TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Afif]

The upgraded blocks of TF-X will most likely be on par with Tempest when it is operational around 2040

TFX will likely to achieve 5.5 gen designation around 2040.

 

[Rodeo]

Maybe someone should give us a clear definition on what constitutes a 6th gen fighter. What makes the aircraft 6th gen but not 5th? The line between 4th gen and 5th gen is clear but not with 6th gen and 5gen. To me, it's a sales pitch.

Anyone wants to take the bullet and give us his opinion on the subject?

 

[Baklava Consumer]

Maybe someone should give us a clear definition on what constitutes a 6th gen fighter. What makes the aircraft 6th gen but not 5th? The line between 4th gen and 5th gen is clear but not with 6th gen and 5gen. To me, it's a sales pitch.

Anyone wants to take the bullet and give us his opinion on the subject?

• 4th Generation: High levels of agility, some degree of sensor fusion, pulse-doppler radar, reduced radar signature, fly-by-wire, look down/shoot down missiles.
• 5th Generation: Stealth, a high degree of maneuverability, advanced avionics systems, multi-role capabilities, network or data fusion capabilities.
• 6th Generation: Manned or unmanned configuration, able to integrate/form a network with other jets, drones, soldiers, sensors. Directed energy weapons (laser CIWS), Virtual Cockpit (pilot helmet 360° vision), AI (for example autonomous landing), and finally the new generation of variable cycle engines (designed to operate efficiently under different flight conditions, such as subsonic, transonic and supersonic)

 

[Heartbang]

Maybe someone should give us a clear definition on what constitutes a 6th gen fighter. What makes the aircraft 6th gen but not 5th? The line between 4th gen and 5th gen is clear but not with 6th gen and 5gen. To me, it's a sales pitch.

Anyone wants to take the bullet and give us his opinion on the subject?

This is the preliminary must-do list for a fighter to be 6th gen, as listed on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth-generation_fighter .

Typical design characteristics anticipated to deliver these roles include:

• Advanced digital capabilities including high-capacity networking, AI, data fusion, cyber warfare, D2D and battlefield command, control and communications (C3) capabilities.
• Optionally manned, with the same airframe capable of conducting piloted, remote controlled or onboard-AI controlled missions.
• Enhanced human-systems integration, with virtual cockpits presented via helmet-mounted displays which allow the pilot 360-degree vision with AI-enhanced battlefield awareness, and replacing conventional instrument panels.
• Advanced stealth airframes and avionics.
• Advanced variable-cycle engines able to cruise economically but still deliver high thrust when required.
• Increased-range stand-off and BVR weapons.
• Potential use of directed-energy weapons such as a laser CIWS.

With an indigenous engine with beefed up power-generation characteristics, TFX can deliver on the vast majority of these as-is.

 

[Rodeo]

• Advanced digital capabilities including high-capacity networking, AI, data fusion, cyber warfare, D2D and battlefield command, control and communications (C3) capabilities.
• Optionally manned, with the same airframe capable of conducting piloted, remote controlled or onboard-AI controlled missions.
• Enhanced human-systems integration, with virtual cockpits presented via helmet-mounted displays which allow the pilot 360-degree vision with AI-enhanced battlefield awareness, and replacing conventional instrument panels.
• Advanced stealth airframes and avionics.
• Advanced variable-cycle engines able to cruise economically but still deliver high thrust when required.
• Increased-range stand-off and BVR weapons.
• Potential use of directed-energy weapons such as a laser CIWS.

Let's go with bullet by bullet. Will these features be standard on TFX or will it have the ability to upgrade or none at all?

• Advanced digital capabilities including high-capacity networking, AI, data fusion, cyber warfare, D2D and battlefield command, control and communications (C3) capabilities.

- Already have.

• Optionally manned, with the same airframe capable of conducting piloted, remote controlled or onboard-AI controlled missions.

- Considering the aircraft will feature Fly-by-Wire and the extensive experience of TAI in drone business, this will be easy to implement.

• Enhanced human-systems integration, with virtual cockpits presented via helmet-mounted displays which allow the pilot 360-degree vision with AI-enhanced battlefield awareness, and replacing conventional instrument panels.

- Already have. Aselsan HMD and FSS 360⁰ Situation awareness + UV solar blind MWS

• Advanced variable-cycle engines able to cruise economically but still deliver high thrust when required.

- No. Only GE has it(XA100). But I fail to see why it's relevant other than range extension.

• Increased-range stand-off and BVR weapons.

- Already have.

• Potential use of directed-energy weapons such as a laser CIWS.

- Can have. The aircraft will have more than 70.000 lbf raw power and it's the biggest 5th gen fighter. It can be integrated to TFX later on.


What is the verdict? Will TFX be a 5th gen or 6th gen? You think it's 5th gen because it won't have adaptive-cycle engine?

I give very little importance to these designation signatures. After 5th generation aircrafts, the definitions are becoming hazy and manifest themselves more of a marketing scheme, imho.

 

[Afif]

Well, the US sixth gen fighter is believed to be something like this.

Unlike f22 and f35 or any other 5th gen fighter, it supposed to have effective LO against all band RF.

 

[Motiv888]

If I was looking into this, I would be looking at a 6th Gen being at least as good as today's 5th gens in most aspects.

• LO cross section from all angles, superior to the current 5th Gen aircraft out.
• IR signature to be better than any of today's current 4.5 or 5th gen aircraft
• Direct energy weapon capability, significantly better than what could be produced today on a jet.
• AR/VR helmets with 360 degree viewing
• Sensors better than the f35, while still allowing direct energy weaponry to be used
• light & Advanced variable-cycle engines - non after-burner supersonic cruising as needed.
• Optionally manned from takeoff to landing under AI
• Design up integration of "loyal wingmen"
• Electronic battlefield integration throughout all systems
• Remote controlled
• Advanced AESA systems, superior to current 4.5/5th jets, utilising the increased electrical performance of the engine.

