India Indian Coffee House

[Joe Shearer]

Yes a woman will remain but if number of woman increase in community by religious conversion , won't it increase birth rate ?

That is hypothetical. Nothing like that has happened. Look at the published figures.

 

[Joe Shearer]

From taxes , but we are already in budget deficit , you want to increase our deficit ??? Are you that worse at economics

Please don't teach me economics. It is also a difficult proposition to teach you that a country's development increases sharply due to education.

My suggestion is that you clear your mind of Sanghi ideas and approach this subject.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No why ? If you don't support those fatwa calling for murder of someone , it should be a issue to be raked up and you should also raise concern

Not at all. You have yourself pointed out that there is a police procedure. That procedure is not for fatwas, it is for hate speech. That is applicable to Hindus and to Muslims.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes a woman will remain but if number of woman increase in community by religious conversion , won't it increase birth rate ?

And for your info , muslim women Do have more children compared to a Hindu women , isn't it a exploitation of females

Who said so? The figures show the opposite. If you have a different view, show the evidence.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Mister, you need to think clearly and provide evidence for the following:

1. Muslims are joining extremist radical organisations in greater numbers and in greater proportions of their population than other communities;
2. Muslims get education reservations;
3. Muslims should be sripped of their reservations in educational institutions;
4. Muslims reproduce faster than Hindus;
5. Muslims promote Love Jihad;
6. Muslim polygamy should be banned.
7. Muslim fatwas serve as extensions of illegal social control by defining acts as blasphemy, that are not so defined in law, there being no blasphemy provision in law.

Please show the evidence.

If these are your personal views and non-negotiable, please say so.

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Jackdaws

Any comments? That is, over and above your observation that the vast majority of Indians did not know about this.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The thread is open once again, for comments.

 

[Nilgiri]

Just a reminder that it is fine to attack the message (within scope of forum rules), but not fine to attack the messenger (ad-hominem, insults etc). You will receive warning points if you do so.

=================================================================================================

Separately, it is my opinion that collectivist "vigilantism" (often driven by tribalism) is a total affront to the rule of law.

Every crime must face due process and strictly....and yes you are innocent till proven guilty for an extremely important reason.

The more mature and developed a society is....(generally) the more it is able to do this without bringing in identity politics, which in turn is often indicative of the current situation of strife in larger society.

 

[Jackdaws]

@Jackdaws

Any comments? That is, over and above your observation that the vast majority of Indians did not know about this.

Yes. It's a pure agenda push, nothing else. The sense of outrage is understandable - visuals are a powerful medium.

What's not kosher is the Govt. endorsing it and using state machinery to push its agenda.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Yes. It's a pure agenda push, nothing else. The sense of outrage is understandable - visuals are a powerful medium.

What's not kosher is the Govt. endorsing it and using state machinery to push its agenda.

As a film, it is a film. We may like it, we may dislike it, we may be deeply moved by it. It remains a film.

What has been done to it is to turn a human tragedy into a weapon of war.

What has also been done is to cast into shade the much older genocide (in the real sense) in Jammu, and the bleeding casualties in the Vale. These will now always be met by the easily influenced students of social media and the world of films, exclaiming, "But what about....."

 

[Jackdaws]

As a film, it is a film. We may like it, we may dislike it, we may be deeply moved by it. It remains a film.

What has been done to it is to turn a human tragedy into a weapon of war.

What has also been done is to cast into shade the much older genocide (in the real sense) in Jammu, and the bleeding casualties in the Vale. These will now always be met by the easily influenced students of social media and the world of films, exclaiming, "But what about....."

What happened in the erstwhile Kingdom before independence has no bearing on the Republic. The Republic of India can't be held responsible for the Jallianwala Bagh massacre or hanging Bhagat Singh. The Kingdom of J&K thru Maharaja was a British protectorate.

 

[Nilgiri]

The Kashmiri Muslims lost any moral standing in their demands after this happened because they were never fighting for Kashmiris but they were fighting for their religious beliefs.

I have one issue I'd like to know more on from your perspective and @Joe Shearer et al.

