TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[uçuyorum]

In last AMS podcast I've heard we are still buying RPG 7 from abroad. I mean I think with its price RPG 7 will still be relevant alongside other grenade and missile launchers, because ATGM are far more expensive, but seriously, that's something we could easily make a slightly more modern alternative and it would be a significant export item as well.

 

[boredaf]

In last AMS podcast I've heard we are still buying RPG 7 from abroad. I mean I think with its price RPG 7 will still be relevant alongside other grenade and missile launchers, because ATGM are far more expensive, but seriously, that's something we could easily make a slightly more modern alternative and it would be a significant export item as well.

MKE does produce RPG warheads and it is such a simple weapon that there is nothing much you can modernise about it. And we don't actually use RPG-7 a lot, as far as I know, we use HAR-66 (which is our version of M72 LAW) and MKE also produces rocket and launchers for those, have done so for a very long time.

Also, there is nothing wrong with buying stuff from abroad during peace time, as long as you have the capability to increase production if it becomes necessary. From propellants to explosives and materials for shells themselves, all of it takes raw resources and production lines. As we have limited industrial capacity and resources for military production and we have to prioritise them properly. We don't really need to use some of those to produce more RPGs when we can easily buy them, which might even be cheaper than producing them ourselves since everyone and their nans produce RPG-7 locally.

 

[Quasar]

In last AMS podcast I've heard we are still buying RPG 7 from abroad. I mean I think with its price RPG 7 will still be relevant alongside other grenade and missile launchers, because ATGM are far more expensive, but seriously, that's something we could easily make a slightly more modern alternative and it would be a significant export item as well.

last time guess we were buying some from Bulgaria ... should be with thermobaric warhead..??? @Kartal1 Picture of it should be somewhere here in Defencehub posted by Kartal

Edit: it was posted by @Combat-Master

 

[UkroTurk]

RPG-7 is more popular in the world because terrorists could just reach Soviet weapons.
RPG-7 has terrible accuracy as the rocket propulsion is vulnerable from side winds.

I would prefer Recoiless gun rather than rocket propulsion.
Look at US and other modern Armies they use Swedish Carl Gustaf and AT-4.

There is a Turkish company that revealed copy of Carl Gustaf 84mm recoiless gun.

Ağır Silah – ASSAV

assav.com.tr

Unmanned Ground Vehicle mounted several recoiless rifle would be great.

 

[boredaf]

RPG-7 is more popular in the world because terrorists could just reach Soviet weapons.
RPG-7 has terrible accuracy as the rocket propulsion is vulnerable from side winds.

I would prefer Recoiless gun rather than rocket propulsion.
Look at US and other modern Armies they use Swedish Carl Gustaf and AT-4.

There is a Turkish company that revealed copy of Carl Gustaf 84mm recoiless gun.

View attachment 62798

Ağır Silah – ASSAV

assav.com.tr

Unmanned Ground Vehicle mounted several recoiless rifle would be great.

I'd prefer it if we acquired recoilless rifles as well, but RPG-7 and HAR-66, which we use more often, cheaper very short range alternatives. In fact, we use it so much we even made an anti-personnel warhead for HAR-66, I don't know if any other users of M72 LAW has done that. I don't think the army is actually looking for another short range solutions other than what we already have and is focusing on medium to long range in anti-armour capabilities.

 

[Yasar_TR]

GÖKDOĞAN, BOZDOĞAN ve KUZGUN yeni nesil güç geliyor!

Mehmet Fatih Kacır, milli hava-hava füzeleri GÖKDOĞAN,BOZDOĞAN ve KUZGUN'nun 2024 yılında TSK'nın envanterine gireceğini açıkladı.

www.defenceturk.net

Gokdogan, Bozdogan air to air missiles and Kuzgun missile family are set to join the inventory of Turkish Armed Forces in 2024.

Gokdogan being a medium range air to air missile was given a 100+ km range during a recent interview by then SSB president I Demir. According to Defence Turkey magazine the BVR missile Gokdogan, has a Dual Pulse engine as opposed to the Amraam aim 120 missile it will be replacing which has a boost sustain dual thrust engine.
WVR (Within Visual Range) Bozdogan air to air missile, has a given range of 25 km with high manoeuvrability and will replace Aim9x missiles we currently use. It is designed to be fitted on to KAAN when it is ready.

President ERDOĞAN Announces Successful Test of BOZDOĞAN WVR Air-to-Air Missile

On April 14, 2021, President Recep Tayyip ERDOĞAN announced that the BOZDOĞAN IIR guided within visual range (WVR) air-to-air missile developed by youth Turkish technicians and engineers under GÖKTUĞ Project has successfully destroyed its target (TUSAŞ`s ŞİMŞEK high-Speed target Drone) during...

www.defenceturkey.com

Kuzgun missile family will bring high flexibility and interchangeability/inter usability to our armed forces.

KUZGUN Modular Joint Munition Family

KUZGUN is a family of modular munitions being developed by TUBITAK SAGE in response to the need for a tactical

en.defenceturk.net

EDIT:
A small note to add that these a2a missiles were first introduced in 2017 Fair.
It will have taken 7 years for them to be in the inventory.

