TR Propulsion Systems

[Spitfire9]

„Largest“ in size?

P&W F135 is reported to have 43,000 lb wet thrust, so it is more powerful than a 35,000 lb wet thrust engine.

I read that F-35 has MTOW of about 32 tonnes , KAAN about 27 tonnes. Why does KAAN need 2 x 35,000 lb thrust engines?

 

[uçuyorum]

P&W F135 is reported to have 43,000 lb wet thrust, so it is more powerful than a 35,000 lb wet thrust engine.

I read that F-35 has MTOW of about 32 tonnes , KAAN about 27 tonnes. Why does KAAN need 2 x 35,000 lb thrust engines?

A few things. KAAN is supposed to supercruise, although a version that can't would still be fine honestly. KAAN is a big plane so that could mean significantly higher drag coefficient. On top, compared to something like F22, the actual wing area is smaller so lift is going to be an issue too.

 

[Zafer]

KAAN is also supposed to be a faster plane which requires more power.

 

[Afif]

P&W F135 is reported to have 43,000 lb wet thrust, so it is more powerful than a 35,000 lb wet thrust engine.

I read that F-35 has MTOW of about 32 tonnes , KAAN about 27 tonnes. Why does KAAN need 2 x 35,000 lb thrust engines?

That is a misunderstanding, 27 tons is definitely not KAAN MTOW. It is very likely to be the gross weight. KAAN will be carry 10 tons of ammunitions and fuel internally. F-22 carries 9.5 tons internally with an empty weight of 19tons and gross weight of 29tons.

Similarly, i believe KAAN has an empty weight of 17 tons and gross weight of 27 tons.

MTOW for F-22 and J-20 are 38 tons and 37 tons respectively. KAAN is bigger than both, I really don’t see how KAAN can have empty weight less than 17 tons. So, unless when fully loaded inside with 10 tons KAAN cannot carry anything outside, (in a beast mode) 27 tons can’t be KAAN's MTOW.

 

[Yasar_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1727003877168558145

(TEI General Manager Prof. Dr. Mahmut Faruk Akşit: "The engine of the National Combat Aircraft will be the 2nd largest engine in the world.)

Turkish is, at times, quite “confusing” when you translate it in to English!
“En Büyük” within context can mean ; Largest, Biggest, Most Powerful.

The wording used here is, in essence, quite wrong. Because there are many turbofans used in civil airliners that develop at least 3.5 times more thrust and much larger than the TF35K is going to be in dimensions. It should have been largest jet fighter engine built in the west.
Unless TEI decided to veer off from the given 35000lbf wet thrust engine it was planning to produce for KAAN, that thrust level is not the largest thrust level there is for a fighter jet engine.

As a quick example of some engines built and demonstrated:
GE-XA100 and P&W-XA101 develop 45000lbf wet thrust.
GE-F136 and P&W-F135 develop 43000lbf wet thrust
AL51F develops 37500lbf wet thrust
P&W-F119 develops 35000lbf wet thrust
WS15 develops 39700lbf wet thrust.

Also since the engine has to fit in to an engine compartment that houses an F110 engine (approximate diameter of 120cm) , it can’t be the largest diameter he is talking about, as all above engines (with the exception of AL51F and WS15, which have smaller diameters) are built to fit in to an engine housing that will accommodate an engine with an approximate diameter of 120cm.

If we take it that he is talking about the largest “western” engine in thrust and in actual use, then after the F135, it sits in second place with the F119. Of course, by the time TF35K is flying in KAAN, we may have had NGAD flying with XA100.
To me this is a politically motivated statement made in haste for the masses.

 

[Zafer]

What is too hard to understand that Mr Akşit tells about an engine in a class of engines that need to be compared with its peers in the class, which is production twin engines that is in use and not only for demonstration.

 

[Spitfire9]

P&W F135 is reported to have 43,000 lb wet thrust, so it is more powerful than a 35,000 lb wet thrust engine.

I read that F-35 has MTOW of about 32 tonnes , KAAN about 27 tonnes. Why does KAAN need 2 x 35,000 lb thrust engines?

Thanks for the responses above but I am mystified by KAAN designers wanting 70,000 lb wet thrust. According to my crude calculations

Wet thrust

F-35 (43,000 lb thrust) @ MTOW of 32 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.6
F-22 (35,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 38 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.82
KAAN (35,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 27 tonnes T/W ratio = 1.15

With KAAN's T/W ratio it would be able to climb vertically at MTOW.

