India Indian Coffee House

[TR_123456]

U r alive! Wow!

Where have you been?

 

[crixus]

Exactly.... this stuff is incredibly complicated stuff I have found (things close to me and those I have gotten into since of this nature).




I'm not talking about support for "Azaadi" (whatever that even meant and means to each Kashmiri)....Im precisely referring to the support to brutality towards the Pandits...and any defenceless person in general.

Maybe you are also confusing this same thing on what I am precisely asking about the Tamils of Sri Lanka vis a vis the LTTE (i.e final full support to the brutalities on defenceless people....when cognisance on this was established commensurately).

Consider what this one says (its not the only one):

How Sri Lanka Won the War

Lessons in strategy from an overlooked victory

thediplomat.com

300,000 / 2 million = ?%

That % is enough to extend seamlessly and concretely?

How many Tamils (NOT Indian Tamils) lived in colombo (originally of own volition/legacy or forced to move there by LTTE and proxies) in say the 80s/90s/00s do you think?...esp when you add the Moors in?

They were fervent LTTE supporters (given they are not in the LTTE controlled area which is surely an important reference to have)?

What was their overall and sustained ability to go on with their lives like (with large sinhala majority near/around them) during this period of grave LTTE terrorism?

...and why was that?

Some day (if you want more perspective) go ask a wise Turk about the number of Kurds living in Istanbul...past and present....during the worst episodes of the story even.


Read this in depth when you have time if you will (written in 2000 near the apex of LTTE territory control):

Welcome to UTHRJ

Sri Lanka, human rights, Jaffna, LTTE, Tamil Eelam, Eelam, armed groups, uthr, uthrj, Rajani, Thiranagama, child soldiers, suicide, Prabaharan, Vellupillai, armed conflict, civil war, Rajan, Hoole, Tamils, Singhalese, Buddhist, Sinhalese, Sinhala, Thamil, EPRLF, EROS, PLOT,TELO, Army...

web.archive.org

Murdered in 1989, what was her story?

Rajani Thiranagama - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So I ask again, were ALL (or even a plurality) the Tamils of Sri Lanka assuredly supportive of and/or complicit in the heinous actions of LTTE? (Especially as these actions reached them over time past the info-barriers and doctrination methods LTTE put up)

You say you spoke to a few lankan tamils.....was it enough to form your impression?

How many Lankan Tamils do you think I have talked to?...in the mother tongue....and was that enough for the impression I formed?

You know how many times this kind of convo has happened on my end in foreign shores with surface headline/impression types?

Oh you are Indian?
Yes.
Where in India?
I'm Tamil
OHHH...hehe, Tamil Tigers
*bites lip*...(no)

- Right from fairly young age tbh...I had to deal with this BS.

How actions of so few indelibly have stained the whole lot of us in eyes of all too many...


I always wondered how many Kashmiris also have to live with same thing ...always having to explain, having to be on the defensive....and seem like a terrorist to someone when you explain the other side of things...

It helps and heals?.... or harms?


Within those that are (whatever the hypothetical % is) ....How many (further) get held hostage or have to make do with complexes and syndromes formed by a web of extremism permeating around them?

i.e is it purely a voluntary fair decision making to assign complicity in this nebulous area?....with grievances in the head resting as they do as well in however many?

You seem to think there is some easy answer to this to collectively apportion blame on the entirety....like you deeply lived among and surveyed such people.

This misunderstanding is the exact main thing that often fed and feeds into agnihotri's psyche (or its emboldening, acceptance and normalisation) and the central-chauvinism "majoritarian might makes right" ego at large that props it up.

i.e what takes larger proportions there (compared to diverse individuals)...of narratives of simple blunt problems (of the whole) needing simple blunt solutions (on the whole).

If you are truly interested in this subject at large.....you will also have to do a deep delve into Ireland* w.r.t what extremist-complicity actually was on all sides involved.

It is very easy to reductively split the entire thing into orange order vs extreme sinn feinn ...and only cherry pick and weight the worst episodes of both on the larger population.

But you would be wrong to do so.

Easy answers are generally the wrong answers (copied or learned only by rote)....hence why the need for "show your work".

