TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Afif]

These theoretical RCS discussions may be valid over the ocean and long distances. I would like to remind you that Turkish and Greek air forces have been dogfighting over 6 miles for more than 40 years. There is not only CAP or patrol flights have radars; As soon as the planes enter international airspace (even in their own airspace), they enter a system that has a common combat tactical network, from radars in mountains, valleys, coastal surveillance positions to airborne early warning systems, which all are operate on the air tactical picture, scanning the airspace from dozens of different angles.

The F-35's ability to strike undetected over the Aegean is engagement without leaving Greek airspace. In this type of encounter, the country with greater geographical depth is still in the dominant position. The only thing Greece can do against Turkiye is to launch a surprise attack and hold out for the first 24/48 hours until the US intervenes. In this case, the issue moves from comparing two aircraft in a laboratory environment to the entire combat command and control network again. The problem is that if the Greeks launch such an attack, their planes may not find a base to land. Maybe that's why they give a lot of special privileged bases to the US in GR lands.

I agree with Türkiye having the advantage with greater geographical depth. But in most of these discussions, we almost presupposes only Türkiye is truly capable of networking centric warfare. Greek military, not so much. However, they are also in NATO and benefits immensely from multinational integration of sensors, shooters and decision makers during joint exercises. which requires highly network centric C4 approach to begin with.

And they do have 6x patriot batteries, judging from their performance in Ukraine against various types of BM & CM, they are likely to withstand the initial waves of missile strikes. Hence, those F-35s may have few bases to return to. Besides, they are increasingly experimenting the concept of keeping F-35's operational from airstrip and highways. Thus, I think these scenarios may require more complex solutions than a large wave of missile & loitering ammunition strikes. (I.e. SEAD/DEAD for example)

 

[DBdev]

F 35 has a RCS of 0.005 m^2. It will spot you before you spot it. And it doesn't need to come close to you to hit you. IRST's limit is just 100 km, and Kizilelma is subsonic, so there is not enough speed to close the gap with a jet that can super cruise.

These are AESA radar detection distances of 2 opposing fighters based on the frontal RCS
Here it looks like we have to wait until we get as close as 18km. But IRST is 100+ km and it
can cue our AESA radar to focus beams on that spot. Entire force of AESA radar focused
on 1 tiny spot like laser could give a radar lock. Or even without a radar lock, missile with IR
seeker could be fired close to that area WITHOUT a lock until it finds said target. Periodic
coordinate updates are also possible. Red Flag and 1 billion chats about oh the great F35
never mentions that if you can see it by zooming in with your optics, you also can hit it.

 

[uçuyorum]

Don't forget traditional IRST is one thing but DAS and sensor fusion of F35 is an unknown quantity.

 

[DBdev]

Don't forget traditional IRST is one thing but DAS and sensor fusion of F35 is an unknown quantity.

DAS system has a much shorter range than IRST, typically less than 10 km.

Making IRST on Kizilelma work with it's AESA radar is sensor fusion too.

It could help US defeat F-35 just like I showed you above.
Sensor fusion, DAS, laser pod, other DIRCM, low RCS are not some magical things that only
holly F-35 and Americans can have and benefit from.

In this scenario above better IRST could win, not smaller RCS.
RCS doesn't even matter that much because our AESA radar doesn't even have to be active for us to see the F-35.

All we must have is more modern IRST with longer range IR zoom, better IR resolution.
Very doable thanks to IR abilities of Aselsan. Perhaps our IRST system end up being 5x bigger as a result.
Who cares we weren't going to win against F35 by being compact and lower RCS anyway.

Sadly our current IR systems aren't better than anyone's. But they sure can be.

 

[Afif]

These are AESA radar detection distances of 2 opposing fighters based on the frontal RCS
Here it looks like we have to wait until we get as close as 18km. But IRST is 100+ km and it
can cue our AESA radar to focus beams on that spot. Entire force of AESA radar focused
on 1 tiny spot like laser could give a radar lock. Or even without a radar lock, missile with IR
seeker could be fired close to that area WITHOUT a lock until it finds said target. Periodic
coordinate updates are also possible. Red Flag and 1 billion chats about oh the great F35
never mentions that if you can see it by zooming in with your optics, you also can hit it.

In operational environment, an IRST won't see an F-35 beyond 50km in head to head engagement. F-35 is also optimized for LO in IR spectrum.

