TR Foreign Policy & Geopolitics

[GoatsMilk]

What should have happened over this burning incident was the Turkish governments comes out and says something like this. "We respect sweden and its people, we have a turkish community who lives in sweden and they love the country. Our friendly relations go back hundreds of years. (bring something historical up like the Swedish Ottoman alliance of the past and the king being a guest in our lands) We would be happy and want to invite Sweden into NATO our concern is the governments support for the PKK. (Give off info as to what they are the terror they have caused) We hope we can settle this issue quickly and sweden can join us in this alliance.

By attaching it to Islam he's destroyed Turkiye's argument and further deligitimised Turkish membership in the organisation over a nation who was happy to hide from responsibility until the threat directly appeared at their doorstep.

Such dumb politics again just so they can remain in power indefinitely, the nation is sinking. If we continue with this sort of politics Turkiye will be completely ruined within 50 years. Game over.

 

[GoatsMilk]

There should be a new rule that doesn't allow 20 years of leading... I see the guys face for WAY too long. Can't stand it no more.

then people like AK party will come along and try to undermine it just like they have undermined the constitution and the Turkish military. These guys want to a create monarchy.

 

[Tonyukuk]

Let's not forget that elections are very soon. Gaining voters is more important than good foreign policy.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Let's not forget that elections are very soon. Gaining voters is more important than good foreign policy.

Its interesting though these sorts of events always seem to take place to help erdogans election campaigns.

 

[tracer]

We're reading too much into the Quran-burning incident. We have to understand the Swedish mindset and constitution before start bashing on them. Sweden and Swedes don't care about any religion or flags or any thing you might hold sacred at all. You could, forgive my example, defecate on Swedish flag and burn it in front of Swedish parliament under police protection. If you own the flag, that is it's your possession, you could do whatever you want to do with it. It's a piece of cloth for them. And you can burn it, it's your civil right. Government can't do anything about it. This is the same for religious book. If you own the book you can do whatever you like with it. It's just a piece of paper to them. The civil liberties in Sweden goes even further. You can, for instance, fly an ISIS flag in Sweden. The judges ruled that it's a legal act.

Without knowing these monumental differences of Swedish society and constitution, the events we've witnessed in the past weeks seem incredibly dumb for the Sweden's side. Why would they allow such stupid protests(only a dimwit would burn a holy-book to make a point) and provoke the country that has the final say of your NATO accession? Because they have no choice. Once the police give the go, it's going to happen. If the police didn't give the permission, he could take it to the court and still win. The state has absolutely no say in it. That is at least theoretically.

Unfortunately, this kind of unlimited-freedom makes Sweden the perfect incubator for terrorist organizations to thrive and proliferate. They will pay the price for it eventually and deal with those terrorists themselves. However, I think, it's a grave mistake to say "we're denying Sweden's application because of burning of our holy book". NATO is a defense pact. Members don't have to hold the same values as other members. Those are irrelevant for the alliance. We have perfectly legitimate reasons for keeping Sweden out of NATO. Their support for YPG and their embargoes against us are to name a few. Therefore, we shouldn't delude our valid points to "the Quran burning" and make us weaker in the international area. Because the latter is not gonna fly with any other country.

Flag desecration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://www.thelocal.se/20161016/islamic-state-flag-is-legal-in-sweden-prosecutor-rules/

This is pretty much spot on. When it comes to religious faith, sweden is extremely secular to the point where religion does not play a significant role in the political debate. Sweden has also, historically, relied on a very liberal framework for freedom of expression. To this point, religions hold no special place or benefit from any special protections. Laws on hate speech are generally targeted towards ethnic groups rather than religious groups with the reasoning that it should focus on things that you can't affect as an individual. IE you can't change your physical features, but you choose to adhere to a religion.
In Swedish law all religions are treated equally in the sense that none are protected and none are discriminated against. It's fine to burn a bible or any other text that is perceived to be holy, burn the Swedish flag and so on. This has worked for quite a long time, because there was a strong sense of propriety, even though there are things that aren't technically illegal doesn't mean that they are appropriate.