What was the proper, fair and rational answer for Kashmir post 1948?....remains the main question rather than insert into a small slice.

======================================================================

*As much as orange order et al. tried/tries vis a vis sinn feinn et al, is there today severe bloody revolt in derry and other areas of N. Eire?...given the context there that has precipitated such in the past?...and the memories still fresh about it?

Why? Whats changed? People get weary over time you know...."with their tanks and their bombs and their bombs and their guns...in your head, in your head they are fighting..." as Dolores expressed...

I think her other great song "do you have to let it linger" is even deeper/darker/haunting one in the end than it may outwardly may seem...

Can any feeling be turned on and off like a lightbulb?

But many many people do understand such things subconsciously in the end.... that is often all too easy to dismiss with enough distance away from them....

You have to give every population of the world benefit of this doubt in the end....especially if you have given it to your own to begin with.

You are not alone , even I have stories about how people of Haryana get treated .

You people are rude , you tone is heavy , you people are hot head , you misbehave I am not saying its not true but generalization.... we have such stereotyping for people from all regions.

My first encounter with a Kashmiri Pandit family was sin 1988 in Jammu , later my mom used to tell about the horrors they have faced , even at that time there stories were pretty heart wrenching

 

[Joe Shearer]

we have such stereotyping for people from all regions.

If you remember this, you will also remember not to fall prey to the generalised political opinions of the film.

 

[crixus]

If you remember this, you will also remember not to fall prey to the generalised political opinions of the film.

I dont , the bottom line why they are sleeping for 32 years and what's special now . Although what ever happened was bad , and these Kashmiris lost the sympathy of whole country after what they did with Pandits .
The stories of forcing the Kashmiri Muslim families to marry their daughters to tangos is pretty common , and these Kashmiris become the ultimate losers . They never visualize that they will be next in queue once the Pandits are out of valley .

 

[Joe Shearer]

I dont , the bottom line why they are sleeping for 32 years and what's special now .

Precisely.

Even now, there is such a lot of noise, but nothing material. It's remained a paper thing; even today, nothing is being done for them. Nothing.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Although what ever happened was bad , and these Kashmiris lost the sympathy of whole country after what they did with Pandits

Do you remember which year that was?

 

[crixus]

Do you remember which year that was?

For me personally , it was after Chattisingpura massacre in 2000 , but the stories of Pandits after they moved in Delhi gave a very bad expression about Kashmiris , its my mom who told me about misery of Pandits and she came to know about it during my family's stay in Jammu from 1987 to 89 .

The most fucked up people are now the moderate Kashmiri Muslims , they are screwed from both sides

 

[Joe Shearer]

For me personally , it was after Chattisingpura massacre in 2000 , but the stories of Pandits after they moved in Delhi gave a very bad expression about Kashmiris , its my mom who told me about misery of Pandits and she came to know about it during my family's stay in Jammu from 1987 to 89 .

The most fucked up people are now the moderate Kashmiri Muslims , they are screwed from both sides

I think you get it.

What should you and I do?

 

[Nilgiri]

Brilliant note.

My cousin married a Sri Lankan Tamil, and he has a bookful of stories of the encounters they have had, including encounters in India where he was posted in Bengaluru as something very senior in INTEL. Others, from locations all over the world, as quite ordinary people from Mysore, have learnt to describe themselves as Kannadigas!

There are lot of them here in Canada, settled and doing quite well overall. Quite politically active too in bi/tri partisan way even.

I made friends with lot of them....and made enemies with others....and all in between.

One of nicest kindest guys I have known...was in my college, a Lankan Tamil.

On other end in same college, I saw despicable pro-LTTE posters plastered in the uni centre main building of all places.

I ripped them down, and got bashed up later for it (someone saw and snitched)....by my own fellow Tamils.

There is some % of LTTE thugs here. It is not pretty thing what resides a long time in hearts and minds....as much promise and goodness that lies with others of same group.

