TR Propulsion Systems

[Spitfire9]

I take our officials' words as the most reliable source of information and bet on 2028 as the year when we fly our Kaan with our domestic engine in trials. But I would expect it to happen even earlier as the world is heading towards even more troubled times and we want to be prepared in time for it rather than sit still and be victimized. Necessity is the mother of inventions and we are in for inventing our own weapons. "We can fight!"

I know nothing of jet engine design but I am aware that it is mighty challenging. Has there ever been a case of an engine being designed, built and run for a thousand or so hours to check it works without any problems surfacing that required fixing? It looks like the prototype TF-6000 is taking quite some time to reach the point where it can be fired up.

Is there some sort of expectation that the resolution of any problems encountered with TF-6000 will migrate into TF-35K, rendering its design and development almost problem free? Even if that were to prove the case, when will those lessons be learnt with TF-6000? Those lessons learnt cannot migrate to TF-35K until they have been learnt on TF-6000/TF-10000.

KAAN flying with Turkish engines in 2028 just sounds like a non-starter to me. I don't see the point unless doing so would somehow bring forward the date when TF-35K KAAN could be delivered to the TuAF.

PS I am reminded of the British TRS2 project. With pressure to get it into the air for internal political reasons (there was talk of cancelling it), it flew with unreliable engines even though one had destroyed itself in ground running on the Avro Vulcan flying testbed.

 

[Zafer]

I know nothing of jet engine design but I am aware that it is mighty challenging. Has there ever been a case of an engine being designed, built and run for a thousand or so hours to check it works without any problems surfacing that required fixing? It looks like the prototype TF-6000 is taking quite some time to reach the point where it can be fired up.

Is there some sort of expectation that the resolution of any problems encountered with TF-6000 will migrate into TF-35K, rendering its design and development almost problem free? Even if that were to prove the case, when will those lessons be learnt with TF-6000? Those lessons learnt cannot migrate to TF-35K until they have been learnt on TF-6000/TF-10000.

KAAN flying with Turkish engines in 2028 just sounds like a non-starter to me. I don't see the point unless doing so somehow brought forward the date when TF-35K KAAN could be delivered to the TuAF.

The hardest part to make of any turbine engine is the power turbine blades which needs to take huge heat and pressure and g-forcess and stand it for many run cycles and hours. What the engine maker says for that part of the TF-6000 is that the making of those parts is completed already in time for a first start before the end of 2023. So some easier to make parts are still not completed but are expected to be completed in time.

I believe the turbine blades is the only critical part that will not have been proven on the TF6000 as the TF35000 has slightly different working conditions which is somewahat harsher. However it is not too hard too estimate those conditions and make the blades accordingly. Larger blades have somewhat different workings but there are multiiple methods to achieve the required results so the engineers have tools to use to make it happen.

So the chances are the TF35000 can be a little underpowered initially but still be usable which means it may need to be produced in several itereations instead of in one go before it can be used to power the TFX Kaan to its full potential.

 

[Saithan]

I know nothing of jet engine design but I am aware that it is mighty challenging. Has there ever been a case of an engine being designed, built and run for a thousand or so hours to check it works without any problems surfacing that required fixing? It looks like the prototype TF-6000 is taking quite some time to reach the point where it can be fired up.

Is there some sort of expectation that the resolution of any problems encountered with TF-6000 will migrate into TF-35K, rendering its design and development almost problem free? Even if that were to prove the case, when will those lessons be learnt with TF-6000? Those lessons learnt cannot migrate to TF-35K until they have been learnt on TF-6000/TF-10000.

KAAN flying with Turkish engines in 2028 just sounds like a non-starter to me. I don't see the point unless doing so would somehow bring forward the date when TF-35K KAAN could be delivered to the TuAF.

PS I am reminded of the British TRS2 project. With pressure to get it into the air for internal political reasons (there was talk of cancelling it), it flew with unreliable engines even though one had destroyed itself in ground running on the Avro Vulcan flying testbed.

It remains to be seen mate.

If TEI's knowhow built thanks to assembling F16 engines are going to pull out something a kind to miracle. Then the past two decades of R&D must show us what it's capable of doing.

If it manages to deliver a stable engine even on par with F4 / F16, the political implications for our western allies is going to catastrophic, if it fails to fly or anything then it's a setback.

The good cop / bad cop routine by US and UK would be played out.

There are ifs and buts, but we'll see at the end of december - january. (kinda stupid to test fly things in winter periode, but maybe the tech guys know better).

 

[Yasar_TR]

It remains to be seen mate.