How many % wise do you venture were supportive of it to collectivise like this on the whole?

Certain numerous foul things you need only 10% extreme/vocal enough....and then how do you divvy up complicity of the remaining 90% etc.

Did Tamil grievances, taken to extreme by "Tigers" (including forced eviction, terrorism and murder of minority groups...in many ways paralleling the K. pandit story) become 100% complicit to the latter?

Consider how Lanka then over long time...."resolved" this. What are the parallels there too for how India resolved/resolving it? What are the contexts before the extreme bad surfaced like it did..... why did it all need to happen the way it did?

 

[Jackdaws]

I have one issue I'd like to know more on from your perspective and @Joe Shearer et al.

How many % wise do you venture were supportive of it to collectivise like this on the whole?

Certain numerous foul things you need only 10% extreme/vocal enough....and then how do you divvy up complicity of the remaining 90% etc.

Did Tamil grievances, taken to extreme by "Tigers" (including forced eviction, terrorism and murder of minority groups...in many ways paralleling the K. pandit story) become 100% complicit to the latter?

Consider how Lanka then over long time...."resolved" this. What are the parallels there too for how India resolved/resolving it? What are the contexts before the extreme bad surfaced like it did..... why did it all need to happen the way it did?

Regarding Tamils in Lanka - from the few conversations I've had with Lankan Tamils - the LTTE had almost 100% of the Lankan Tamils - they were very driven by the idea of the Tamil Eelam irrespective of gender, age and socioeconomic status. The only exception was what the Lankans call "Indian Tamils" who have been there for 3-4 generations and were brought by the Brits to work there. Muralidharan the great off-spinner is what is called an "Indian Tamil" on Lanka.


It is difficult to put a number in Kashmir - because it would have been different in Kargil, Ladakh, Jammu then say in Srinagar or Baramula. But in the valley itself in the first phase in the late 80s / early 90s - the support for this "azaadi" amongst Kashmiri Muslims was at almost 100%. Again, this is a only in the Valley

 

[HTurk]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507788732237291520

Thoughts?

 

[Joe Shearer]

It is difficult to put a number in Kashmir - because it would have been different in Kargil, Ladakh, Jammu then say in Srinagar or Baramula. But in the valley itself in the first phase in the late 80s / early 90s - the support for this "azaadi" amongst Kashmiri Muslims was at almost 100%. Again, this is a only in the Valley

Not to fall into the trap of those idiots who can't see what is in front of them, and under their noses, I do want to point out that today, 100% of the people in the Valley want to lead normal lives, as some of them have seen in TV shows, and in personal visits down to the plains.

Of these, a significant portion might want to see additional constitutional acknowledgement of the status that Hari Singh demanded at the time of accession; this effectively means getting the Supreme Court to rule on the legality of the so-called abrogation of Art. 370 (Disclaimer: I am very sure that Art. 370 served no useful purpose, but am also very sure that abrogating it, due to the way in which the constitutional provisions were drafted, was impossible, and illegal).

Another, still significant section might want independence from both Indian and Pakistani hegemony, and some sort of self-rule that is not tied to the constitution of either India or Pakistan.

A fourth section, represented by the Hurriyat, wants and has stated that it wants merger with Pakistan.

I am very reluctant to put numbers to it, because there is no earthly way in which the true opinion of a Kashmiri (=resident of the Vale) can be ascertained.

 

[Joe Shearer]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507788732237291520

Thoughts?

This is precisely my fear; before the performance in Taiwan, the Chinese might try a dress rehearsal in Ladakh/Spiti & Lahaul/Ngari Prefecture - Pithoragarh/ Chumbi Valley/Arunachal Pradesh, with any one target or in any combination.

They will take the following steps:

1. Very careful and detailed planning and preparation;
2. building of roads and bases for the planned attack;
3. practice their logistics movements several times, ensuring that they are able to build up multi-division level troop and materiel concentration before the Indian Army can react;
4. keep their objectives (target locations) as secret as possible, until the very last moment;
5. attack in a completely unique and tailor-made way depending which target / targets are chosen.

My money is on Spiti & Lahaul, or Pithoragarh.