 

[Nilgiri]

My word document's currently getting ravaged by the unorganized mess that's my take on law, ethics and morality, from individual perception of an all-encompassing system and the viability of various forms of punishment, to the lack of knowledge in how to navigate a judicial system without years and years of training, to the unspoken laws of the social contract that dominate communities, the severity of punishment in relation to an individual's social status and power, and since we're on defencehub and war is an ever-present entity here, to the just-war theory and the many forms of abuse it has received, the disproportionality of force employed in modern wars and how arguments validifying and justifying terrorism could be made, the cultural perception of war and the soldier and how it impacts social standing, and much more....
I was just trying to give a picture about the topics that I haven't yet gone into, my posts having been too long and clogging this thread up aside, it's a very complex topic that needs much consideration, so everybody interested please take as much time as you want to respond to this.

IMO, it all becomes lot easier to understand when you factor in most people are tribal first (and they pick and choose whatever is easiest and most convenient for it....even while rejecting whatever other brazen or nuanced forms of it depending on their taste and experience).

My buddy @Deliorman put his take on prevalence at about 60%....and I think thats in the ballpark....and quite possibly lot higher.

But you factor that in first, it mimics the importance of understanding arithmetic and algebra to learn the larger math world.

I feel this is going to stay with us eternally as we are deep in our psyche tribal (the degrees for later life simply vary)....inherited by how we come into existence...dependent on others (i.e family) for security, nourishment, learning....everything.

This merely extends to whom that family was dependent on....our need/realisation grows to include such things as higher powers, larger tribes and so on.

Only a minority of people scale enough high mountains to expand their horizons (on such things) well past the norm (of level ground preference and comfort)....but even then there is limitation by curvature of Earth in most cases.

Why I've been thinking much about this, and am ahead of the curve, at least in your perception.... it's potentially because democracy in the second half of the last decade was given a good spanking, wasn't it?

Democracy has always been given a spanking (since it first spawned, grew and now established in large degree as a reality) and it dishes it out back in various ways too. Like any large thing that exists.

The major factor here was of course Trump and how he behaved, but in my domestic political establishment we've also been having corruption scandals in the highest echelons of government, first our vice-chancellor was exposed on video where he was caught taking drugs and talked about selling off a national newspaper to (pretend) russian oligarchs, then our chancellor tried to undermine the press freedom, there were expositions about his narcissism and how his entourage kissed his ass in exchange for government positions (now he's quit politics and become an adviser to Peter Thiel, and all the state secrets he knows went with him), and more.

Give me another decade, and I will give you other names....with the same issues heh.

Things appear closer and intense in the current time horizon....but they are always there. Further away they get as they recede, they get normalised (only the bright and dark bits offer some sinusoidal variance).

One Canadian band self-depricated their country as recurring landscape of "rocks and trees and trees and rocks and rocks and trees and trees and rocks....and ....water"... just like you see when you are out on a drive here.

But I feel thats true in a much larger sense for the human species too as it travels through time.

The real large "carrier" things (somewhat like a fourier series) are essentially dictated by underlying human psychological response/amnesia in the bulk of the population (i.e what those rocks and trees and watterrrr mean to us in that within horizon instance)

This amplitude (of perceived response and consequence) increases somewhat noticeably though, as the transmittance ability (communication) of the population grows evermore relevant.

The other thing that made me question the democratic structure was covid, more specifically the response to covid on a national and individual level, where I could observe myself getting drawn away from the "freedoms" allowed in my political system and towards authoritarianism, specifically China and how draconian measures managed the pandemic better(false reporting and the current outbreak not too much considered).

Its a schrodinger situation. If you dont want to find stuff out, keep the (info) box closed firmly as you can.

But the damage of doing it this (totalitarian) way is long term thing.

There is real problematic detritus surfacing now inside the CCP (from the larger societal reality and response) of stuff they did 20 - 30 years back. This one will add to that.

I am still a staunch believer in the liberal democratic system....a lot more noise and effect is generated in the short term, but less accumulates in brittle way IMO.