If TEI's knowhow built thanks to assembling F16 engines are going to pull out something a kind to miracle. Then the past two decades of R&D must show us what it's capable of doing.

If it manages to deliver a stable engine even on par with F4 / F16, the political implications for our western allies is going to catastrophic, if it fails to fly or anything then it's a setback.

The good cop / bad cop routine by US and UK would be played out.

There are ifs and buts, but we'll see at the end of december - january. (kinda stupid to test fly things in winter periode, but maybe the tech guys know better).

Hürjet flew (with F404 engines GE supplied). That to me shows that Tusas knows how to build a jet aircraft from scratch. OK they may have received certain technological/design help from the likes of Akaer-Brazil, used Italian flight computer systems. But that doesn’t detract from the fact that Hurjet is the baby of Tusas.

Now we are waiting for another plane of Tusas in the name of KAAN to fly with F110GE129E engines supplied by GE. Having proven in Hurjet their expertise and capability, I have full confidence in Tusas that the KAAN will fly.
Getting KAAN to fly with indigenous engines and Aesa radar and sensors is another discussion point. That will unleash KAAN’s full potential.

 

[Quasar]

@Yasar with manufacturing technologies used for TF6000 yet Still with very limited info. Can you speculate about the lifetime of TF6000?

 

[Afif]

"The average lifespan of the TS1400 is expected to be at least 2,500 cycles, while the target for the service life is 5,000 cycles (TAC)."

Original Power System TS1400 Turboshaft Engine Developed by TEI’s Seasoned Team of Experts for the T625 Helicopter

As a close follower of development and innovations in the field of aviation engines TUSAS Engine Industries Inc. (TEI) has accomplished important milestones in the initiatives toward developing the indigenous and national TS1400 Turboshaft Engine under the Turboshaft Engine Development Project...

www.defenceturkey.com

Now given they will use the same single crystal blades in TF6000/10000, experts and professionals can try to do some guesstimates.

Although, let's not forget for TF6000/10000 turbine inlet temperature would likely to be 250-300 degree Celsius higher than TS1400. (TS1400 turbine inlet temperature is probably around 1000 Celsius based on the specs of similar engine in class)

 

[Spitfire9]

The hardest part to make of any turbine engine is the power turbine blades which needs to take huge heat and pressure and g-forcess and stand it for many run cycles and hours. What the engine maker says for that part of the TF-6000 is that the making of those parts is completed already in time for a first start before the end of 2023. So some easier to make parts are still not completed but are expected to be completed in time.

I believe the turbine blades is the only critical part that will not have been proven on the TF6000 as the TF35000 has slightly different working conditions which is somewahat harsher. However it is not too hard too estimate those conditions and make the blades accordingly. Larger blades have somewhat different workings but there are multiiple methods to achieve the required results so the engineers have tools to use to make it happen.

So the chances are the TF35000 can be a little underpowered initially but still be usable which means it may need to be produced in several itereations instead of in one go before it can be used to power the TFX Kaan to its full potential.

Even if TF35000 were initially 15% down on desired thrust, it would have the output of F110 so I guess that would not be much of a problem.

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Yasar with manufacturing technologies used for TF6000 yet Still with very limited info. Can you speculate about the lifetime of TF6000?

Normally I don’t like speculating. But if I have to, then it is best to relate to certain facts:
TEI expertise comes from the school of US jet engine manufacturing. The military jet engines they have produced/assembled, have life expectancy of 8000 hour level.
The TF6000, using Blisk tech used in F110GE129E will be theoretically more efficient. But the TF6000 has a much higher bypass ratio than similar thrust level low bypass engines. This engine is a fairly large diameter engine too. Also the hot section, which is the most critical part, particularly the HP turbine section will be all home made and engineered. We won’t know how well our 3rd generation single crystals will perform.

In 2004, GE and P&W together developed a 4th generation Single Crystal blade and GE, successfully used these blades in f110-129 engine. These blades showed better performance characteristics than the 3rd generation counterparts. If they are using these in their current engines, then they will have higher life expectancies than pre 2004 engines.

TF6000 has 40% of its thrust being generated by the bypass airflow. That means that the LP turbines driving the LP section of the compressor needs higher TIT (turbine inlet temp) levels. That will put extra stress on the blades.
For a starter engine, I would be happy if TF6000 managed half of F110’s life expectancy when in serial production.

 

[Saithan]

Normally I don’t like speculating. But if I have to, then it is best to relate to certain facts:
TEI expertise comes from the school of US jet engine manufacturing. The military jet engines they have produced/assembled, have life expectancy of 8000 hour level.
The TF6000, using Blisk tech used in F110GE129E will be theoretically more efficient. But the TF6000 has a much higher bypass ratio than similar thrust level low bypass engines. This engine is a fairly large diameter engine too. Also the hot section, which is the most critical part, particularly the HP turbine section will be all home made and engineered. We won’t know how well our 3rd generation single crystals will perform.