The police has absolutely no say in this either, they can only deny a demonstration if there is a significant risk of violence to innocents, and only as the very last resort. As far as i know there is only a couple of instances during the last decade where this was the case. To be sure, the police has no interest at all in protecting scum like Paludan (who really is the very epitome of fuckwit), but he has the same right to express himself as anyone else under the law. Anyone is free to sue him though.

During the last decade or so, there has been a growing undercurrent of right wing activism that use the "not technically illegal" clause to do all kinds of crazy shit. The guy in question has been burning Qurans in both Sweden and Denmark before. His political party got 156 votes in the last election. The guy was sponsored him to do this by Chang Frick who is a well known guy in extreme right wing and anti-muslim circles and is coincidentially also strong opponent of NATO in general, go figure.

 

[tracer]

What should have happened over this burning incident was the Turkish governments comes out and says something like this. "We respect sweden and its people, we have a turkish community who lives in sweden and they love the country. Our friendly relations go back hundreds of years. (bring something historical up like the Swedish Ottoman alliance of the past and the king being a guest in our lands) We would be happy and want to invite Sweden into NATO our concern is the governments support for the PKK. (Give off info as to what they are the terror they have caused) We hope we can settle this issue quickly and sweden can join us in this alliance.

By attaching it to Islam he's destroyed Turkiye's argument and further deligitimised Turkish membership in the organisation over a nation who was happy to hide from responsibility until the threat directly appeared at their doorstep.

Such dumb politics again just so they can remain in power indefinitely, the nation is sinking. If we continue with this sort of politics Turkiye will be completely ruined within 50 years. Game over.

And thats perfectly reasonable, PKK is classed as a terrorist organisation in Sweden, as with the rest of the EU, thats never been an issue. The issue has been with the two socialist parties, the Social Democrats and the Left party that had ties to mostly YPG, which by EU standards is not classed as a terrorist organisation. Personally, I'm not read up on the history of that more than casual knowledge.
Reaching back to the freedom of expression, its easy to see how you could spin flags and demonstrations as terrorist activity, it's really not.
If there are people that have committed a terrorist act, as defined by international law, thats a completely different thing and they would be prosecuted either in Sweden or handed out to the relevant nation.


This is the fundamental law of freedom of expression in sweden, as you can see it focuses very stongly on the rights of expression. In the case with Paludan you can use Art 5 to argue that he expresses his opinion about muslims, the manner of presentation is burning the Quran.

https://www.riksdagen.se/globalassets/07.-dokument--lagar/the-fundamental-law-on-freedom-of-expression-2015.pdf

"
Art. 1. Every Swedish citizen is guaranteed the right under this Fundamental Law, vis-à-vis the public institutions, publicly to express his or her thoughts, opinions and sentiments, and in general to communicate information on any subject whatsoever on sound radio, television and certain similar transmissions, through public playback of material from a database, and in films, video recordings, sound recordings and other technical recordings.
The purpose of freedom of expression under this Fundamental Law is to secure the free exchange of opinion, free and comprehensive information, and freedom of artistic creation. No restriction of this freedom shall be permitted other than such as follows from this Fundamental Law."


"
Art. 5. Any person entrusted with passing judgment on abuses of the freedom of expression or otherwise overseeing compliance with this Fundamental Law should bear in mind that the Freedom
of Expression is fundamental to a free society. He or she should direct his or her attention always to the aim rather than the manner of presentation. In case of doubt, he or she should acquit rather than convict."

 

[TheInsider]

Quran burning incident is the last straw that broke the camel's back. The real problem is Swedish support for terrorism. There are PKK-run bank accounts, PKK recruitment centers, and armed PKK terrorist residing in Sweden, Sweden became a safe haven for Gulenist who fired on Turkish people on the night of the coup. None of these is acceptable and Sweden does nothing about them. They are just trying to present good PR, pretending like they are doing something. Turkish authorities should hold a referendum for Sweden and Finland. Erdogan is shouldering unnecessary weight. After the referendum, both Sweden, Finland, and other NATO countries will understand the situation better when the Turkish nation votes nay with an overwhelming majority ( i expect something like %90+ and i will call %80+ a big success for Sweden and Finland). Let them face the Turkish nation, Turkish politicians should step aside and let the nation handle this.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

Quran burning incident is the last straw that broke the camel's back. The real problem is Swedish support for terrorism. There are PKK-run bank accounts, PKK recruitment centers, and armed PKK terrorist residing in Sweden, Sweden became a safe haven for Gulenist who fire on Turkish people on the night of the coup. None of these is acceptable and Sweden does nothing about them. They are just trying to present good PR, pretending like they are doing something. Turkish authorities should hold a referendum for Sweden and Finland. Erdogan is shouldering unnecessary weight. After the referendum, both Sweden, Finland, and other NATO countries will understand the situation better when the Turkish nation votes nay with an overwhelming majority ( i expect something like %90+).

