TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Windchime]

When will it rollout then? Ten days before first flight? Are you saying the program is on schedule and there's no delay regarding the first prototype?

No rollout as per my knowledge. And yes, no delays.

There was a known delay of bit less than a year in 2020 due to foreign suppliers issue. Surprised to know that they've caught up with the pre-covid schedule.

 

[Rodeo]

There was a known delay of bit less than a year in 2020 due to foreign suppliers issue. Surprised to know that they've caught up with the pre-covid schedule.

I don't wanna jinx it or anything but the projects progress in lightning speed. Too fast even. The aviation sector of Turkey has the perfect execution, imo. They know our weaknesses and plan for them ahead. But regardless of the excellence so far, we're gonna hit a stone wall at some point and will muddle-through somehow. My hope is that we put one or two squadrons of TFX into service even if they're not 5th gen. We have to preserve our qualitative edge over the other actors in the region. It's not a matter of choice.

 

[GoatsMilk]

The more i think about it the best leverage we have against fighter jet embargoes from the USA is this project. The faster the project comes along the more counter productive it becomes for the USA not to sell us fighter jets. Would not surprise me if the announcement that the project has come forward a few years is also aimed to create leverage.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Mr Kotil: "Our number of employees will be 16,000 next year"

Dassault Aviation: 12,371 employees

 

[Windchime]

I don't wanna jinx it or anything but the projects progress in lightning speed. Too fast even. The aviation sector of Turkey has the perfect execution, imo. They know our weaknesses and plan for them ahead. But regardless of the excellence so far, we're gonna hit a stone wall at some point and muddle-through somehow. My hope is that we put one or two squadrons of TFX into service even if they're not 5th gen. We have to preserve our qualitative edge over the other actors in the region. It's not a matter of choice.

The spees indeed is incredibly fast, but it isn't something that cannot be understood if we see it from the point of extensive digital engineering and simulation. Obviously, like you've said there could be delays to come since, as I've mentioned before, unexpected annomalies could only be found once the system is actually integrated into one system of systems and takes to the skies. This is of no exception even with digital twin, at least as of now, and was demonstrated by the delays of the T-7. No one could garauntee that the same wouldn't happen with MMU, but in the same time also couldn't say that the same must happen.

Also in the context of the configuration in which the block-0 and 1 aircraft will be rolled out, flown and introduced, the information is still a bit lacking in my opinion, due which I'll reserve any skepticism. Devils are in the details and unless one knows the exact capabilities of the block-1, one shouldn't really judge.

Most importantly, the most important milestone would be the IOC. The Savunmasanayist article mentions that the IOC still lies on the first half of the 2030s. This is unchanged from the initial plans and indicates a lot of things.

 

[Xenon54]

"Canopy and Structural Composite parts for MMU successfully delivered."

Volo is responsible for the production of the canopy. This is an incredibly challenging task so well done to them.

View attachment 50979



Also a foreign engineering intern had stuff to say...

View attachment 50980

Speaking of canopy, there seems to be no radar absorbing coating on it yet which is not necessary for the first prototypes for sure but i guess we will see something similar to the one of F-22 in later stages.

 

[neosinan]

Speaking of canopy, there seems to be no radar absorbing coating on it yet which is not necessary for the first prototypes for sure but i guess we will see something similar to the one of F-22 in later stages.

View attachment 51212

According to Temel Kotil, yes there is radar absorbing feature of canopy, ımho it is totally different from coating of all the other Stealth jets.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1600812696953241605

 

[Baryshx]

 

[Rodeo]

For the non-Turkish audience, I transcripted Temel Kotil's ten minutes speech and Google-Translated to English. I did small changes that seemed off. Translation could be improved but you'll get the gist of it.

"They showed it in the 60's when I was touring(Lockheed Martin). They designed different fighter planes almost once a week during the cold war. But today I understand that the American air force has this much inventory. Germany has that much inventory. England has this much inventory. They're not in a rush like us. That's why they're going slow. They go in control. They set a bad example for us. Last night, we were talking with a large foreign company. They have a project. He said this time this will end, that time this will end. I said, if so, we'll catch up with you. It's not a joke. Yes. Let's not take the developed world companies as an example. Their situation today is different. Their countries' defense situations, status and needs are different. Thank God for the pace we caught with the TFX. With everyone's effort. I thank everyone. To all foundation companies. We are a foundation company. It's the same with others and with Havelsan also. thank you all. to all those who helped us. but the truth of the matter is this. I've started to understand this especially lately. Let's not take advanced defense companies as an example. Let's take as an example their pace in the 60s and 70s during the Cold War.