In 2004, GE and P&W together developed a 4th generation Single Crystal blade and GE, successfully used these blades in f110-129 engine. These blades showed better performance characteristics than the 3rd generation counterparts. If they are using these in their current engines, then they will have higher life expectancies than pre 2004 engines.

TF6000 has 40% of its thrust being generated by the bypass airflow. That means that the LP turbines driving the LP section of the compressor needs higher TIT (turbine inlet temp) levels. That will put extra stress on the blades.
For a starter engine, I would be happy if TF6000 managed half of F110’s life expectancy when in serial production.

But considering TEI has been assembling F16, why opt for a solution and design an engine that puts much stress on the engine ?

Are we cutting corners to reach our initial objective ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

But considering TEI has been assembling F16, why opt for a solution and design an engine that puts much stress on the engine ?

Are we cutting corners to reach our initial objective ?

On the contrary. We are again aiming for the top! Let me explain a bit.

TF6000 has a Low Pressure turbine right at the back of it just before the nozzle. This turbine drives the big fan in the front and the Low pressure compressors just behind this fan. (The High pressure turbine drives the high pressure compressors hence the twin spool configuration).
If you have a very low bypass ratio of 0.34:1 like in say f404, you have plenty of compressed air going through the combustion chamber and turbines, turning the low pressure turbine which drives the low pressure compressor. So you don’t really need too high a TIT (turbine inlet temperature) to develop thrust.
But if you are pushing large amounts of this air trough bypass channels around the engine (in case of TF6000, some 40%) , then you need to increase the TIT to develop enough power to drive the fan and LP compressors.

By pushing large amounts of colder air around the engine and through the nozzle, you are decreasing the heat signature of the TF6000. Also it improves efficiency; particularly when flying in denser air layers. It has potential to outperform any other lower bypass engine with similar thrust, in altitudes lower than 35000ft.
Also for further development in to an adaptive bypass engine in mind, this is a good starter engine to develop.

Internal Layout of TEI-TF6000, a Low Bypass Turbofan Engine

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[TheInsider]

"The average lifespan of the TS1400 is expected to be at least 2,500 cycles, while the target for the service life is 5,000 cycles (TAC)."

Original Power System TS1400 Turboshaft Engine Developed by TEI’s Seasoned Team of Experts for the T625 Helicopter

As a close follower of development and innovations in the field of aviation engines TUSAS Engine Industries Inc. (TEI) has accomplished important milestones in the initiatives toward developing the indigenous and national TS1400 Turboshaft Engine under the Turboshaft Engine Development Project...

www.defenceturkey.com

Now given they will use the same single crystal blades in TF6000/10000, experts and professionals can try to do some guesstimates.

Although, let's not forget for TF6000/10000 turbine inlet temperature would likely to be 250-300 degree Celsius higher than TS1400. (TS1400 turbine inlet temperature is probably around 1000 Celsius based on the specs of similar engine in class)

The process that starts from the engine right through to shutting it off again is known as a cycle, and over the engine’s lifetime there are only a finite number of cycles before something cracks or breaks. The conventional methodology for measuring this lifespan which many engine manufacturers use is the TAC (Total Accumulated Cycles). One TAC is the equivalent of one cycle of an engine (exactly: one excursion from engine start, passing intermediate power rating and back to engine stop). The average lifespan of the TS1400 is expected to be at least 2,500 cycles, while the target for the service life is 5,000 cycles (TAC). After 2,500 or 5,000 cycles the TS1400 will require a general overhaul.

If one cycle is on average a 2-hour flight this means 5000 to 10000 flight hours before overhaul.

 

[Quasar]

@Yasar ok last question I promise What is this? can it be for real

SSB: Development of High Temperature Eutectic Oxide Ceramic Matrix Composites and development of eutectic oxide ceramic matrix composite materials that can be an alternative to nickel-based super alloys for high temperature turbine parts in gas turbine aviation engines.

 

[Saithan]

https://x.com/sanayisavunmatr/status/1730126985035182131?s=46&t=DEy7rapS0QQE2YE7LHul5g

Aksit saying TF10000 ready to be integrated to a 100 person plane, so… why is he throwing the ball to politicians ?
Politics ? He just got downgraded to propoganda outlet, congratz.