The swedes should know that one day, those terrorists will start aiming their weapons towards swedish people. What the PKK/YPG supporters in Paris did was just an appetizer.

They shouldn't wonder when other countries do what sweden did then.

 

[GoatsMilk]

And thats perfectly reasonable, PKK is classed as a terrorist organisation in Sweden, as with the rest of the EU, thats never been an issue. The issue has been with the two socialist parties, the Social Democrats and the Left party that had ties to mostly YPG, which by EU standards is not classed as a terrorist organisation. Personally, I'm not read up on the history of that more than casual knowledge.
Reaching back to the freedom of expression, its easy to see how you could spin flags and demonstrations as terrorist activity, it's really not.
If there are people that have committed a terrorist act, as defined by international law, thats a completely different thing and they would be prosecuted either in Sweden or handed out to the relevant nation.


This is the fundamental law of freedom of expression in sweden, as you can see it focuses very stongly on the rights of expression. In the case with Paludan you can use Art 5 to argue that he expresses his opinion about muslims, the manner of presentation is burning the Quran.

https://www.riksdagen.se/globalassets/07.-dokument--lagar/the-fundamental-law-on-freedom-of-expression-2015.pdf

"
Art. 1. Every Swedish citizen is guaranteed the right under this Fundamental Law, vis-à-vis the public institutions, publicly to express his or her thoughts, opinions and sentiments, and in general to communicate information on any subject whatsoever on sound radio, television and certain similar transmissions, through public playback of material from a database, and in films, video recordings, sound recordings and other technical recordings.
The purpose of freedom of expression under this Fundamental Law is to secure the free exchange of opinion, free and comprehensive information, and freedom of artistic creation. No restriction of this freedom shall be permitted other than such as follows from this Fundamental Law."


"
Art. 5. Any person entrusted with passing judgment on abuses of the freedom of expression or otherwise overseeing compliance with this Fundamental Law should bear in mind that the Freedom
of Expression is fundamental to a free society. He or she should direct his or her attention always to the aim rather than the manner of presentation. In case of doubt, he or she should acquit rather than convict."

rationally its not something that the government of Turkiye should have even got involved in. We have Turkic Uyghurs rounded up daily and shoved in chinese concentration camps and our government and media don't want to talk about it. A dude burning a book in his own country whether legal or illegal is really of f'all concern to Turkiye. But if they had to open their mouths they should have utilised it to get the Turkish opinion across concerning the PKK. Instead we done the dumbest thing possible, we turned the NATO membership issue into something to do with Islam. In a time when Muslims need to be doing everything to deescalate religion.

Not so long ago the president of the USA (world super power) went on record saying "a complete and total shutdown of all Muslims". If Muslim keep playing these games the talks are going to soon be about "does the west have a muslim problem and what should we do about it"

Honestly it feels me that Muslims are racing head first off a cliff edge, but because the edge is years away they cannot see the edge.

This might be uncomfortable for Muslims to hear but the west has no interest in Islam, stop shoving it in their faces its counter productive. Turkiye will not achieve anything in the west if she continues down this path.

Turkish politics when dealing on the international stage must remain entirely secular unless you are in a country that loves to hear about islam like Pakistan. Otherwise don't do it, it only harms the geopolitical interests of Turkiye.

 

[tracer]

rationally its not something that the government of Turkiye should have even got involved in. We have Turkic Uyghurs rounded up daily and shoved in chinese concentration camps and our government and media don't want to talk about it. A dude burning a book in his own country whether legal or illegal is really of f'all concern to Turkiye. But if they had to open their mouths they should have utilised it to get the Turkish opinion across concerning the PKK. Instead we done the dumbest thing possible, we turned the NATO membership issue into something to do with Islam. In a time when Muslims need to be doing everything to deescalate religion.