Also, it doesn't matter if AESA radar focus a very narrow Beam cued by other sensor. It doesn't practically increase the detection range by much.

And you can't fire a missile in general direction hoping it will get a lock. Chances of successful hit in this way are very slim to none.

DAS system has a much shorter range than IRST, typically less than 10 km

What?

"The F-35's DAS was flown in military operational exercises in 2011, has demonstrated the ability to detect and track ballistic missiles to ranges exceeding 800 miles (1,300 km), and has also demonstrated the ability to detect and track multiple small suborbital rockets simultaneously in flight."

AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And that was the older DAS, not even the current one.

 

[DBdev]

"In operational environment, an IRST won't see an F-35 beyond 50km in head to head engagement. "

Says who. Go watch a Nikon handheld camera zooming to individual valleys on the moon. Better IRST is possible as technology advances. OBVIOUSLY.

And you can't fire a missile in general direction hoping it will get a lock. Chances of successful hit in this way are very slim to none.

Sure you can. It is not hard at all. You have so many ways to guide your missile to your target without a lock. Radar lock is the most primitive way of doing the job.
https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-missile-lock-on-to-its-target

"ballistic missiles "

Those you can see with your own eyes from hundreds of kilometers. They are giant balls of fire not IR stealth, no afterburner Kizilelma

DAS is short range like your eyes but wider spectrum of light. Long range requires large mechanical optics, lenses like a telescope thus the need for a separate IRST on F35.

 

[Bozan]

Full unnamed quote:
"Our Eurofighter demand continues"

In response to a question on whether Turkey's demand for the Eurofighter continues, ministry sources said, "Our demand continues. The positive approach of Germany, one of the consortium countries, is expected. Discussions and studies are ongoing."

"F-16 tedariki ve modernizasyonu konusu herhangi bir şarta bağlı değil"

ABD’den talep edilen F-16'la ilgili onay süreci 26 Ocak'ta başladı. Milli Savunma Bakanlığı kaynakları, Yunanistan kaynaklı haber sitelerindeki iddiaları yalanladı, "F-16 tedariki ve modernizasyonu konusu herhangi bir şarta bağlı değildir" açıklamasını yaptı.

www.trthaber.com

Do the Eurofighters fulfil different roles to F-16?

Otherwise this means that government thinks F-16 is unlikely

 

[uçuyorum]

Do the Eurofighters fulfil different roles to F-16?

Otherwise this means that government thinks F-16 is unlikely

Eurofighter has superior characteristics to F16 in certain ways rather than different roles, but being a twin engine, high thrust to weight ratio fighter should make it particularly good for A2A. Plus Tranche 4 is supposed to have real modern radar and avionics.

 

[Afif]

Sure you can. It is not hard at all. You have so many ways to guide your missile to your target without a lock. Radar lock is the most primitive way of doing the job.
https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-missile-lock-on-to-its-target

That answer is incrediblely misleading in its conclusion.

"But, how does the missile know how close to the target it is?”

It does not need to know that. The missile only needs to know in which direction to go, and then it keeps going, and going, and going, until it either hits the target or runs out of momentum and can go no further."

Again, false. As I said, you can't fire a missile in general direction hoping it will get a lock. Chances of successful hit in this way are very slim to none.

Weapon-quality track with accurate kinematics of the target is essential for effective interception.

 

[DBdev]

That answer is incrediblely misleading in its conclusion.

"But, how does the missile know how close to the target it is?”

It does not need to know that. The missile only needs to know in which direction to go, and then it keeps going, and going, and going, until it either hits the target or runs out of momentum and can go no further."

Again, false. As I said, you can't fire a missile in general direction hoping it will get a lock. Chances of successful hit in this way are very slim to none.

Weapon-quality track with accurate kinematics of the target is essential for effective interception.

I haven't read the entire answer. But DUH it will EVENTUALLY see the F35 with its own damn IR seeker when it gets close. Mid course RF route corrections from the source also exist you know. Why am I even telling you that? Isn't that obvious?

 

[Huelague]

Can we produce the whole F-16, except the engine, at TAI facility?

 

[Sanchez]

it will EVENTUALLY see the F35 with its own damn IR seeker when it gets close

At that point F-35 will have already killed the bird in question tho.

 

[YeşilVatan]

At that point F-35 will have already killed the bird in question tho.

