India Historical Indian War History Thread

Joe Shearer

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So decent tactician. Pathetic strategist.
Straining a point, but yes. In that 1965 battle (Chawinda), he was a brigade commander, but their job was to block an Indian thrust made with great force, but with nincompoops in command, including a general officer who cocked it up in 1965, and cocked it up again, here, in Chawinda.

OK, let's not quibble, not a failure as a tactician/ front line commander, but wouldn't have been able to spell 'strategy'. Speaking of which, it would be interesting to discuss what strategy Niazi COULD have used.
 

Joe Shearer

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The nitty gritties that were emphasized, the small victories that didn't matter in the end as the overall objective was never met.
Kargil?
71?
65?
48?

Which? Also, we need to discuss it in detail, if we are to get some nourishment out of.
 

Smoke

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The genesis of the Kargil conflict dates back to India's strategic move in 1984 to control the Siachen Glacier, preventing a similar Pakistani takeover in Kargil by deploying a dedicated division. Pakistan's plan involved covertly creating gaps in Kargil's defense, training local forces, and replacing regular troops to seize areas beyond India's control. Over the years, they maintained secrecy in their buildup.

In the early 1990s, Indian intelligence noted Pakistan's creation of 10 Northern Light Infantry battalions. Discussions between Military Intelligence and Military Operations vaguely addressed this, overlooking the potential use of these relieved troops.

Pakistan exploited a quiet Kargil sector and infiltrated into the Kashmir Valley, prompting Indian generals to shift forces, leaving vulnerabilities in Kargil's defense. Moreover, strategic heights previously under Indian control were later occupied by Pakistan, with no subsequent inquiry.

Subsequent decisions, including changing key commanders and removing experienced troops, weakened India's defense. Critical equipment, aerial support, and mine-laying operations were hampered. The Kargil Division was redeployed away from its primary task, and critical communication centers were lost due to fire accidents. Tanks were non-functional, and frontline troops were diverted for non-combat tasks, compromising the country's defense.

Despite attempts to raise concerns and requisition necessary resources, critical defense stores and support were denied, worsening the situation during the conflict. The mismanagement, lack of preparedness, and questionable decisions by senior officials led to a strategic debacle in the Kargil War.

Pakistan retreated from Kargil following international pressure and diplomatic efforts that led to the Clinton-Sharif agreement. This agreement aimed to restore the Line of Control (LoC) in adherence to the Simla Agreement.

Under this deal, Pakistan agreed to withdraw its forces from the Kargil region, seeking an honorable exit from the conflict. The retreat was influenced by diplomatic negotiations that stressed de-escalation and adherence to established agreements between India and Pakistan.

In summary, Pakistan successfully internationalized Kashmir. However, events such as Nawaz Sharif's discussions with China's leaders in Beijing and his meeting with President Bill Clinton in Washington DC strongly suggest that China's neutral stance played a crucial role in what is now known as the Clinton-Sharif deal.

This deal, considered a key external factor in expediting the end of the Kargil conflict, aimed to provide an honorable exit for the Pakistani armed forces. It emphasized restoring the Line of Control (LoC) in accordance with the Simla Agreement by Pakistan.

In return, President Clinton pledged his personal involvement in the Kashmir dispute and expressed intentions to visit South Asia before the end of his term next year.
@Joe Shearer, I shared my response on Kargil here..
 

Joe Shearer

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The genesis of the Kargil conflict dates back to India's strategic move in 1984 to control the Siachen Glacier, preventing a similar Pakistani takeover in Kargil by deploying a dedicated division. Pakistan's plan involved covertly creating gaps in Kargil's defense, training local forces, and replacing regular troops to seize areas beyond India's control. Over the years, they maintained secrecy in their buildup.

In the early 1990s, Indian intelligence noted Pakistan's creation of 10 Northern Light Infantry battalions. Discussions between Military Intelligence and Military Operations vaguely addressed this, overlooking the potential use of these relieved troops.

Pakistan exploited a quiet Kargil sector and infiltrated into the Kashmir Valley, prompting Indian generals to shift forces, leaving vulnerabilities in Kargil's defense. Moreover, strategic heights previously under Indian control were later occupied by Pakistan, with no subsequent inquiry.