Not so long ago the president of the USA (world super power) went on record saying "a complete and total shutdown of all Muslims". If Muslim keep playing these games the talks are going to soon be about "does the west have a muslim problem and what should we do about it"

Honestly it feels me that Muslims are racing head first off a cliff edge, but because the edge is years away they cannot see the edge.

This might be uncomfortable for Muslims to hear but the west has no interest in Islam, stop shoving it in their faces its counter productive. Turkiye will not achieve anything in the west if she continues down this path.

Turkish politics when dealing on the international stage must remain entirely secular unless you are in a country that loves to hear about islam like Pakistan. Otherwise don't do it, it only harms the geopolitical interests of Turkiye.

Without speaking for Turkiye and as a non-muslim, that seems sensible to me, really.
From a western standpoint, i don't think there is an inherent dislike of islam, like you say. The issue as i've perceived it is rather that many people get uncomfortable when you mix religion and politics. W was a perfect example of this as well, as a lot of what he said re Christianity was cringe-worthy, at least in Sweden. Believe what you want, as long as you dont try to shove that down the throat of your neighbour, or hit him, you're fine.

 

[Anastasius]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1617898181752393729

At Turkey's request, the tripartite mechanism meetings with Sweden and Finland for NATO accession were canceled indefinitely.

LOL, I knew this was gonna happen. Erdogan is not a stupid man but he is poison for Turkey. He needs to leave.

 

[Heartbang]

The PJKK/YPG issue is getting sidelined due to these shenanigans. This is not good at all.

 

[what]

NATO membership aside, the action of an individual obviously interested in causing a reaction should not be influencing our foreign policy. This is just populism and amateurish.

 

[Lool]

LOL, I knew this was gonna happen. Erdogan is not a stupid man but he is poison for Turkey. He needs to leave.

Nah this is the first thing he had done right regarding the Swedish matter

The Swedish need to understand that if they keep belittling Turkey, then Turkey will just give them the middle finger and just watch Russia blitz through them with a bag of popcorn

The recent incident, while some portray it as a pure demonstartion, is actually a message to Erdogan and a threat to him; even though Sweden want to join NATO so that if Russia invades, then Turkey will be the one which fights for them

Just saying, but Sweden has really tough anti-semitic laws and normally arrest any demosntration showing anti-semetic ideology. If they can do that to please the jews, then they can also prevent the burning of the holy book of more than 500 million muslims infront of a country's consulate...... period!

It feels as if Turkey is the one asking for Sweden's help and not the other way around for Gods sake

 

[tracer]

Nah this is the first thing he had done right regarding the Swedish matter

The Swedish need to understand that if they keep belittling Turkey, then Turkey will just give them the middle finger and just watch Russia blitz through them with a bag of popcorn

The recent incident, while some portray it as a pure demonstartion, is actually a message to Erdogan and a threat to him; even though Sweden want to join NATO so that if Russia invades, then Turkey will be the one which fights for them

Just saying, but Sweden has really tough anti-semitic laws and normally arrest any demosntration showing anti-semetic ideology. If they can do that to please the jews, then they can also prevent the burning of the holy book of more than 500 million muslims infront of a country's consulate...... period!

It feels as if Turkey is the one asking for Sweden's help and not the other way around for Gods sake

This is a misunderstanding on the role of police in demonstrations, and swedish law. The police can't interfere in expression of opinion when it comes to a legitimate demonstration. If a person in the demonstration is throwing rocks or attacking bystanders, that person would be arrested for assault or battery, just like he would be arrested if he started prying stones out of the pavement and throwing them around in a any other place. If a person or persons attack the police they would be subdued, driven 20-30 kilometers away and released to make their way back, rather than arrested. There are usually demonstrations from the neo nazis once or twice a year, and this is usually what happens.