In terms of timing, it is likely to be in the period June - September, when the Indian Army is unable to react as it might have wished, due to the monsoons.

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1507788732237291520

Thoughts?

It is a concern for sure.... Vietnam is another country that will have to be prepared for shenanigans @Viva_vietnamm

 

[Nilgiri]

I am very reluctant to put numbers to it, because there is no earthly way in which the true opinion of a Kashmiri (=resident of the Vale) can be ascertained.

Exactly.... this stuff is incredibly complicated stuff I have found (things close to me and those I have gotten into since of this nature).

Regarding Tamils in Lanka - from the few conversations I've had with Lankan Tamils - the LTTE had almost 100% of the Lankan Tamils - they were very driven by the idea of the Tamil Eelam irrespective of gender, age and socioeconomic status. The only exception was what the Lankans call "Indian Tamils" who have been there for 3-4 generations and were brought by the Brits to work there. Muralidharan the great off-spinner is what is called an "Indian Tamil" on Lanka.


It is difficult to put a number in Kashmir - because it would have been different in Kargil, Ladakh, Jammu then say in Srinagar or Baramula. But in the valley itself in the first phase in the late 80s / early 90s - the support for this "azaadi" amongst Kashmiri Muslims was at almost 100%. Again, this is a only in the Valley

I'm not talking about support for "Azaadi" (whatever that even meant and means to each Kashmiri)....Im precisely referring to the support to brutality towards the Pandits...and any defenceless person in general.

Maybe you are also confusing this same thing on what I am precisely asking about the Tamils of Sri Lanka vis a vis the LTTE (i.e final full support to the brutalities on defenceless people....when cognisance on this was established commensurately).

Consider what this one says (its not the only one):

How Sri Lanka Won the War

Lessons in strategy from an overlooked victory

thediplomat.com

The LTTE’s principal problem was its finite manpower base. Only 12 percent of Sri Lanka’s population were Lankan Tamils and of these it was believed that only some 300,000 actively supported the LTTE. Moreover, the LTTE’s legitimacy as an organization was declining.

300,000 / 2 million = ?%

That % is enough to extend seamlessly and concretely?

How many Tamils (NOT Indian Tamils) lived in colombo (originally of own volition/legacy or forced to move there by LTTE and proxies) in say the 80s/90s/00s do you think?...esp when you add the Moors in?

They were fervent LTTE supporters (given they are not in the LTTE controlled area which is surely an important reference to have)?

What was their overall and sustained ability to go on with their lives like (with large sinhala majority near/around them) during this period of grave LTTE terrorism?

...and why was that?

Some day (if you want more perspective) go ask a wise Turk about the number of Kurds living in Istanbul...past and present....during the worst episodes of the story even.


Read this in depth when you have time if you will (written in 2000 near the apex of LTTE territory control):

Welcome to UTHRJ

Sri Lanka, human rights, Jaffna, LTTE, Tamil Eelam, Eelam, armed groups, uthr, uthrj, Rajani, Thiranagama, child soldiers, suicide, Prabaharan, Vellupillai, armed conflict, civil war, Rajan, Hoole, Tamils, Singhalese, Buddhist, Sinhalese, Sinhala, Thamil, EPRLF, EROS, PLOT,TELO, Army...

web.archive.org

Murdered in 1989, what was her story?

Rajani Thiranagama - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So I ask again, were ALL (or even a plurality) the Tamils of Sri Lanka assuredly supportive of and/or complicit in the heinous actions of LTTE? (Especially as these actions reached them over time past the info-barriers and doctrination methods LTTE put up)

You say you spoke to a few lankan tamils.....was it enough to form your impression?

How many Lankan Tamils do you think I have talked to?...in the mother tongue....and was that enough for the impression I formed?

You know how many times this kind of convo has happened on my end in foreign shores with surface headline/impression types?

Oh you are Indian?
Yes.
Where in India?
I'm Tamil
OHHH...hehe, Tamil Tigers
*bites lip*...(no)

- Right from fairly young age tbh...I had to deal with this BS.

How actions of so few indelibly have stained the whole lot of us in eyes of all too many...