 

[Nilgiri]

None of us know all the consequences of our actions, that's undisputable. What I meant by voting for someone to make the bigger choices, the ones that affect more people, was that I did not think it a viable way of delegating power to this authority. Because you as a voter gain a distorted picture, you get to know them virtually just through means where they control the flow of information.
The posters and adverts that they use come election season tells you only select details either about themselves or their policies, oftentimes overshadowed by the repeated usage of mindless/inflammatory/vague slogans. They're insinuating a few things alongside that, how you as the voter are responsible for the future of your country(true to a degree, but not by the magnitude that an elected government is responsible), how much better they or worse other parties and candidates are, why their leadership is required in these times, among other fearmongering that's more along the lines of race/religion/political beliefs.
It doesn't serve to inform you objectively, it's an advert, a byword for deception.

An educated and mindful populace going to the polls would not accept these practices, potentially wouldn't allow for those opinions to find any fertile ground at all. It's not in either the interest of the voters to waste their time and effort on figuring out if a party relying on these methods is viable, or in the interest of a political system to tolerate them. That's where you're correct, a hypothetical voter and voting population that can analyze their political choices and should be able to choose objectively.
But this ties in with what I previously said about the enormous amount of effort and cost it takes to achieve a high educational level permeating all layers of society...



Your absolute democracy/majoritarian tyranny point I fully agree with.

I'm writing up a few thoughts of mine on the judicial system and what is considered morally and ethically right, so I'll get to your stances on core rights and basic law encompassing all a bit later!

Regarding Hitler and the Nazis' rise to power, this topic is, as you said, a vastly bigger topic than can be handled with a few sentences written here.

One thing that you reminded me with the SPD though was a book by former german Chancellor Helmut Schmidt that I read a while back, where he and some of his friends had written up accounts of their childhood and youth under the NS regime. The Book, literal translation is "Childhood and Youth under Hitler"

While most of the people weren't too politically conscious while growing up, one did get a feeling about how the common people viewed the situation, both before and under Hitler.

Many men, especially those that had served in the Imperial Army during WW1, were a decade later still bitter about the peace imposed by the allies and resented Germany's defeat. They weren't fond of the points made by the nazis, and likened Hitler and his entourage to jokers and clowns, but they did support a rearmament and renewing german military might. This of course only grew during the hardships of the economic crisis, and we can see the colloquialism "desperate times call for desperate measures" come to life.

The Weimar republic itself had it's political spheres controlled by the Reichswehr, Hindenburg was the President and his sidekick Ludendorff supported Hitler in his early years... this probably lingered in the minds of Germany, especially since those two were THE highest military commanders during the war and enjoyed widespread support during it.

Another thing that just came to mind was a letter written by Einstein to Ehrenfest in 1919, which I see as a small piece of contemporary views not unimportant to our discussion here.

So to get this out before it starts collection digital dust on my hard drive, and because it's my one hundredth post.

One thing that is vital to crafting a state is a tangible ideology around which people can gather, and with which they can feel as if their life has a purpose. A meaning to one’s actions done for the sake of a bigger idea is of crucial importance, if not the most important ingredient to making a state.

For another aspect of the human condition is the continuous fear of death and the resulting decisions taken to prolong life as much as possible. Basically every human has, once death as a concept has been partially understood and visualized, come to fear this unknown yet inevitable part of life. Some deal with it better than others, a fair few have learned to live with it and even revel in the fact that there are no guarantees, a bunch are convinced of their ability to overcome death, yet most find solace in either a religious afterlife/rebirth or the alternative of absolute nothingness once life ends.

But life tends to be “long” for most folks nowadays, and there needs to be something to do in the meantime. As humans are social animals, they most often judge their actions, beliefs and hopes in some way that involves their relationship with other humans. The judgment should, for the most part, be beneficial in the sense that it doesn’t alienate others or isolates you, and just about anything you do and that impacts others is unconsciously planned and executed with that goal. Meaning that humans are prisoners to their own evolutionary traits, which doesn’t bode well for the “purpose” so many seek.