Dry thrust

F-35 (28,000 lb thrust) @ MTOW of 32 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.39
F-22 (26,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 38 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.61
KAAN (24,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 27 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.79

Is KAAN going to be much, much draggier than F-22? Perhaps allowance is made for KAAN's weight to rise as time goes by?

 

[Merzifonlu]

If we take it that he is talking about the largest “western” engine in thrust and in actual use, then after the F135, it sits in second place with the F119. Of course, by the time TF35K is flying in KAAN, we may have had NGAD flying with XA100.

I think, "It will be the second largest engine in terms of size among Western-style fighter jet engines", he said. I don't think Dr. Akşit mean thrust value.

 

[Afif]

Thanks for the responses above but I am mystified by KAAN designers wanting 70,000 lb wet thrust. According to my crude calculations

Wet thrust

F-35 (43,000 lb thrust) @ MTOW of 32 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.6
F-22 (35,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 38 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.82
KAAN (35,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 27 tonnes T/W ratio = 1.15

With KAAN's T/W ratio it would be able to climb vertically at MTOW.

Dry thrust

F-35 (28,000 lb thrust) @ MTOW of 32 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.39
F-22 (26,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 38 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.61
KAAN (24,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 27 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.79

Is KAAN going to be much, much draggier than F-22? Perhaps allowance is made for KAAN's weight to rise as time goes by?

Did you understand what i wrote?

KAAN simply doesn't have MTOW of 27 tons. (There is no official figure yet.) Common sense dictates that it is gross weight.

 

[Era_shield]

Thanks for the responses above but I am mystified by KAAN designers wanting 70,000 lb wet thrust. According to my crude calculations

Wet thrust

F-35 (43,000 lb thrust) @ MTOW of 32 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.6
F-22 (35,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 38 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.82
KAAN (35,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 27 tonnes T/W ratio = 1.15

With KAAN's T/W ratio it would be able to climb vertically at MTOW.

Dry thrust

F-35 (28,000 lb thrust) @ MTOW of 32 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.39
F-22 (26,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 38 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.61
KAAN (24,000 lb thrust x 2) @ MTOW of 27 tonnes T/W ratio = 0.79

Is KAAN going to be much, much draggier than F-22? Perhaps allowance is made for KAAN's weight to rise as time goes by?

From those figures it seems clear that MTOW for Kaan will be higher than 27t.

 

[Spitfire9]

Did you understand what i wrote?

KAAN simply doesn't have MTOW of 27 tons. (There is no official figure yet.) Common sense dictates that it is gross weight.

I don't get your point. Wikipedia cites 27 tons MTOW as the figure projected by TAI. I compared apples to apples in my T/W comparison for F-22, F-35 and KAAN.

PS Sorry, I missed your post about the weight being higher than 27 tons because I was working out T/W figures at the time.

From those figures it seems clear that MTOW for Kaan will be higher than 27t.

OK. Figures I used for KAAN weight were underestimated.

 

[Afif]

Could be relevant here.

 

[Ecderha]

This is Japan project for engine for future fighter.
The XF9 is a product of an ATLA project, Research on main components of next generation engines
It is for comparison.
Please read Very carefully section "Technical Features"

IHI Corporation XF9 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Rodeo]

Also according to CEO Turkish TRMotor turbofan engines will be ready in 2028.

Ready for what? Service?

 

[DBdev]

Ready for what? Service?

They are currently building the engine they designed if I am not mistaken. Ground tests will take long. 4-5 years.
2028 first flight. 2030 for service.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1657468287947616256

 

[Rodeo]

They are currently building the engine they designed if I am not mistaken. Ground tests will take long. 4-5 years.
2028 first flight. 2030 for service.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1657468287947616256

They are not building the engine. The project is not that far along.

Considering its peers(WS-15, F119, F135) took at least 15 years to be develop by the two superpowers, it would be quite extraordinary even if we put the engine in service as early as 2033.

 

[DBdev]

Approval for F-16 and Eurofighter is not forthcoming. It looks to me that the earliest KAAN (with F110) will be delivered to TuAF is early in the next decade. If that is a problem, Turkiye has a problem. The question to me is whether any steps can be taken to mitigate that problem - can a type be ordered that could enter service several years before KAAN? Getting a type into service shortly before KAAN enters service does not seem like a good idea but

(a) would cover the risk of substantial delay in F110 KAAN entering service
(b) would give Turkiye the option of abandoning the idea of a production version using F110 in favour of waiting for a KAAN version with a Turkish engine

That second option makes me think of India. India may approve procuring 100 more Tejas Mk1A tomorrow - not because the IAF wants them particularly (it wants medium weight fighters) but because it is the quickest way of getting more fighters into service.