 

[dBSPL]

None, simply needing a mix of F-35 and F-22, results in a bigger airframe

Recent statements show that rather than a solution between the F-35 and the F-22, the aim is to create a jet that combines the advantages of these two platforms and has a higher capability than the F-22. How ambitious this approach is and how realistic it is is a matter of debate, but when Temel Kotil said something similar about two years ago, many people did not take this statement seriously. However, the project is going so well that the first flight date has been brought forward for the second time.

 

[Radonsider]

Recent statements show that rather than a solution between the F-35 and the F-22, the aim is to create a jet that combines the advantages of these two platforms and has a higher capability than the F-22. How ambitious this approach is and how realistic it is is a matter of debate, but when Temel Kotil said something similar about two years ago, many people did not take this statement seriously. However, the project is going so well that the first flight date has been brought forward for the second time.

Exactly, I just couldn't emphasize it this way

 

[Era_shield]

In my opinion, TFX is unlikely to be TEMPSETs competitor. two different generation.

This is a meaningless distinction. They will compete for sales (if the Tempest is ever built, that is) and may even fight each other on the battlefield.

 

[Afif]

This is a meaningless distinction. They will compete for sales (if the Tempest is ever built, that is) and may even fight each other on the battlefield.

Unlikely, customers will be different.
uk italy won't sell it to some that Turkey wouldn't mind to sell and vice versa.

 

[Era_shield]

Unlikely, customers will be different.
uk italy won't sell it to some that Turkey wouldn't mind to sell and vice versa.

There's no such agreement. Even though historically our customers have been different, Turkiye is now entering the world class league of military technology and our future customers will include more developed countries which the UK may also compete for. And think of how long Tempest development will take, and how few options there are in the world for 5th/6th gen fighters. For sure the UK is considering all this and won't give any further help which may make the TF-X more attractive to customers.

 

[Afif]

There's no such agreement. Even though historically our customers have been different, Turkiye is now entering the world class league of military technology and our future customers will include more developed countries which the UK may also compete for. And think of how long Tempest development will take, and how few options there are in the world for 5th/6th gen fighters. For sure the UK is considering all this and won't give any further help which may make the TF-X more attractive to customers.

i meant for geopolitical reasons.
anyway, lets agree to disagree, i dont think it is very realistic to consider tempset and TFX as near peer competitor.

 

[-Sinan-]

I think, Its purpose for verification of RC value of final product. Seems to me, it's not used at design stage. Probably its RC value already calculated at computer based programs and also little scale model. If I don't remember wrongly a member of here already make some calculation about TB2 , KE and other planes.

I thought about the same thing.

And let me say they are working on Computational Electromagnetic programs. I worked in the project phase of that building. They wanted us to design a system that would hold the chamber at a certain temperature. So, we designed a system and another company run it on CFD, to see if it the system could hold the the chamber surfaces at the wanted temperature uniformly. After that they run it on electromagnetic programs, and decided on openings.

So, my guess is they already calculated aircarft's RC on program. But still finishing CDR without testing the plane on chamber sounds weirds to me. Maybe they are going to speed up the building process as well but i don't know.

 

[Rodeo]

I thought about the same thing.

And let me say they are working on Computational Electromagnetic programs. I worked in the project phase of that building. They wanted us to design a system that would hold the chamber at a certain temperature. So, we designed a system and another company run it on CFD, to see if it the system could hold the the chamber surfaces at the wanted temperature uniformly. After that they run it on electromagnetic programs, and decided on openings.

So, my guess is they already calculated aircarft's RC on program. But still finishing CDR without testing the plane on chamber sounds weirds to me. Maybe they are going to speed up the building process as well but i don't know.

If you don't mind me asking, did you use simple controllers like a PID for preserving the temperature or you'd have to use more sophisticated optimal control techniques or something?

 

[-Sinan-]

If you don't mind me asking, did you use simple controllers like a PID for preserving the temperature or you'd have to use more sophisticated optimal control techniques or something?

I don't know about automation stuff that much. There is a temperature sensor on the return air duct of the air handling unit. So, AHU can calibrate itself on the supply air's temperature.

 

[Xenon54]

I drew a quick sketch on Inkscape to compare the height of various 5th gen platforms. The lines are to scale.

TFX seems to be the tallest by a wide margin. I wonder if our plane will have built-in ladder like the one in F35.

Edit: I forgot about AMCA. The Indian aircraft is 4.5m tall. It's between J20 and SU57.

At this hight maybe an elevator?

 

[Baryshx]

There's no such agreement. Even though historically our customers have been different, Turkiye is now entering the world class league of military technology and our future customers will include more developed countries which the UK may also compete for. And think of how long Tempest development will take, and how few options there are in the world for 5th/6th gen fighters. For sure the UK is considering all this and won't give any further help which may make the TF-X more attractive to customers.

3-4 countries will take the Tempest. Anyway, it will be at least 2 times the price of TF-X.

 

[Xenon54]

Whatever help the UK was going to give us has been given. Only a fool would expect them to now help us develop a competitor to their own aircraft:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1601064213606457344

TBH i think Turkey is also alone capable to design the fighter thats not my concern, the only concern is the engine and critical sub system that might be subject to sanctions.

 

[Heartbang]

At this hight maybe an elevator?

Maybe a stairway to heaven to those who are foolish enough to take on the TFX 1 on 1?