The level of organization that the conceptual state allows to flourish among large groups of people is nothing short of astounding. There are a great many different things worked on by individuals or teams of people every single day. They all usually hold some sort of meaning to the people that work on them, it serves to give them a purpose. Yet these are small in scale, awareness of their existence is reserved for a very limited amount of people. In a state, this organization can however be magnified in scale and can extend to thousands, millions or even billions of people. A leader of a state can use his power within it to create goals that should, in theory, benefit everyone. They can mobilize their populace for it and create a goal that has millions of people convinced of its validity.
But, and this is fairly paradoxical, this tends to work better when a leader isn’t elected. If a leader has come to their position by subjugating those that oppose them, then there will be a common enemy for the people to focus their issues and anger against. This leader, should they be intelligent, could use the armed forces of a state to forcefully mobilize the people into working for a goal that is to their benefit. If this can be done quickly and proves itself to be a worthwhile addition to the people’s daily lives, then criticism against the illegitimate ruler will weaken, if the process is repeated and the people see a better future ahead of them due to the continued effort of both themselves and their leader, then the basis of credibility that formed the opposition will erode into dust.
An elected leader on the other hand will have to work with their opposition, both in a parliament/government that has a political representation of it and the everyday person that opposes them. This is a tightrope balancing act at the best of times, but even more so when the professional and common opposition is actively working against this leader.
So, both our elected and unelected leaders can face credible challenges to their rule, yet they might just be too fond of the position to give it up in a fair fight. This makes them susceptible to the age old practice of “fighting dirty”.

Ostracization and its vile cousin demonization have proven themselves to be powerful tools for those willing to use them, and history proves that too many individuals and groups have experienced this terrible fate. Abusers of these practices have found that they can, should they posses the qualities required for leadership, use those two dreadful things for dividing a society and turning members against one another to further their own goals. We’ll take a hypothetical democratic society as an example, in which the actions, beliefs and hopes expressed by its members and leaders should be to the benefit of all. However, there has been an infiltration by someone that does not share these base values, and this infiltration has been masked by an aura of benevolence. They’ve managed to accrue enough clout to gain an influential position in politics and can now use the power that came with it. They start to undermine basic principles, slowly and carefully manipulate those susceptible enough, sow distrust and instability within the organisms of government, and fertilize frustration among the common people. Then they present themselves as an alternative solution that could alleviate the festered ailing, and since the complexity of politics isn’t comprehended by most, they present an easy scapegoat. Likely one that has been stereotyped and blamed for a variety of problems for many years before they came to power. They’ll start slowly by suggestive comments about their involvements and “hidden agenda”, then it’ll become louder in volume and more audacious in suggestiveness, then there will be a misrepresentation of factual truth, and then there will be outright lies that are presented as truths. This, depending on the situation and pain prevalent among the common people, can quickly lead to a radicalization of thought and perversion of morals. I think we can all see our historical and contemporary examples of this process.

Here comes into play our imprisonment to our evolutionary traits — we, as humans, are social animals. Isolation and alienation from our fellow people is something we’re dreading, if we’re not outright scared of it. Radicalization and segregation of society as described above affects all within a society, and needs to be recognized as such, sadly it usually isn’t done by those afflicted by it.
If we don’t go along with the predominant notion of morality and ethics, no matter how radicalized it is, then we’ll become a (potential)target for ostracization. And either we can stay true to our beliefs and accept this fate, or we can forsake what principles we originally held and defended. It’s a personal choice that is difficult to make, and one on which a lot depends. It could lead to introspection and a new perspective, or it could lead to chickening out and into the arms of those you morally oppose.

What is one to judge themselves against, in this day and age? Who is the gold standard for an idol that is to be emulated? It most likely is someone that has achieved the pinnacle of whatever status you consider to be most important, be it hierarchical power in an organization, wealth, physical prowess, intellectual grandeur, kindness and amiability, positive conduct in interpersonal relationships, devotion to a cause, or something else entirely. If one is ambitious enough, then they’ll likely try to achieve a goal of such nature. Others exist that don’t care at all for these matters, their life is to them as meaningless as anything else, though those are far and few between.