 

[uçuyorum]

GÖKDOĞAN, BOZDOĞAN ve KUZGUN yeni nesil güç geliyor!

Mehmet Fatih Kacır, milli hava-hava füzeleri GÖKDOĞAN,BOZDOĞAN ve KUZGUN'nun 2024 yılında TSK'nın envanterine gireceğini açıkladı.

www.defenceturk.net

Gokdogan, Bozdogan air to air missiles and Kuzgun missile family are set to join the inventory of Turkish Armed Forces in 2024.

Gokdogan being a medium range air to air missile was given a 100+ km range during a recent interview by then SSB president I Demir. According to Defence Turkey magazine the BVR missile Gokdogan, has a Dual Pulse engine as opposed to the Amraam aim 120 missile it will be replacing which has a boost sustain dual thrust engine.
WVR (Within Visual Range) Bozdogan air to air missile, has a given range of 25 km with high manoeuvrability and will replace Aim9x missiles we currently use. It is designed to be fitted on to KAAN when it is ready.
View attachment 62797

President ERDOĞAN Announces Successful Test of BOZDOĞAN WVR Air-to-Air Missile

On April 14, 2021, President Recep Tayyip ERDOĞAN announced that the BOZDOĞAN IIR guided within visual range (WVR) air-to-air missile developed by youth Turkish technicians and engineers under GÖKTUĞ Project has successfully destroyed its target (TUSAŞ`s ŞİMŞEK high-Speed target Drone) during...

www.defenceturkey.com

Kuzgun missile family will bring high flexibility and interchangeability/inter usability to our armed forces.
View attachment 62800

KUZGUN Modular Joint Munition Family

KUZGUN is a family of modular munitions being developed by TUBITAK SAGE in response to the need for a tactical

en.defenceturk.net

Gökdoğan was first said to have 65km+ that’s good if it’s quoted at 100 now. Btw doesn’t dual pulse essentially activate near the terminal stage and give the missile a significant energy boost and manoeuvrability close to target, making no escape zone longer, essentially?

 

[Afif]

Forgive me for being 'criminally' skeptical about Gokdogan MK1 having dual pulse motor. Although, defenceturkey is a reliable source, i need to hear it from Tubitak or see a visual demonstration like HISAR.

 

[Afif]

Here is a rough calculation for Gokdogan's effective range.

I read in f16.net, the time it takes for a BVR missile to lose 25% of its velocity after burn out at supersonic speeds.

*Never @ > 100,000 m (~300,000 ft) ; in space
*150 seconds @ 24,000 m (~80,000 ft)

*70 seconds @ 18,000 m (~ 60,000 ft)

*25 seconds @ 12,000 m (~ 40,000 ft)

*10 seconds @ 6,000 m (~20,000 ft)

*5 seconds @ Sea Level



Now if Gokdogan is launched at supersonic speed it will achieve Mach 4+ near hypersonic speed.

Let's say a TurAF F16 flew up to 15,0000 meters and launched the Gokdogan at supersonic speed in a lofting trajectory. (To maximize the effective range)

You can see in this Gokdogan test firing video, the nose cone of the F16 is angled at 30-35 degrees upward w.r.t white skyline below.

So, in this case Gokodgan will cover roughly 10km in the boost phase before the rocket motor burns out.
And then it will likely to continue climbing upward in a lofting trajectory. Hence slowing down the velocity loss.

By the time it losses 25% of its velocity and descends to Mach 3, it will probably be 90-100km away or more you get an idea. For an accurate estimate you need to do the math) while still retaining roughly 30G Maneuverability.

Now that it will come down on the target from above in a lofting trajectory, it means, outmanoeuvring it would be relatively harder than if it were to come from any other angle.


On a side note- If above mentioned missile's velocity properties are correct, then it kind of explain, why USA isn't that bothered with not having the best BVR weapon or some countries despite having the chance to get Meteor for its Eurofighter fleet are still buying AIM-120D. (Germany recently requested to buy 969 AIM-120 C-8/D. Or Qatar bought AIM-120 with its Typhoon Trench 3A along meteor) That is probably because, when maximizing the Altitude and speed advantage of Eurofighter (or even better F-15EX with a maximum altitude of 20000m) and launched upward in a lofting trajectory, the effective range of AIM-120D and Meteor does not wildly differ as much as we previously thought.

However, Meteor (or any ducted rocket missile for that matter) will have game changing ability when launched at low altitude like 4000-6000 m where conventional missile losses 25% its velocity in 10 seconds or less. (Plus Meteor will always have superior end game maneuverability due to its multiple pulse motor hence also maximizing the kill probability)

 

[Era_shield]

RPG-7 is more popular in the world because terrorists could just reach Soviet weapons.
RPG-7 has terrible accuracy as the rocket propulsion is vulnerable from side winds.

I would prefer Recoiless gun rather than rocket propulsion.
Look at US and other modern Armies they use Swedish Carl Gustaf and AT-4.

There is a Turkish company that revealed copy of Carl Gustaf 84mm recoiless gun.

View attachment 62798

Ağır Silah – ASSAV

assav.com.tr

Unmanned Ground Vehicle mounted several recoiless rifle would be great.