I always wondered how many Kashmiris also have to live with same thing ...always having to explain, having to be on the defensive....and seem like a terrorist to someone when you explain the other side of things...

It helps and heals?.... or harms?


Within those that are (whatever the hypothetical % is) ....How many (further) get held hostage or have to make do with complexes and syndromes formed by a web of extremism permeating around them?

i.e is it purely a voluntary fair decision making to assign complicity in this nebulous area?....with grievances in the head resting as they do as well in however many?

You seem to think there is some easy answer to this to collectively apportion blame on the entirety....like you deeply lived among and surveyed such people.

This misunderstanding is the exact main thing that often fed and feeds into agnihotri's psyche (or its emboldening, acceptance and normalisation) and the central-chauvinism "majoritarian might makes right" ego at large that props it up.

i.e what takes larger proportions there (compared to diverse individuals)...of narratives of simple blunt problems (of the whole) needing simple blunt solutions (on the whole).

If you are truly interested in this subject at large.....you will also have to do a deep delve into Ireland* w.r.t what extremist-complicity actually was on all sides involved.

It is very easy to reductively split the entire thing into orange order vs extreme sinn feinn ...and only cherry pick and weight the worst episodes of both on the larger population.

But you would be wrong to do so.

Easy answers are generally the wrong answers (copied or learned only by rote)....hence why the need for "show your work".

What was the proper, fair and rational answer for Kashmir post 1948?....remains the main question rather than insert into a small slice.

======================================================================

*As much as orange order et al. tried/tries vis a vis sinn feinn et al, is there today severe bloody revolt in derry and other areas of N. Eire?...given the context there that has precipitated such in the past?...and the memories still fresh about it?

Why? Whats changed? People get weary over time you know...."with their tanks and their bombs and their bombs and their guns...in your head, in your head they are fighting..." as Dolores expressed...

I think her other great song "do you have to let it linger" is even deeper/darker/haunting one in the end than it may outwardly may seem...

Can any feeling be turned on and off like a lightbulb?

But many many people do understand such things subconsciously in the end.... that is often all too easy to dismiss with enough distance away from them....

You have to give every population of the world benefit of this doubt in the end....especially if you have given it to your own to begin with.

 

[Paro]

Exactly.... this stuff is incredibly complicated stuff I have found (things close to me and those I have gotten into since of this nature).




I'm not talking about support for "Azaadi" (whatever that even meant and means to each Kashmiri)....Im precisely referring to the support to brutality towards the Pandits...and any defenceless person in general.

Maybe you are also confusing this same thing on what I am precisely asking about the Tamils of Sri Lanka vis a vis the LTTE (i.e final full support to the brutalities on defenceless people....when cognisance on this was established commensurately).

Consider what this one says (its not the only one):

How Sri Lanka Won the War

Lessons in strategy from an overlooked victory

thediplomat.com

300,000 / 2 million = ?%

That % is enough to extend seamlessly and concretely?

How many Tamils (NOT Indian Tamils) lived in colombo (originally of own volition/legacy or forced to move there by LTTE and proxies) in say the 80s/90s/00s do you think?...esp when you add the Moors in?

They were fervent LTTE supporters (given they are not in the LTTE controlled area which is surely an important reference to have)?

What was their overall and sustained ability to go on with their lives like (with large sinhala majority near/around them) during this period of grave LTTE terrorism?

...and why was that?

Some day (if you want more perspective) go ask a wise Turk about the number of Kurds living in Istanbul...past and present....during the worst episodes of the story even.


Read this in depth when you have time if you will (written in 2000 near the apex of LTTE territory control):

Welcome to UTHRJ

Sri Lanka, human rights, Jaffna, LTTE, Tamil Eelam, Eelam, armed groups, uthr, uthrj, Rajani, Thiranagama, child soldiers, suicide, Prabaharan, Vellupillai, armed conflict, civil war, Rajan, Hoole, Tamils, Singhalese, Buddhist, Sinhalese, Sinhala, Thamil, EPRLF, EROS, PLOT,TELO, Army...

web.archive.org

Murdered in 1989, what was her story?