Personally, I believe that the most influential person in history was Jesus Christ, and the most extraordinary person was Yuri Gagarin.
Christ, not because he was the son of god or anything like that, but because of his teachings and the institution(s) created in his name. These institutions have consciously shaped human history more than anything else so far, and while the original teachings of his have been corrupted time and time again, it has played a crucial part in bringing about a sense of ethics, morality and values for the largest religious group presently on the planet(and a major group in size and influence for much of it’s existence). My opinion here is summarized best by the paraphrased words of the Mahatma — I like Christ, but I don’t like the Christians.

Gagarin on the other hand is the most extraordinary person because he was the first one to leave this planet and to return back to it. Others, animals and even a person, had done so before, yet those did not live to see their birthplace again. No other form of life has ever left this planet before, so in this sense he was extraordinary not only as a human, but as a representative of earthly life itself.

So, what’s there to death then, what will happen once it comes to you? In short – no idea. I’d like to think that my consciousness does not require my body to exist, but I doubt it. Complete and absolute nothingness is something I’m incapable of imagining, however do I know that whatever my worries and fears about it are, they don’t matter due them ceasing to exist when one “enters” this nothingness.
Frankly, I’ve tried to find solace in atheism once the flaws in the religious teachings I was exposed to during my youth had become too much to overlook, but atheism hasn’t provided me with the answers for my questions. I just cannot imagine that “life”, an existence that is consciously aware of its own existence, while within a universe that isn’t aware of its own existence, can form on it’s own without the intervention of a higher power. Not that I’d try to delude myself into thinking that my human intellect could understand such a higher power(especially the one that inspired the Abrahamic faiths and the one that I’m most familiar with), but it’s something that I just cannot help thinking about every once in a while. If you, or anyone reading this, finds a sense of security or purpose in prayer and worship to such a higher power, then please do as you wish, for I hold no authority about telling you what to do. Death scares me in the same way that the sun rising in the morning scares me – I’d be shitting my pants if it didn’t happen.

Should one get bothered to define themselves by their actions? Is a person truly that significant, are multiple? Is this planet with all it’s life something special? One planet in one solar system, a hundred billion planets in this galaxy, and a hundred billion galaxies in the known universe(and that’s on the low end of estimates)?The universe is some 14 billion years old, the planet some 4.5 billion and life in its earliest form some 3.8 billion years. Humanity is what, not even a million years old?
I’ve once read that when one person dies, their perspective on the world and everything they considered to be anything dies with them, so in essence an entire world dies. Yet so many have died, and so many more will do, including all of us and everyone we know, so does it matter with that in mind?

But now, after my amateurish expedition into existentialism, we ought to get back to the common ideology necessary to craft a state and political system. When one doesn’t establish an order that spurns people into working for its cause, then we have the end result of a problematic situation, to put it lightly.

What order is there that would, realistically, be capable of motivating everyone living under it to work for its continued existence? Most people would probably say, after a few moments of deliberation, that this order should keep them safe. Primarily safe from crime and war, with other unsavory undertakings that humans get up to following suit.

The established authority in this order must then be able to provide its subjects with this safety, and if it cannot do so, then it will falter. The more hostile the circumstances are in which this order operates, the less likely it will be democratic and liberal in outlook.

When a nation secure in its position, and able to focus its resources on the creation of wealth and education, then its peoples will start to think and shape their worldview more liberally, it’s probably going to be democratic, its leadership focused on the economic well-being instead of security.

If you as a voter have come to the conclusion that your understanding of the larger world outside your immediate perception & experience is insufficient, yet you still want to take part in this world, then you likely will decide to vote. To vote for someone who has a better understanding due to them possessing a deeper, more varied knowledge about this world and the complex processes that operate within it.
A voter will decide for who to cast their vote by judging who seemingly has the best take on the larger picture based on the knowledge they hold about it.
However, the voter also needs to posses the necessary basic knowledge to gain at least a semi-comprehensible view of the issues that made you vote for your candidate. Because, and this is important, if you do not, then you have just delegated authority to someone that might have been a deliberate liar.

The “election” as a process builds on the foundation that a community of people requires a leader to guide it, and that this leader obtains the legitimacy of his authority not by conquest, but by consent. This consent is given by the community in a fair and transparent vote, in which only those most adept at leadership can win.