Of course, we talk to our guests about what is done, sometimes with such technology companies as well as with very big companies that we work with, bigger than us. We show them. they are surprised. so how did you do it? We say it's very normal. we do. yes, at the moment the plane's landing gear is about to be fitted. Landing gear arrived yesterday. Being integrated. By the 20th of the month, the landing gear will have been installed. and the engine will be installed. By March 18, avionics will be installed, cockpit finished, canopy installed, landing gear, actuators, fuel tanks, everything will be on it. I will repeat it. counting the days. Of course, what we're showing right now is the tip of the iceberg. more technician-based work is currently in progress. because since the design is finished, it comes down to the technicians. They work 24/7. It's not a joke, but it's the truth. The shifts have begun to mix. When the plane starts to take shape, our employees say, let's take a photo. We take photos under control to show it to our grandchildren. We drilled over 170.000 holes on it by hand. Since it is a prototype, we have 4-5 years to adjust the robotic systems since it is the first. We will make the first planes by hand. I saw that the technician has a big drill in his hand. It's like a long, thin, about 5mm. The labor of technicians is the tip of the iceberg. underneath that is the concept design of this, the geometric design of this, the design of the systems, the canopy, the landing gear, the structural design, awfully long engineering hours. Our 1300 engineers, our own personnel of the TUSAS, are working 24/7. and sibling organizations from outside, stm, havelsan, aselsan, roketsan, sage, tübitak bilgem, tübitak. private companies. If I continue with the names it will get longer. they work for us. In order for such a plane to be national, it has to be built in Turkey from A to Z. It is necessary not to get permission from anyone for manufacturing and making the desired number. then it becomes national. otherwise we made F16 under license. but the more the Americans give, the more we make. Or we make the T70 helicopter under license. Now it has to be local to be national.

The canopy is native. A Turkish company is making it, Volo. Building a canopy is very difficult for warplanes. You have to do very well optically. When the pilot turns his head, there should be no refraction. bird strike experiments. we do it ourselves. it has to be strong. If a foreign object hits it, it should not break. It has to be light. It should not reflect electromagnetic waves. I remember back in 2016, the canopy of the Hürkuş had a gasket problem. It was from a European country. It was from Switzerland. they didn't give it to us. I remember how tiresome that was. Turkish company is making the canopy. Volo. The landing gear is made by a Turkish company. very important. The landing gear of an airplane is a very difficult subject. because it's a huge mass. eight tons, it will punch the ground. otherwise it would slide off the runway. it is made by a company called TAAC that we are a partner in. Actuators, warplanes are unstable planes. Therefore, it must constantly maneuver precisely. Its control surfaces are not like normal subsonic planes. This is very fine technology. We are talking about processing with a submicron-accuracy. Because in those actuators, in the systems that move it, air is used instead of oil. a Turkish company does this. TAAC does. Hopefully we will make the engine locally. we started. but for now the first engine start will take place with the engine of the F16. Our first aircrafts will have F16 engines. BİLGEM makes the flight computer. There are a lot of sensors on the plane. Because 5th generation fighter jet means, it listens to all sides like a globe. It receives every incoming signal. and evaluating. as well as electronic warfare in counter-intervention.
Aselsan is tasked with this. If I continue, this plane is 100 percent national. When the Turkish engine arrives in 2028, its engine will also be domestic.

It(the plane) emerged rapidly, by the grace of God. It was such a surprise to everyone. it came out very quickly. But of course, success comes from the heart. comes from devotion. I'll end it with this. What I learned in this program. We set ourselves bad examples. I won't go into the company name. It's worldwide. Because they are in the stock market, I can't give the name. They say that this company of the developed country made this plane in this many years. they take very long time. if we go back to the 1960s, that is Lockheed Martin, they showed it when I toured. they designed a different fighter plane almost once a week. during the cold war. but today I understand. The American air force has this much inventory. Germany has that much inventory. England has this much inventory. They are in no rush like us. That's why they go slow. They go in control. They set a bad example for us. No. We should set our own style."

 

[Gary]

The American air force has this much inventory. Germany has this much inventory. England has this much inventory. They are in no rush like us. That's why they go slow. They go in control. They set a bad example for us. No. We should set our own style."

Former Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, Will Roper. Which btw is behind the E-Series fighter jets design laments the slow pace of new aircraft development in the USAF. Now he tries to break the shackles.

Roper Calls For New Air Force Planes Every Five Years; Recalls X Plane Days - Breaking Defense

PARIS AIR SHOW: During an unusual public appearance in the US Chalet, Will Roper called for a large expansion in the number of companies doing business with the Air Force so more new planes can be built — and be built much more quickly as was done in the 1950s and ’60s when a new…

breakingdefense.com

From the look of it, we'll be back in the 60s where new aircrafts came every 5-10 years max. The fast pace in which the B-21 is developed and the already flying but still secret NGAD is testament to this. Temel Kotil is right to fast tracked the development on new planes.

 

[Rodeo]

I drew a quick sketch on Inkscape to compare the height of various 5th gen platforms. The lines are to scale.

TFX seems to be the tallest by a wide margin. I wonder if our plane will have built-in ladder like the one in F35.

Edit: I forgot about AMCA. The Indian aircraft is 4.5m tall. It's between J20 and SU57.

 

[Anastasius]

Former Assistant Secretary of the Air Force for Acquisition, Will Roper. Which btw is behind the E-Series fighter jets design laments the slow pace of new aircraft development in the USAF. Now he tries to break the shackles.