I agree. Fun fact: RPG-7 rounds veer into crosswind, and they have a multi-phase non-ballistic trajectory. Anyone who reads a training manual for them will have a new respect for soldiers who can hit a target from a distance.

 

[UkroTurk]

I agree. Fun fact: RPG-7 rounds veer into crosswind, and they have a multi-phase non-ballistic trajectory. Anyone who reads a training manual for them will have a new respect for soldiers who can hit a target from a distance.

BS

I would prefer LAW-66 over RPG-7 if i had to choose rockets.
Anyway Turkish Army should have domestic AT-4.

 

[Sanchez]

LAW is light, and this is a huge advantage for commando roles. RPG have one big advantage over it. At least 10 types of warheads for many roles.

Both however have abysmal track record against modern tanks. Turkish infantry is greatly lacking in single troop(tek er) anti tank capability. RPG and LAW are well past their design parameters. We may not be able to equip our mechanized squads with Javelin or Karaoks like Americans, but there has to be a some level between company level Milans and squad level Karaoks( which won’t happen for sure) that we can aim to reach.

 

[Afif]

LAW is light, and this is a huge advantage for commando roles. RPG have one big advantage over it. At least 10 types of warheads for many roles.

Both however have abysmal track record against modern tanks. Turkish infantry is greatly lacking in single troop(tek er) anti tank capability. RPG and LAW are well past their design parameters. We may not be able to equip our mechanized squads with Javelin or Karaoks like Americans, but there has to be a some level between company level Milans and squad level Karaoks( which won’t happen for sure) that we can aim to reach.

Bro, even US army does not have squad level javelin. They have one weapon squad per platoon which is equipped with javelin. (While other three infantry squad in the platoon does not have javelin).

That is the exactly what are you looking for, I think. Between company and squad level, an anti tank team with each platoon.

 

[boredaf]

I guess we have to distinguish two issues

1-What we need for any future conflict against a conventional army i.e what we have to produce in meaningful quantites

2-What we are in need now!!! .

Since currently we are directly involved in a conflict with some mountain rats. Instead of lets say A-4, kara ok or carl gustaf, buying some low thec RPG rounds most probably thermobaric ones again lets say from Bulgaria or somewhere else has its logic. And it is safe to assume that the outcome against rats should be satisfactory for the Army

We don't really need to buy RPG munition though because, as I said before, we mostly use HAR-66 aka M72 LAW and MKE already makes an anti-personnel warhead for it and we use that.

 

[UkroTurk]

Guys forget about RPG-7, it's for monkeys attack. Terriblely İnaccurate.
Recoiless guns such as AT-4 and CG 84 has more velocity.

İf you need bunker busters, Need to do What Americans and Israel do!

M141 Bunker Defeat Munition - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

However we are living in the new era of drones. You don't need to sacrifice your troopers for attack.

There are lot of companies produce Drone mounted LAW-66.
This from US

This from Sweden. NAMMO which produces programmable ammunitions

This is from Ukraine

Turkish Army has a load of RAH-66( LAW-66)

 

[Sanchez]

Bro, even US army does not have squad level javelin. They have one weapon squad per platoon which is equipped with javelin. (While other three infantry squad in the platoon does not have javelin).

That is the exactly what are you looking for, I think. Between company and squad level, an anti tank team with each platoon.

You are right in light infantry brigades. They have their own atgm squads as part of the platoon.

But if you look at Stryker BCTs and their 3 rifle companies each, each 3 rifle squad in one Stryker each have a single Javelin with few reloads. That’s 9 squads with 9 Javelins per company, which gives AT capability to smallest unit available. Each squad also get 2 riflemen with AT4s. Weapons squads in each rifle platoon carry MGs, not AT.

This is simply too expensive for anyone else but the Americans, yes. But in modern war grunts need all the help they can get against armor.

 

[Saithan]

https://x.com/savunmasanayist/status/1723292635564024111?s=46&t=DEy7rapS0QQE2YE7LHul5g

Penguin being fired. Anyone know why the wings are being moved, is it a prelaunch test for functionality ?

 

[Era_shield]

https://x.com/savunmasanayist/status/1723292635564024111?s=46&t=DEy7rapS0QQE2YE7LHul5g

Penguin being fired. Anyone know why the wings are being moved, is it a prelaunch test for functionality ?

 

[Ryder]

LAWs and RPGs are so widespread due to the cold war.

Nowadays both are obsolete but they get the job done not to mention there are too many them which is pretty expensive to replace.

AT4 and the Carl G right now are the best anti tank and anti personnel launchers to use.

Most armies have MG crews rather than AT. Infantry most of time are instructed not to engage in tanks and other armoured vehicles but it seems this doctine avoiding tanks only made infantry get destroyed by armour.

Its all to do with money because not every soldier will get the right tools due to hiearchy.

 

[Afif]

Looks like Iran has unveiled new hypersonic weapon called Fattah-2

https://en.mehrnews.com/news/208531/Iran-unveils-Fattah-2-hypersonic-missile

Interesting concept, doesn't have scramjet. More like a glider. However with a cruise missile shape.