This is a system that works quite well in theory, but can be gamed very easily by various methods. It can be undermined by charismatic, confident demagogues that know how to prey upon the weaknesses and charm their desired voter bloc. Corruption of officials or voters, the targeted use of imagery and emotional messaging, intimidation and blackmail, and much more.

It also depends on how a culture views power. Who is truly worthy of it, can power realistically be given to those that “legitimized” their authority by consent? Or is power a tool only for the strong, for those bold enough to wield it and to subjugate others with it?
What forms these factors in cultural identities are usually outside influences. Those cultures plagued by centuries or millennia of foreign evils won’t see themselves be charmed by the notion of consensual authority, what they want is someone in command who can ensure their security. This ties in to my earlier points about democracy being a viable political system only for the wealthy, safe and educated nations.

I’ve decided to stop here before going into my beliefs about ethics and morality, which are even less orderly than this mess here…
Also wanted to expand on a few country examples, like democracy in Portugal between the revolution of 1910 and the rise of Salazar in 32, and the system in place in Northern Ireland from 1921 up to 68, but alas it didn’t happen.
Kudos to you if you made it through that wall of text, have a virtual slice of the cake I’ve yet to make for the weekend. I feel like it should be reiterated that I don’t hold any formal education and don’t have any real interest in political science (the only political science book I ever actually read was Wolin’s “Democracy Incorporated”, which was back then and still is quite the challenge to get through), these are just my thoughts on the topic, written down with enough pompous and pretentious vocabulary to mock it into oblivion.
Feedback of any kind is, as always, welcome & appreciated, especially if it’s critical.

I will get to these two next (i.e most expedient bookmarking process for me is just to quote them first like this).... and try my best to get to any new points I have to share when I have time later again.

I feel overall I've covered from my end the other posts you made in the last 3 pages or so....but anything specific you may feel hasn't been addressed adequately, please do bring to my attention.

 

[crixus]

I think you get it.

What should you and I do?

I know what you mean , if we try to just look by putting the emotion aside by this Kashmiri exodus may be Paksitan/ISI/Kashmiri seperatists groups might have scored a tactical victory but did a self goal on strategic level .

There are some reasons why Pakistan find it hard to have international audiences for their version of Kashmir story and eventually countries started snubbing them.

For me and you , enjoy the life , avoid green forum and learn something new

 

[Viva_vietnamm]

It is a concern for sure.... Vietnam is another country that will have to be prepared for shenanigans @Viva_vietnamm

I kind of worry that Xi will look at Russia's poor war performance, think about the fact that the Chinese military doesn't have much recent experience, and conclude that his military needs a "practice war".

Thats so true, everything, including war, need to be practiced to become better. If u don't practice in real war, then the only tactic u know is just "human wave attack " like CN did to VN in 1979 :lol

 

[Blackbeardsgoldfish]

Thats so true, everything, including war, need to be practiced to become better. If u don't practice in real war, then the only tactic u know is just "human wave attack " like CN did to VN in 1979 :lol

China knows that the world would be watching a war with Taiwan, watching it even more closely than what's currently happening in Ukraine. The CCP knows this and the propaganda value that can be derived from it.
If they perform according to plan and have the island under control as soon as possible, then the world would take the PLA as a serious force to be reckoned with, and the CCP would exploit this victory for all that it's worth, both at home and abroad.
Should they not perform according to plan and the whole thing turns out like Ukraine did to Russia... well, that would be another rallying cry for the west, a serious blow to the party's prestige and could probably even lead to a serious challenge to CCP rule surfacing.

That the next available opportunity for war could be used isn't that unlikely.

 

[Blackbeardsgoldfish]

IMO, it all becomes lot easier to understand when you factor in most people are tribal first (and they pick and choose whatever is easiest and most convenient for it....even while rejecting whatever other brazen or nuanced forms of it depending on their taste and experience).

My buddy @Deliorman put his take on prevalence at about 60%....and I think thats in the ballpark....and quite possibly lot higher.

But you factor that in first, it mimics the importance of understanding arithmetic and algebra to learn the larger math world.