Subsequent decisions, including changing key commanders and removing experienced troops, weakened India's defense. Critical equipment, aerial support, and mine-laying operations were hampered. The Kargil Division was redeployed away from its primary task, and critical communication centers were lost due to fire accidents. Tanks were non-functional, and frontline troops were diverted for non-combat tasks, compromising the country's defense.

Despite attempts to raise concerns and requisition necessary resources, critical defense stores and support were denied, worsening the situation during the conflict. The mismanagement, lack of preparedness, and questionable decisions by senior officials led to a strategic debacle in the Kargil War.

Pakistan retreated from Kargil following international pressure and diplomatic efforts that led to the Clinton-Sharif agreement. This agreement aimed to restore the Line of Control (LoC) in adherence to the Simla Agreement.

Under this deal, Pakistan agreed to withdraw its forces from the Kargil region, seeking an honorable exit from the conflict. The retreat was influenced by diplomatic negotiations that stressed de-escalation and adherence to established agreements between India and Pakistan.

In summary, Pakistan successfully internationalized Kashmir. However, events such as Nawaz Sharif's discussions with China's leaders in Beijing and his meeting with President Bill Clinton in Washington DC strongly suggest that China's neutral stance played a crucial role in what is now known as the Clinton-Sharif deal.

This deal, considered a key external factor in expediting the end of the Kargil conflict, aimed to provide an honorable exit for the Pakistani armed forces. It emphasized restoring the Line of Control (LoC) in accordance with the Simla Agreement by Pakistan.

In return, President Clinton pledged his personal involvement in the Kashmir dispute and expressed intentions to visit South Asia before the end of his term next year.
OK, just read it, I see where you are coming from, but seriously disagree.

Tomorrow, I will post you a URL that contains an anecdotal account by Brigadier Devinder Singh (not Brig. Surinder Singh, this was the man responsible for clearing the Batalik sector). This can be an interesting discussion.
 

Smoke

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OK, just read it, I see where you are coming from, but seriously disagree.

Tomorrow, I will post you a URL that contains an anecdotal account by Brigadier Devinder Singh (not Brig. Surinder Singh, this was the man responsible for clearing the Batalik sector). This can be an interesting discussion.
Sure thing, looking forward to it!
 

Marlii

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During times of conflict or war, India, like many other nations, often uses various forms of storytelling, including fiction, to shape narratives and influence public perception. It's a common strategy used by governments to foster unity, boost morale, and convey specific messages aligned with their objectives.

In India's context, literature, films, and other media have been employed to evoke patriotism, showcase heroism, and mold public sentiment during wartime. These narratives serve as a tool to foster a sense of national identity and garner support for particular actions or policies.

However, it's crucial to distinguish between fictional storytelling for entertainment purposes and the deliberate use of narratives with a political or nationalistic agenda. In the context of conflict, these narratives often aim to sway public opinion and rally support rather than purely entertain.

So, in my view, while India, like other nations, utilizes fiction during wartime, it's part of a broader strategy to shape perceptions and garner backing for certain ideologies or actions rather than solely for entertainment purposes.

Propaganda still plays a significant role in steering debates and discussions. We see it a lot, especially when topics get heated or controversial. Nowadays, with technology and social media, it's easier to spread misinformation or biased viewpoints to control the narrative.
Every nation uses propaganda during wartime. Some uses it even during peace time but in the end if a military is more inclined to commit coupes than defending the nation you have to make propaganda to justify it. Eg Start a war then get beaten back to your major city and then celebrate "defence day" as how you valiently defended your homeland. Commit horrendous warcrimes on Bangladesh but never own upto it. Speaking about propaganda
IMG_20231127_052202.jpg
IMG_20231127_052237.jpg
IMG_20231127_052325.jpg
IMG_20231127_052359.jpg

From this jingostic to this after the war
IMG_20231127_052441.jpg

Propaganda is a necessity to control the population especially during wartime and inventing of fairytales like shooting 5 IAF fighters in one minute are evn though hilarious is necessay for a nation that is fighting according to it for its survival.
 

Smoke

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Every nation uses propaganda during wartime. Some uses it even during peace time but in the end if a military is more inclined to commit coupes than defending the nation you have to make propaganda to justify it. Eg Start a war then get beaten back to your major city and then celebrate "defence day" as how you valiently defended your homeland. Commit horrendous warcrimes on Bangladesh but never own upto it. Speaking about propaganda View attachment 63301 View attachment 63302 View attachment 63303 View attachment 63304
From this jingostic to this after the war View attachment 63305
Propaganda is a necessity to control the population especially during wartime and inventing of fairytales like shooting 5 IAF fighters in one minute are evn though hilarious is necessay for a nation that is fighting according to it for its survival.