Rajani Thiranagama - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So I ask again, were ALL (or even a plurality) the Tamils of Sri Lanka assuredly supportive of and/or complicit in the heinous actions of LTTE? (Especially as these actions reached them over time past the info-barriers and doctrination methods LTTE put up)

You say you spoke to a few lankan tamils.....was it enough to form your impression?

How many Lankan Tamils do you think I have talked to?...in the mother tongue....and was that enough for the impression I formed?

You know how many times this kind of convo has happened on my end in foreign shores with surface headline/impression types?

Oh you are Indian?
Yes.
Where in India?
I'm Tamil
OHHH...hehe, Tamil Tigers
*bites lip*...(no)

- Right from fairly young age tbh...I had to deal with this BS.

How actions of so few indelibly have stained the whole lot of us in eyes of all too many...


I always wondered how many Kashmiris also have to live with same thing ...always having to explain, having to be on the defensive....and seem like a terrorist to someone when you explain the other side of things...

It helps and heals?.... or harms?


Within those that are (whatever the hypothetical % is) ....How many (further) get held hostage or have to make do with complexes and syndromes formed by a web of extremism permeating around them?

i.e is it purely a voluntary fair decision making to assign complicity in this nebulous area?....with grievances in the head resting as they do as well in however many?

You seem to think there is some easy answer to this to collectively apportion blame on the entirety....like you deeply lived among and surveyed such people.

This misunderstanding is the exact main thing that often fed and feeds into agnihotri's psyche (or its emboldening, acceptance and normalisation) and the central-chauvinism "majoritarian might makes right" ego at large that props it up.

i.e what takes larger proportions there (compared to diverse individuals)...of narratives of simple blunt problems (of the whole) needing simple blunt solutions (on the whole).

If you are truly interested in this subject at large.....you will also have to do a deep delve into Ireland* w.r.t what extremist-complicity actually was on all sides involved.

It is very easy to reductively split the entire thing into orange order vs extreme sinn feinn ...and only cherry pick and weight the worst episodes of both on the larger population.

But you would be wrong to do so.

Easy answers are generally the wrong answers (copied or learned only by rote)....hence why the need for "show your work".

What was the proper, fair and rational answer for Kashmir post 1948?....remains the main question rather than insert into a small slice.

======================================================================

*As much as orange order et al. tried/tries vis a vis sinn feinn et al, is there today severe bloody revolt in derry and other areas of N. Eire?...given the context there that has precipitated such in the past?...and the memories still fresh about it?

Why? Whats changed? People get weary over time you know...."with their tanks and their bombs and their bombs and their guns...in your head, in your head they are fighting..." as Dolores expressed...

I think her other great song "do you have to let it linger" is even deeper/darker/haunting one in the end than it may outwardly may seem...

Can any feeling be turned on and off like a lightbulb?

But many many people do understand such things subconsciously in the end.... that is often all too easy to dismiss with enough distance away from them....

You have to give every population of the world benefit of this doubt in the end....especially if you have given it to your own to begin with.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Exactly.... this stuff is incredibly complicated stuff I have found (things close to me and those I have gotten into since of this nature).




I'm not talking about support for "Azaadi" (whatever that even meant and means to each Kashmiri)....Im precisely referring to the support to brutality towards the Pandits...and any defenceless person in general.

Maybe you are also confusing this same thing on what I am precisely asking about the Tamils of Sri Lanka vis a vis the LTTE (i.e final full support to the brutalities on defenceless people....when cognisance on this was established commensurately).

Consider what this one says (its not the only one):

How Sri Lanka Won the War

Lessons in strategy from an overlooked victory

thediplomat.com

300,000 / 2 million = ?%

That % is enough to extend seamlessly and concretely?

How many Tamils (NOT Indian Tamils) lived in colombo (originally of own volition/legacy or forced to move there by LTTE and proxies) in say the 80s/90s/00s do you think?...esp when you add the Moors in?

They were fervent LTTE supporters (given they are not in the LTTE controlled area which is surely an important reference to have)?

What was their overall and sustained ability to go on with their lives like (with large sinhala majority near/around them) during this period of grave LTTE terrorism?