 

[uçuyorum]

https://x.com/sanayisavunmatr/status/1730126985035182131?s=46&t=DEy7rapS0QQE2YE7LHul5g

Aksit saying TF10000 ready to be integrated to a 100 person plane, so… why is he throwing the ball to politicians ?
Politics ? He just got downgraded to propoganda outlet, congratz.

He doesn't say ready to be integrated, he says it could power it. I think SSB isplaying wait and see while TEI is funding the project so they just want to be given a tender or something to fund the development.

 

[Yasar_TR]

@Yasar ok last question I promise What is this? can it be for real

SSB: Development of High Temperature Eutectic Oxide Ceramic Matrix Composites and development of eutectic oxide ceramic matrix composite materials that can be an alternative to nickel-based super alloys for high temperature turbine parts in gas turbine aviation engines.

This is nice to hear. Eutectic is a terminology used in chemistry. It denotes a mixture of two or more elements (in set proportions) which would melt and solidify at a single temperature that is lower than the melting points of the individual constituents.
Alloys made from Eutectic Oxides of CMC can be directionally solidified so that a single Crystal is formed and in turn they can improve the thermal performance properties of turbines. You can read a bit more in the link down below.

If we are working on these that is good news. I hope TEI is also planning to study adaptive cycle systems along side of the development of TF35K engine.

https://aerospacelab.onera.fr/sites/w3.onera.fr.aerospacelab/files/AL3-07_0_0.pdf

 

[Cabatli_TR]

@Yasar ok last question I promise What is this? can it be for real

SSB: Development of High Temperature Eutectic Oxide Ceramic Matrix Composites and development of eutectic oxide ceramic matrix composite materials that can be an alternative to nickel-based super alloys for high temperature turbine parts in gas turbine aviation engines.

CMC project we mentioned above will have devastating effects. As a 5th generation engine, Tf35K is planned to enter mass production around 2032/33. OTOH, Ceramic Matrix Composite project will be used in the development of 6th generation turbofan engines as a continuation of Tf35K I believe. This project involves very special, expensive and very high-tech hot section technology. While a 3rd generation CMSX super-alloy SCB can reach ~1400-1500 TITs, blades that will be developed with CMC will push much higher TITs. The impact it will create in this field will be as we predicted

GE CMC Blade

They are planning to use CMC tech for new gen turbofan engine that will replace F135.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Btw, Tf35K consortium seems to have officially grown.

According to Mete Yarar quoting/confirming what he says by quoting the interview of journalists (Mr.Mustafa Kartoğlu) with President Mr Erdoğan on airliner. He said that RR has joined Tf35K team and actively participated in the design phase.

Turkiye Gazetesi has also announced in similar dates that RR and KALE (TAEC) has joined the Tf35K program. According to news, Serial production will be done by TEI but Alp aviation, Trmotor and Kale will also join the serial production. TAEC will only have responsibility for design and certification.

According to this news, Design and development team will be shaped as follow;

Design:

• Trmotor (Main contractor)
• IvP
• TEI
• RR
• Kale

Serial production

• TEI (Main contractor)
• Trmotor
• Kale
• Alp Aviation

 

[boredaf]

Btw, Tf35K consortium seems to have officially grown.

According to Mete Yarar quoting/confirming what he says by quoting the interview of journalists (Mr.Mustafa Kartoğlu) on airliner with President Mr Erdoğan. He said that RR has joined Tf35K team and actively participated in the design phase.

Turkiye Gazetesi has also announced in similar dates that RR and KALE (TAEC) has joined the Tf35K program. According to news, Serial production will be done by TEI but Alp aviation, Trmotor and Kale will also join the serial production. TAEC will only have responsibility for design and certification.

According to this news, Design and development team will be shaped as follow;

Design:

• Trmotor (Main contractor)
• IvP
• TEI
• RR
• Kale

Serial production

• TEI (Main contractor)
• Trmotor
• Kale
• Alp Aviation

If this is true, this is huge news. I wonder what contribution each will make to design process because that is a very diverse coalition of companies in design and experience.

 

[Zafer]

The question is what stipulations are RR putting forward for being part of the deal?

 

[Cabatli_TR]

If this is true, this is huge news. I wonder what contribution each will make to design process because that is a very diverse coalition of companies in design and experience.

Currently, 650 engineers are working on design projects. This number will probably now approach 1000s. With joining of RR, it will probably be worked as a consortium similar to Eurojet but IP rights of each piece to be designed will belong to Turkiye. Under leadership of Trmotor, The engine will be divided into certain sections according to difficulty levels and there will be certain sections that each company is responsible for designing I guess. Different qualification and test procedures will be carried out for each section and final assembled and completed engine will eventually "Power our Freedom"