Egypt, UAE, and Indonesia did the PAF a solid by taking up spots in the Rafale's production line-up. This might explain why India is now seriously focusing on new homegrown 4.5+/5-minus designs like TEDBF/ORCA. I honestly hope Bangladesh figures out the Typhoon or, heck, KF-21 situations so that the IAF's full-up forced to look in-house. No doubt that'd be a huge boon for the Indian industry, but the PAF will bank on India's institutional issues to slow TEDBF and ORCA, one way or another.

I'd like to unpack some of the far more important deeper undercurrents of relevance with you @Bilal Khan(Quwa) regarding this if you would like to.

@Indos as well.

It goes much deeper than the icebergs that float on surface (that seem to be what lot of folks prefer to get stuck to discussing). Even at the iceberg-only level, many do not pay heed (i.e past what glints) to the fact they are mostly under water.

Again I will give it some time first to see if any others have comments they want to share.

You both may also find the discussion over the last few pages (from about page 24) a useful context in the interim to peruse a bit (as to your tastes) first....as there is a psyche thing that governs a lot of where I come from (at the deepest meaningful level bearing out).

 

[crixus]

ISLAMABAD: Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan said on Tuesday he would like to have a televised debate with his Indian counterpart, Narendra Modi, to resolve differences between the two neighbours.
The nuclear-powered rivals have shared antagonistic relations since gaining independence 75 years ago, fighting three wars



"I would love to debate with PM Narendra Modi on TV," Khan told Russia Today in an interview, adding that it would be beneficial for the billion people in the subcontinent if differences could be resolved through debate.
India's Ministry of External Affairs did not immediately respond to a Reuters request for comment.


"India became a hostile country so trade with them became minimal," Khan said, stressing his government's policy was to have trade relations with all countries.
Khan's remarks follow similar comments recently by Pakistan's top commercial official, Razzak Dawood, who, according to media, told journalists he supported trade ties with India, which would benefit both sides.
Khan said Pakistan's regional trading options were already limited, with Iran, its southwestern neighbour, under US sanctions and Afghanistan, to the west, involved in decades of war.
Pakistan shares strong economic ties with its northern neighbour, China, which has committed billions of dollars for infrastructure and other projects under its Belt and Road Initiative.
Khan's interview came on the eve of a visit to Moscow, where he will meet President Vladimir Putin - the first visit by a Pakistani leader to Russia in two decades.
The two-day visit for talks on economic cooperation was planned before the current crisis over Ukraine.
"This doesn't concern us, we have a bilateral relation with Russia and we really want to strength it," Khan said of the Ukraine crisis.

Imran Khan: Pakistan's Imran Khan wants TV debate with PM Modi to resolve issues | India News - Times of India

India News: Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan said on Tuesday he would like to have a televised debate with his Indian counterpart, Narendra Modi, to resolve di

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

@Jackdaws @Nilgiri @Zapper @T-123456

 

[crixus]

He wants to debate the Prime Minister of neighboring country to resolve issues , seriously how can a PM say something like this ?

The funny part is even spokesman of Indian foreign office ignored this when asked to comment on it

 

[TR_123456]

ISLAMABAD: Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan said on Tuesday he would like to have a televised debate with his Indian counterpart, Narendra Modi, to resolve differences between the two neighbours.
The nuclear-powered rivals have shared antagonistic relations since gaining independence 75 years ago, fighting three wars



"I would love to debate with PM Narendra Modi on TV," Khan told Russia Today in an interview, adding that it would be beneficial for the billion people in the subcontinent if differences could be resolved through debate.
India's Ministry of External Affairs did not immediately respond to a Reuters request for comment.


"India became a hostile country so trade with them became minimal," Khan said, stressing his government's policy was to have trade relations with all countries.
Khan's remarks follow similar comments recently by Pakistan's top commercial official, Razzak Dawood, who, according to media, told journalists he supported trade ties with India, which would benefit both sides.
Khan said Pakistan's regional trading options were already limited, with Iran, its southwestern neighbour, under US sanctions and Afghanistan, to the west, involved in decades of war.
Pakistan shares strong economic ties with its northern neighbour, China, which has committed billions of dollars for infrastructure and other projects under its Belt and Road Initiative.
Khan's interview came on the eve of a visit to Moscow, where he will meet President Vladimir Putin - the first visit by a Pakistani leader to Russia in two decades.
The two-day visit for talks on economic cooperation was planned before the current crisis over Ukraine.
"This doesn't concern us, we have a bilateral relation with Russia and we really want to strength it," Khan said of the Ukraine crisis.

Imran Khan: Pakistan's Imran Khan wants TV debate with PM Modi to resolve issues | India News - Times of India

India News: Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan said on Tuesday he would like to have a televised debate with his Indian counterpart, Narendra Modi, to resolve di

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

@Jackdaws @Nilgiri @Zapper @T-123456

Why a TV debate?

 

[Paro]

seems you Indians are pretty arrogant ?? maybe it's your nature, even though there is nothing behind all that, but the PM wants to resolve issues, you guys don't seem to be interested in solving problems?

Well for someone muting with arrogance, you clearly don't seem to have any clue about the history or the previous attempts. Probably you can start from the Kargil war, Mumbai 26/11, and end with Pathankot.

 

[crixus]

Why a TV debate?

I only heard leaders in govt. and opposition challenges each other for TV debates . Never heard a head of state challenging the head of state other country for TV debates.

PM Imran Khan has categorically said he will not talk to India till it restores the special status of J&K and now he is challenging Indian PM for TV debate

 

[crixus]

seems you Indians are pretty arrogant ?? maybe it's your nature, even though there is nothing behind all that, but the PM wants to resolve issues, you guys don't seem to be interested in solving problems?

Do you think TV debate is the right platform to resolve the longstanding issues ?
I am still wondering how can two individuals ( even if they are head of states) resolve the long standing issues , I think he is over simplifying the issues or just speaking for the sake of speaking.......

 

[TR_123456]

To be honest I only heard leaders in govt. and opposition challenges each other for TV debates . Never heard a head of state challenging the head of state of state of other country for TV debates.

PM Imran Khan has categorically said he will not talk to India till it restores the special status of J&K and now he is challenging Indian PM for TV debate

Was this an official statement?

 

[Paro]

He wants to talk to debate the Prime Minister of neighboring country to resolve issues , seriously how can a PM say something like this ?

The funny part is even spokesman of Indian foreign office ignored this when asked to comment on it

He's just going through a fomo phase.

The west isn't giving him importance, the western border is heating up, his economy is in shambles and the establishment has decided to go neutral on him while the opposition is rising up, and the Chinese are soon to cut off inflow.

He's under pressure to show something. He knows damn well after verbally abusing the Indian Prime Minister for years and refusing to sit on the same table until Kashmir's status is restored the other side won't take him seriously anyway. It's for his national consumption.

 

[TR_123456]

seems you Indians are pretty arrogant ?? maybe it's your nature, even though there is nothing behind all that, but the PM wants to resolve issues, you guys don't seem to be interested in solving problems?

Ever heard of countries solving problems in a TV debate?

 

[crixus]

Was this an official statement?

No response from Indian foreign office , he said this in an interview with a Russian TV

Regarding the no talks till , the special status of Kashmir restored

No talks till India restores Kashmir special status: PM

In a meeting with Trump in New York on Monday, Imran says will insist that peace dialogue regarding Afghanistan resume.

www.dawn.com

 

[crixus]

@T-123456 , I really want to understand the Turkish take on Pakistani leadership ( both civilian and military)

 

[Captain_Azeri_76]

Ever heard of countries solving problems in a TV debate?

better than nothing I guess?