...and why was that?

Some day (if you want more perspective) go ask a wise Turk about the number of Kurds living in Istanbul...past and present....during the worst episodes of the story even.


Read this in depth when you have time if you will (written in 2000 near the apex of LTTE territory control):

Welcome to UTHRJ

Sri Lanka, human rights, Jaffna, LTTE, Tamil Eelam, Eelam, armed groups, uthr, uthrj, Rajani, Thiranagama, child soldiers, suicide, Prabaharan, Vellupillai, armed conflict, civil war, Rajan, Hoole, Tamils, Singhalese, Buddhist, Sinhalese, Sinhala, Thamil, EPRLF, EROS, PLOT,TELO, Army...

web.archive.org

Murdered in 1989, what was her story?

Rajani Thiranagama - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So I ask again, were ALL (or even a plurality) the Tamils of Sri Lanka assuredly supportive of and/or complicit in the heinous actions of LTTE? (Especially as these actions reached them over time past the info-barriers and doctrination methods LTTE put up)

You say you spoke to a few lankan tamils.....was it enough to form your impression?

How many Lankan Tamils do you think I have talked to?...in the mother tongue....and was that enough for the impression I formed?

You know how many times this kind of convo has happened on my end in foreign shores with surface headline/impression types?

Oh you are Indian?
Yes.
Where in India?
I'm Tamil
OHHH...hehe, Tamil Tigers
*bites lip*...(no)

- Right from fairly young age tbh...I had to deal with this BS.

How actions of so few indelibly have stained the whole lot of us in eyes of all too many...


I always wondered how many Kashmiris also have to live with same thing ...always having to explain, having to be on the defensive....and seem like a terrorist to someone when you explain the other side of things...

It helps and heals?.... or harms?


Within those that are (whatever the hypothetical % is) ....How many (further) get held hostage or have to make do with complexes and syndromes formed by a web of extremism permeating around them?

i.e is it purely a voluntary fair decision making to assign complicity in this nebulous area?....with grievances in the head resting as they do as well in however many?

You seem to think there is some easy answer to this to collectively apportion blame on the entirety....like you deeply lived among and surveyed such people.

This misunderstanding is the exact main thing that often fed and feeds into agnihotri's psyche (or its emboldening, acceptance and normalisation) and the central-chauvinism "majoritarian might makes right" ego at large that props it up.

i.e what takes larger proportions there (compared to diverse individuals)...of narratives of simple blunt problems (of the whole) needing simple blunt solutions (on the whole).

If you are truly interested in this subject at large.....you will also have to do a deep delve into Ireland* w.r.t what extremist-complicity actually was on all sides involved.

It is very easy to reductively split the entire thing into orange order vs extreme sinn feinn ...and only cherry pick and weight the worst episodes of both on the larger population.

But you would be wrong to do so.

Easy answers are generally the wrong answers (copied or learned only by rote)....hence why the need for "show your work".

What was the proper, fair and rational answer for Kashmir post 1948?....remains the main question rather than insert into a small slice.

======================================================================

*As much as orange order et al. tried/tries vis a vis sinn feinn et al, is there today severe bloody revolt in derry and other areas of N. Eire?...given the context there that has precipitated such in the past?...and the memories still fresh about it?

Why? Whats changed? People get weary over time you know...."with their tanks and their bombs and their bombs and their guns...in your head, in your head they are fighting..." as Dolores expressed...

I think her other great song "do you have to let it linger" is even deeper/darker/haunting one in the end than it may outwardly may seem...

Can any feeling be turned on and off like a lightbulb?

But many many people do understand such things subconsciously in the end.... that is often all too easy to dismiss with enough distance away from them....

You have to give every population of the world benefit of this doubt in the end....especially if you have given it to your own to begin with.

Brilliant note.

My cousin married a Sri Lankan Tamil, and he has a bookful of stories of the encounters they have had, including encounters in India where he was posted in Bengaluru as something very senior in INTEL. Others, from locations all over the world, as quite ordinary people from Mysore, have learnt to describe themselves as Kannadigas!