Great (y)

I'm not at all interested in discussing anything with you, Please don't make this thread obnoxious, I'm only interested in the truth, not your veiled slander that occupies your responses. You have a problem with Pakistan, take up arms and sort it out yourself. I know you can't help it, but please try to control your impulses.
 

Smoke

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OK, just read it, I see where you are coming from, but seriously disagree.

Tomorrow, I will post you a URL that contains an anecdotal account by Brigadier Devinder Singh (not Brig. Surinder Singh, this was the man responsible for clearing the Batalik sector). This can be an interesting discussion.

I read up on Brig. Devinder Singh last night and the story seemed tragic until he was rightfully recognized, please do share the article when you can as I'm eager to learn more. :)
 

Joe Shearer

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I read up on Brig. Devinder Singh last night and the story seemed tragic until he was rightfully recognized, please do share the article when you can as I'm eager to learn more. :)
It was Surinder Singh, who was handling the central Kargil and Dras sectors, who got shafted, Devinder, doing Batalik, got away with glancing injuries. The top four - Malik, Chief of Army Staff, H. M. Khanna, Northern Army Commander (or was it then the Western Army? Don't remember), Krishan Pal, Corps Commander, and V. K. Budhwar, Division Commander of 8th Div., really put up a shit show, and 528 Indian jawans and officers died because of them.

More later.
 

Nilgiri

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@Smoke You likely already know this but forums can get pretty confrontational on sensitive topics.

In transient period (especially when you are new to a place), please do ignore those you need to, while cultivating a good debate/discussion with those you prefer like Joe here who is a vast pool of knowledge.

But always try to leave door open for a later time to come around and discuss maybe other topics with those that upset you earlier.

I have seen many times....members get off on wrong foot many times on hot button topic and later patch up down the road and avoid discussion on things they know they clash on (and maybe put those for an even later time if needed)....all it required was passage of time and other topics popping up.

Hope you bring folks here that like to have more restrained and civil atmosphere for discussion on all matter of topics of interest.
 

Nilgiri

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Credit to @Joe Shearer for passing this on to me:

The Meghna Crossing (Maj Chandrakant Singh, VrC):

A similar account given by same author:

Video format again with the author

Larger channel I will be perusing over time, some interesting stuff there:

@Jackdaws @Afif @Gessler @Marlii et al.
 

Joe Shearer

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Credit to @Joe Shearer for passing this on to me:

The Meghna Crossing (Maj Chandrakant Singh, VrC):

A similar account given by same author:

Video format again with the author

Larger channel I will be perusing over time, some interesting stuff there:

@Jackdaws @Afif @Gessler @Marlii et al.
One cannot but be impressed by what happens at higher echelons.

From the Major's account, we get an impression of the relative burden taken up by 311 Brigade under Brigadier Mishra, and of 73 Brigade. Repeatedly, 73 Brigade was found wanting, its Brigade Commander never able to get on top of the situation because he, like the Duke of Plaza Toro, led from the back, and 311 Brigade landed up doing all the work, because their Divisional Commander did not get time during the fast moving action to remove his non-functioning Brigadier.

That Brigadier went to reach 3 star rank, although his dismal performance was clear to all, including himself, and he bailed out on grounds of a non-existent family emergency once everybody reached Dhaka.

The other was the contrasting fate of Sagat Singh, IV Corps Corps Commander, who was the most effective leader of the three and a half columns selected to advance into East Pakistan. He did not progress further. There were complaints that his wife had been allowed to go to the front, after Dhaka fell. In contrast, Tappy Raina, a very brave soldier, and an officer injured in battle earlier, made a hash of the advance of his Corps, II Corps. Tajammul Husain Malik, the officer opposing II Corps, fought his vastly superior opponents to a standstill. If I remember correctly, he was the only Pakistani officer serving in East Pakistan in 1971 who subsequent to repatriation got a promotion.

While Sagat Singh got nowhere, Tappy Raina became Chief of Army Staff.

Che sera, sera.
 

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