Indonesia Indonesian Navy, Tentara Nasional Indonesia-Angkatan Laut (TNI-AL)

[Anmdt]

By exploiting the so-called "dual-use technology", for one:

German technology found in China's warships: report – DW – 11/06/2021

Engines developed in Germany can evade export control bans due to their status as a so-called dual-use technology, a German media investigation has revealed.

www.dw.com

If - God forbid - this happens, we will probably see that the publicized specs will only vaguely mention the engine, or that it will say ‘Chinese-made engine’ on paper.

I am not an expert on the engines but to my knowledge submarine diesel engines (of the gen-sets) used to have specially designed parts and accessories that enables to operate with less noise emissions and in different inlet-outlet pressure conditions. However, in latest years MTU has began to recommend and adapted a commonly utilized surface ship gen-set diesel engine for submarines, again with customization (should be heavy to my understanding).

The latter one is what china may purchase under dual use scheme (eventhough the genset is military version, it has a commercial variant), but for the parts which enable engine to be suitable for submarine applications will still be subjected to strict regulations. Black market options always exist though.

But for the S26T, China used to offer their locally made engine (likely a variant of a reverse engineered commercial engine that used to be license produced, and converted for submarine) but it has performed poorly, possibly not only for noise levels but also the bulk performance. It has been more than a decade since then and through brute force China must have proceeded in the technology and know-how of the submarine diesel engines.

I am not afraid or questioning of what China might have had in the future, i am more afraid of what they had poorly 10 years ago and might have significantly matured and developed it into something that we shouldn't ridicule.

 

[Soman45]

Really?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1809154934585319558

Is there any big port like that in Morowali? i doubt it

 

[FPXAllen]

I am not an expert on the engines but to my knowledge submarine diesel engines (of the gen-sets) used to have specially designed parts and accessories that enables to operate with less noise emissions and in different inlet-outlet pressure conditions. However, in latest years MTU has began to recommend and adapted a commonly utilized surface ship gen-set diesel engine for submarines, again with customization (should be heavy to my understanding).

The latter one is what china may purchase under dual use scheme (eventhough the genset is military version, it has a commercial variant), but for the parts which enable engine to be suitable for submarine applications will still be subjected to strict regulations. Black market options always exist though.

But for the S26T, China used to offer their locally made engine (likely a variant of a reverse engineered commercial engine that used to be license produced, and converted for submarine) but it has performed poorly, possibly not only for noise levels but also the bulk performance. It has been more than a decade since then and through brute force China must have proceeded in the technology and know-how of the submarine diesel engines.

I am not afraid or questioning of what China might have had in the future, i am more afraid of what they had poorly 10 years ago and might have significantly matured and developed it into something that we shouldn't ridicule.

I may have worded it poorly, but I didn't mean to ridicule Chinese technological progress with my post. Regarding the CHD620 engine, if I recall correctly, the Royal Thai Navy has already tested it after China offered to replace the MTU engine as originally specified in the contract. The RTN found it less than satisfactory.

What still puzzles me is that the Chinese must have already known that they would be refused permission to buy and use the German-made engine in their submarine design even before the contract was signed, but they still promised it to the RTN nevertheless.

 

[Anmdt]

I may have worded it poorly, but I didn't mean to ridicule Chinese technological progress with my post. Regarding the CHD620 engine, if I recall correctly, the Royal Thai Navy has already tested it after China offered to replace the MTU engine as originally specified in the contract. The RTN found it less than satisfactory.

What still puzzles me is that the Chinese must have already known that they would be refused permission to buy and use the German-made engine in their submarine design even before the contract was signed, but they still promised it to the RTN nevertheless.

It wasn't to you mate, people commonly have a prejudice for chinese military systems (and they are right to a point) but they do continously improve the products and i had to tell that.

While sources report CHD620 to be license produced MTU396 series engine, i highly doubt this. The outcome of the test results (as far as known from the leaked information) conducted by RTN also indicates it wasn't likely leaked but commercial engines withdrawn through the MTU partner in China. They have picked an identical engine that is utilized in yachts and other commercial vessels and reverse engineered remaining components and tuning.

Well this is how contracts works it is often played by the both ends of the contract. One promises something they may likely can't deliver then point out the force majeure and 'would you like this product instead'. It is deliberately done that way or China simply thought 'i might get it pass anyway'. You will be surprised at this (or possinby not) but there comes a time when a country's acquisition agency does not read the contract thoroughly. I think at that case Chinese company was barely fined for delays or underperforming.

 

[FPXAllen]

One promises something they may likely can't deliver then point out the force majeure and 'would you like this product instead'.

The ol' bait n' switch tactic but with state actors,... I guess I'm still naive since I used to think that such unethical conducts are way below the level of G2G deals.

You will be surprised at this (or possinby not) but there comes a time when a country's acquisition agency does not read the contract thoroughly.

Ah yes. I believe we have experienced this more than once ourselves.

 

[Lordimperator]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1811329244649152605

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1811329244649152605

Indonesia holds second meeting with CSSC on S26T submarine as China sweetens deal with destroyer

Officials from China State Shipbuilding Corporation (CSSC) have attended a second meeting with the Indonesian Ministry of Defense (MoD) to discuss the former's offer of...

www.janes.com

 

[NEKO]

Why not offer the submarine to Pakistan?

 

[Lordimperator]

Why not offer the submarine to Pakistan?

Like the rumour on the x, its only stimulus for the type 52

 

[Umigami]

Let's see what Prabowo will do

 

[Umigami]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1811673996787863740

 

[satria]

TNI AL launches domestically made patrol boat to strengthen security

TNI AL luncurkan kapal patroli buatan dalam negeri perkuat keamanan

TNI Angkatan Laut meluncurkan dua unit kapal perang bertipe patroli buatan dalam negeri di Kabupaten Serang, Banten, Jumat, untuk memperkuat keamanan ...

www.antaranews.com

More PC 60

 

[satria]

Latihan Operasi Laut Aspek Udara 2024​

 

[satria]

KRI Sembilang dan KRI Spica

KRI Pollux danKRI Rgel

source KERIS Reborn

 

[Umigami]

......the Turkification of Indonesian warships seems to be the Preconditional or Familirization for the Larger Indonesian Project in the future. What's that? Rumors on social media said that Indonesia would work together with Turkey to develop destroyer warships. In the Milgem project, Türkiye has included the plan to build eight TF-2000 destroyers.

Turkifikasi Kapal Perang Indonesia

Independensi Turki dalam mengembangkan berbagai alutsista, hingga transaksi yang dilakukan tidak rawan embargo, seperti lazimnya dilakukan Amerika Serikat TURKI... | Halaman Lengkap

nasional.sindonews.com

 

[NEKO]

I hope the defence cooperation between ID and TR increase during Prabs era.