Guys like Paludan and the extreme right wing knows this very well and makes sure they stay just on the right side of the line. The latest development in how this guy was sponsored and who suggested he burn the Quran in front of the Turkish embassy is actually pretty interesting from a geopolitical standpoint since the idea seems to have come from right wing organisations with a very strong link to russia. During the last election(s) they were exposed with propagating misinformation in an attempt to affect results, sponsored by russian troll farms. I hadn't made that link before, but it makes sense that they would use Paludan to incite exactly this kind of reaction, after all, this is not the first time they tried psyops to affect the media climate.

 

[Anastasius]

Nah this is the first thing he had done right regarding the Swedish matter

The Swedish need to understand that if they keep belittling Turkey, then Turkey will just give them the middle finger and just watch Russia blitz through them with a bag of popcorn

The recent incident, while some portray it as a pure demonstartion, is actually a message to Erdogan and a threat to him; even though Sweden want to join NATO so that if Russia invades, then Turkey will be the one which fights for them

Just saying, but Sweden has really tough anti-semitic laws and normally arrest any demosntration showing anti-semetic ideology. If they can do that to please the jews, then they can also prevent the burning of the holy book of more than 500 million muslims infront of a country's consulate...... period!

It feels as if Turkey is the one asking for Sweden's help and not the other way around for Gods sake

No, it isn't. It was an incredibly stupid move playing right into the hands of those who hate Turkey.

You also misunderstand the idea of NATO, no member state can be forced to fight in the case of Article 5 being invoked. Turkey can send armed forces, it can just as well send some drones and firearms. Each member has the right to determine what form their assistance will take.

 

[Ecderha]

No, it isn't. It was an incredibly stupid move playing right into the hands of those who hate Turkey.

You also misunderstand the idea of NATO, no member state can be forced to fight in the case of Article 5 being invoked. Turkey can send armed forces, it can just as well send some drones and firearms. Each member has the right to determine what form their assistance will take.

it is Article 4 -> " it can just as well send some drones and firearms. Each member has the right to determine what form their assistance will take."

Article 5 -> " is all in "

 

[Ecderha]

NATO membership aside, the action of an individual obviously interested in causing a reaction should not be influencing our foreign policy. This is just populism and amateurish.

It is already involved many individuals (it is not only one case). Also there are terrorists cases,which Turkiye openly and clearly notified since the beginning.
There are no good progress on those matter only words.
I can not understand some people here they hate so much that what ever Turkiye decide something they say it is Bad!
I also do not understand Sweden or Finland people here too. It is not about you country Law. It is about military alliance NATO Laws.
In order to overcome main issue Sweden and Finland must prove are no more a Nest of terrorists. Terrorists which are in they territory and Turkiye requested them have to be handed to Turkiye.

There are no such path that Sweden and Finland hide behind they Laws and protect terrorists and at same time they want to get in NATO alliance.

 

[tracer]

It is already involved many individuals (it is not only one case). Also there are terrorists cases,which Turkiye openly and clearly notified since the beginning.
There are no good progress on those matter only words.
I can not understand some people here they hate so much that what ever Turkiye decide something they say it is Bad!
I also do not understand Sweden or Finland people here too. It is not about you country Law. It is about military alliance NATO Laws.
In order to overcome main issue Sweden and Finland must prove are no more a Nest of terrorists. Terrorists which are in they territory and Turkiye requested them have to be handed to Turkiye.

There are no such path that Sweden and Finland hide behind they Laws and protect terrorists and at same time they want to get in NATO alliance.

NATO is not a lawmaking organisation. NATO is an international treaty organisation and members commit to follow the articles in that treaty. The entrant has to ratify the treaty as well, and in that process they ensure that the treaty is in accordance with the law in that country.
Turkiye law does not apply in Sweden and Swedish law does not apply in Turkiye. Just as Turkiye law does not apply in the United States, the UK or in any other NATO country.
Swedish law does not vary greatly from any other western democracy either with respect to freedom of expression, Norway, Denmark and the Netherlands to name a few have very similar freedoms of expression.

 

[Ryder]

LOL, I knew this was gonna happen. Erdogan is not a stupid man but he is poison for Turkey. He needs to leave.

Hell no i used to be Anti Erdogan but now thanks to ahaber.

Im 100% Erdogang all the way.

I enjoy watching ahaber with my grandma who constantly yells at the tv.