Türkiye has been making most parts of F110 for decades believe it or not as half partner of General Electric.

And now we can make the "top secret" hot parts too, all in Türkiye without any foreign help. Thanks to 800+ critical material, cutting edge production projects started decades earlier.

Korea, India are far behind of Türkiye in engine area. Even their engine project targets aren't close to top of the line GE-F110 that we have mastered.

If west doesn't give even licensed production permission to build F110s. We could easily make a slightly modified version tomorrow.
It is out of courtesy that we are asking, not desperation like some skeptics in west imagine.

Korea, India, Europe never had the urgency we have. They don't work 3 shift days including all engineers like we do for years. They have to justify their spending, etc. we don't. KAAN, it's engines are national priority. Eurofighter, F-16V they can act like jerks, if they want to. We can do without them thanks to Siper that is being delivered to TAF.

That is why Turkish KAAN and TRMotor 5th gen stealth turbofan will finish much faster than others including CHINA. Since they started from scratch. When were already making F110s, F-16s and even 5th gen F-35 parts in Türkiye.

PS: The engineer who made billion dollar a pop B2 stealth plane, well... stealth is a Turkish patriot. His entire village was murdered by Greeks. He was the sole survivor as a baby.

Don't compare us with other nations.

 

[Maximilien Robespierre]

TUSAS CEO Kotil already said they will deliver 20 KAAN to Turkish Air Force in 2028. And will make 2 more each month. Also they can keep doubling that easily as much as required. Also according to CEO Turkish TRMotor turbofan engines will be ready in 2028.

I trust HIM buddy, he stood behind his words so far.

Aselsan Murad is never "ready" and never will be. New radar development on such a critical platform is always ongoing. You need to gather as much radar signature data as possible (Qatar brings their jets to us for that purpose) from various angles, distances and conditions to identify enemy from as far a distance possible without revealing your own location. And to improve your AESA wave forming techniques, EW, cooling etc. Murad, BURFIS will never be "ready" but both will do their jobs. Just like ground based AESA radars from Aselsan they will improve constantly.

Yeah bro keep dreaming we don't even mass produced TF600 but surely we could make a fifth gen engine maybe stop watching TRT or A-haber.

*Korea, India are far behind of Türkiye in engine area. Even their engine project targets aren't close to top of the line GE-F110 that we have mastered.*

This part made me laugh India was building several engines while we were struggling with TS1400 and that is a turboshaft engine not even a jet engine.

We turks have this delusion that KAAN will beat F35 or other proven jets KAAN will enter service in probably 2035 with foreign engines.

Also making an F110 engine doesn't qualift that tr motor could made fifth gen engine in 5 years even superpowers had problems and they weren't embargoed like us.

F110 IS A FOURTH GEN ENGINE MAN AMOUNT OF MISINFORMATION AND DELUSION THIS GUY IS WRITING KILLING ME @Nilgiri could you give him a lesson about Indian engine programs he seems ignorant

 

[Rodeo]

Türkiye has been making most parts of F110 for decades believe it or not as half partner of General Electric.

We were not making most of the F110 parts. Here are the parts that TEI had been producing for F110 program. None of those were critical, afaik.

Korea, India are far behind of Türkiye in engine area. Even their engine project targets aren't close to top of the line GE-F110 that we have mastered.

I can't speak for India but you should read more about Korean turbine engine programs that are both in service or in testing. They're not behind us. They will be if we achieve our goals with TF6000 and TS1400 but that's not today's reality.

If west doesn't give even licensed production permission to build F110s. We could easily make a slightly modified version tomorrow.
It is out of courtesy that we are asking, not desperation like some skeptics in west imagine.

We can't make F110 tomorrow. Even if GE gave us all the blueprints, the lack of capital machinery would be a roadblock.

It's better to listen to the engine guys like Mahmut Akşit or senior TEI engineers like Sinan Şal about engine timelines. Their estimations would be more accurate than Temel Kotil's or other figures'.

 

[TheInsider]

They are not building the engine. The project is not that far along.

Considering its peers(WS-15, F119, F135) took at least 15 years to be develop by the two superpowers, it would be quite extraordinary even if we put the engine in service as early as 2033.

That is not a good comparison. Those engines are designed with the tech of the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. TF35 is in design with the tech of 2020.

Even if GE gave us all the blueprints, the lack of capital machinery would be a roadblock.

This is not true. TEI can manufacture any engine with its current machine shop capabilities.