I don't think it will play out like that in a crowded wartime Aegean airspace. It will be much more chaos than my brain can handle, missiles, AA batteries, UAVs, F-16s, Rafales, Ballistic missiles... I have no idea what will happen but that kind of 'noisy' environment can either hinder or enhance performance of the F-35s.

 

[DBdev]

At that point F-35 will have already killed the bird in question tho.

Yes that is why Kizilelma desperately needs, DIRCM as powerful as it's systems allows and DAS for situational awareness against incoming missile and not getting lost during following 9G maneuvers while firing up chaff and flare. Again Red Flag never tests these more critical counter missile parts. They just want you to believe if you get fired upon by an F35 you just die. It is never that simple.

Also Aselsan DAS + IRST+ Destructive laser pod(s) in case of more powerful engine F-16 Özgür. This lack of innovation we have is more dangerous than F35 itself.

 

[RMZN]

Can someone explain why Turkey opted not to develop a domestic replacement for the F-16? The recent deal with the USA seems disadvantageous and basically ripped off. I understand Turkey's commitment to replacing imported weapons and platforms with domestic ones, and they're making great progress. But why the rush for KAAN? Are they planning to replace the entire Turkish Air Force with KAAN and the Loyal Wingman Kizilelma, with the F-16 as supplementary? Operating a fleet of fifth-gen platforms exclusively could prove costly. Are there any future plans regarding this?

The TFX project was originally intended to be the replacement for the F-16. Replacing all F-16s with KAAN doesnt seem plausible from an economic standpoint, thats why the Özgür project is a thing and hopefully we will see an armed version of Hürjet as well. The Loyal Wingman for KAAN will most likely be a more advanced iteration of the current Anka 3 version.

 

[Nutuk]

The TFX project was originally intended to be the replacement for the F-16. Replacing all F-16s with KAAN doesnt seem plausible from an economic standpoint, thats why the Özgür project is a thing and hopefully we will see an armed version of Hürjet as well. The Loyal Wingman for KAAN will most likely be a more advanced iteration of the current Anka 3 version.

Why?

If we can afford 40 new F16, 40 new EF2000, why would we not be able to afford replacing all F16's?

First replacements will be for 40 F16 blk 30, than 2 batches to replace blk 40's and again several years later the blk 50's

Besides main cost of fighter jets are not the initial purchase price, but all the needed missiles, upgrades, spares and maintenance that all have to be sourced from a foreign country.

In the bigger picture a national fighter will be much less expensive, and exponentially more effective since spares, maintenance, missile load are all sourced locally

 

[uçuyorum]

Why?

If we can afford 40 new F16, 40 new EF2000, why would we not be able to afford replacing all F16's?

First replacements will be for 40 F16 blk 30, than 2 batches to replace blk 40's and again several years later the blk 50's

Besides main cost of fighter jets are not the initial purchase price, but all the needed missiles, upgrades, spares and maintenance that all have to be sourced from a foreign country.

In the bigger picture a national fighter will be much less expensive, and exponentially more effective since spares, maintenance, missile load are all sourced locally

KAAN is a really big and really sophisticated platform. It won't be cheap. Even the fuel consumption would be double that of F16, and that adds up to several hundred million usd a year.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

KAAN is a really big and really sophisticated platform. It won't be cheap. Even the fuel consumption would be double that of F16, and that adds up to several hundred million usd a year.

Guess what, giving the Country the proper tools to defend itself against anyone doesn't come with a cheap price tag. Expensive or not, KAAN will/must be bought a lot.

 

[RMZN]

Why?

If we can afford 40 new F16, 40 new EF2000, why would we not be able to afford replacing all F16's?

First replacements will be for 40 F16 blk 30, than 2 batches to replace blk 40's and again several years later the blk 50's

Besides main cost of fighter jets are not the initial purchase price, but all the needed missiles, upgrades, spares and maintenance that all have to be sourced from a foreign country.

In the bigger picture a national fighter will be much less expensive, and exponentially more effective since spares, maintenance, missile load are all sourced locally

Because we not only need to produce an entirely new and untested platform but also maintain it. Even the US decided to prolong the use of their F-16s, because its simply a much more cost-efficient workhorse than the F-35. Furthermore, they are also planning on buying new F-15s.

 

[uçuyorum]

Guess what, giving the Country the proper tools to defend itself against anyone doesn't come with a cheap price tag. Expensive or not, KAAN will/must be bought a lot.

Do you really need KAAN for operations on terror?