Roper Calls For New Air Force Planes Every Five Years; Recalls X Plane Days - Breaking Defense

PARIS AIR SHOW: During an unusual public appearance in the US Chalet, Will Roper called for a large expansion in the number of companies doing business with the Air Force so more new planes can be built — and be built much more quickly as was done in the 1950s and ’60s when a new…

breakingdefense.com

From the look of it, we'll be back in the 60s where new aircrafts came every 5-10 years max. The fast pace in which the B-21 is developed and the already flying but still secret NGAD is testament to this. Temel Kotil is right to fast tracked the development on new planes.

People misunderstand the slow pace of work, its value is two-fold - 1) it allows for a more thorough investigation and analysis of what works and what doesn't thus meaning that when a plane hits the field, generally almost every approach has been tried and 2) it avoids burning out your workers and keeps them operating at high efficiency and avoids corner-cutting measures. You can talk about "new plane designs every 5 years" but you also have to talk about how most of those designs were hot garbage that got thrown out very quickly. There was a real fear back then that if you weren't putting in 220% then your opposition's capabilities would far outstrip yours - and this was the peak of the Cold War.

 

[Gary]

People misunderstand the slow pace of work, its value is two-fold - 1) it allows for a more thorough investigation and analysis of what works and what doesn't thus meaning that when a plane hits the field, generally almost every approach has been tried and 2) it avoids burning out your workers and keeps them operating at high efficiency and avoids corner-cutting measures. You can talk about "new plane designs every 5 years" but you also have to talk about how most of those designs were hot garbage that got thrown out very quickly.

The digital series fighter are designed to avoid these "cutting corners" while deliver rapid introduction of technology on American fighters with an emphasis on the economic sustainment. Or that is what Will Roper envision

“I'm very focused on trying to build airplanes where we do more iterative designs, more frequently in smaller batches,” he said.

Radically changing the way the Air Force develops platforms using digital engineering will allow the service to retire older, expensive to maintain aircraft, he said. Currently, lawmakers are reluctant to allow the service to retire certain aircraft because there is nothing in the works to replace them. Rapid development of smaller batches that are quickly replaced with updated versions means that “geriatric” aircraft won’t be sitting on tarmacs for 30 years, he said.

Currently, the Air Force does a 30-year aircraft mass production purchase and then modernizes and sustains them until retirement. Digital engineering allows the Air Force to “flip” the paradigm, he said. “You can do smaller lots. You give up your economic order quantities, but you can spiral more frequently, but because you're not doing large procurement lots, you can afford those spirals and you can also afford to not keep the airplane for 30 years. “

So far the results have been amazing. It's been fun on NGAD watching the digital engineering tools allow us to lower risk and change designs in a way that would typically require physical world iterations. It just feels like you've got a fast forward button for acquisition. It's magical,” he said.

Air Forces Roper Wants to Fast Forward Digital Engineering Revolution

Air Forces Roper Wants to Fast Forward Digital Engineering Revolution

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org

 

[Agha Sher]

I drew a quick sketch on Inkscape to compare the height of various 5th gen platforms. The lines are to scale.

TFX seems to be the tallest by a wide margin. I wonder if our plane will have built-in ladder like the one in F35.

Edit: I forgot about AMCA. The Indian aircraft is 4.5m tall. It's between J20 and SU57.

My question is, why is TF-X so much bigger in all aspects than its peers. Is it due to Turkiye's inexpiernce in designing and building aircraft of this caliber as well as lack of minaturization of certain hardware?

 

[Radonsider]

My question is, why is TF-X so much bigger in all aspects than its peers. Is it due to Turkiye's inexpiernce in designing and building aircraft of this caliber as well as lack of minaturization of certain hardware?

None, simply needing a mix of F-35 and F-22, results in a bigger airframe

 

[Era_shield]

Whatever help the UK was going to give us has been given. Only a fool would expect them to now help us develop a competitor to their own aircraft:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601064213606457344

 

[Rodeo]

My question is, why is TF-X so much bigger in all aspects than its peers. Is it due to Turkiye's inexpiernce in designing and building aircraft of this caliber as well as lack of minaturization of certain hardware?

I'd say because of the requirements. TUAF wants high range(bigger fuel tanks), big weapons in IWB, very powerful sensors and twin engines. And when you add the possible inclusions of 6th gen technologies like laser weapons in the future, you don't have much option other than to go big. Mind you, we say TFX is a fifth gen aircraft but it will have the ability to be upgraded to 6th gen, imo. And that is because of its size and raw power enabling the utilization of more power hungry electronics and weapons.

 

[Afif]

Whatever help the UK was going to give us has been given. Only a fool would expect them to now help us develop a competitor to their own aircraft:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601064213606457344

In my opinion, TFX is unlikely to be TEMPSETs competitor. two different generation.

 

[Agha Sher]

In my opinion, TFX is unlikely to be TEMPSETs competitor. two different generation.

The upgraded blocks of TF-X will most likely be on par with Tempest when it is operational around 2040

 

[Radonsider]

The upgraded blocks of TF-X will most likely be on par with Tempest when it is operational around 2040

Some stats, for sure, some of them won't.

They are designed for different countries with different needs, no need to compare them.


BUT if Tempest goes with Japanese DMU's, it will look like TF-X