I feel this is going to stay with us eternally as we are deep in our psyche tribal (the degrees for later life simply vary)....inherited by how we come into existence...dependent on others (i.e family) for security, nourishment, learning....everything.

This merely extends to whom that family was dependent on....our need/realisation grows to include such things as higher powers, larger tribes and so on.

Only a minority of people scale enough high mountains to expand their horizons (on such things) well past the norm (of level ground preference and comfort)....but even then there is limitation by curvature of Earth in most cases.



Democracy has always been given a spanking (since it first spawned, grew and now established in large degree as a reality) and it dishes it out back in various ways too. Like any large thing that exists.



Give me another decade, and I will give you other names....with the same issues heh.

Things appear closer and intense in the current time horizon....but they are always there. Further away they get as they recede, they get normalised (only the bright and dark bits offer some sinusoidal variance).

One Canadian band self-depricated their country as recurring landscape of "rocks and trees and trees and rocks and rocks and trees and trees and rocks....and ....water"... just like you see when you are out on a drive here.

But I feel thats true in a much larger sense for the human species too as it travels through time.

The real large "carrier" things (somewhat like a fourier series) are essentially dictated by underlying human psychological response/amnesia in the bulk of the population (i.e what those rocks and trees and watterrrr mean to us in that within horizon instance)

This amplitude (of perceived response and consequence) increases somewhat noticeably though, as the transmittance ability (communication) of the population grows evermore relevant.



Its a schrodinger situation. If you dont want to find stuff out, keep the (info) box closed firmly as you can.

But the damage of doing it this (totalitarian) way is long term thing.

There is real problematic detritus surfacing now inside the CCP (from the larger societal reality and response) of stuff they did 20 - 30 years back. This one will add to that.

I am still a staunch believer in the liberal democratic system....a lot more noise and effect is generated in the short term, but less accumulates in brittle way IMO.

Gonna be doing this one a bit later

 

[Joe Shearer]

I know what you mean , if we try to just look by putting the emotion aside by this Kashmiri exodus may be Paksitan/ISI/Kashmiri seperatists groups might have scored a tactical victory but did a self goal on strategic level .

There are some reasons why Pakistan find it hard to have international audiences for their version of Kashmir story and eventually countries started snubbing them.

For me and you , enjoy the life , avoid green forum and learn something new

Two out of three isn't bad.

 

[Blackbeardsgoldfish]

Yeah oldest verified....i.e has birth certificate recorded etc.

I remember during the 90s, the French lady (Calment) would come on the news every now and then as the oldest living person....till she passed away at 122?... She remains the oldest verified person thats existed I believe.

In developing world, lot of ages cannot be verified like it (till birth records became more universal)....we go on their word (and others words) essentially.

I remember someone in arab country somewhere said he is nearly 130 years old (this was again back in the 1990s and as kid I was absolutely amazed someone can live that long....while my dad tutted its likely an old coot claim)...my memory is very faint on it though.

If this is true... I wonder how it feels like to live this long, what thoughts do you develop over such a time frame and what your beliefs are

 

[Joe Shearer]

If this is true... I wonder how it feels like to live this long, what thoughts do you develop over such a time frame and what your beliefs are

I am 50 years short.

Would my perspective on how views change help?

 

[Nilgiri]

I know what you mean , if we try to just look by putting the emotion aside by this Kashmiri exodus may be Paksitan/ISI/Kashmiri seperatists groups might have scored a tactical victory but did a self goal on strategic level .

There are some reasons why Pakistan find it hard to have international audiences for their version of Kashmir story and eventually countries started snubbing them.

For me and you , enjoy the life , avoid green forum and learn something new

Similar story, down to the year (1990) almost

Expulsion of Muslims from the Northern Province of Sri Lanka - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

dont it always seem to go, that you dont know what you got till its gone.......

 

[Nilgiri]

Thats so true, everything, including war, need to be practiced to become better. If u don't practice in real war, then the only tactic u know is just "human wave attack " like CN did to VN in 1979 :lol

Yup CN trolls also have not practiced discussion so they just human wave troll attack on "Gen Giap" viva vietnam

Viva Vietnam just deals with them like VN sappers did lol.