TR Propulsion Systems

[Zafer]

General Electric is working on a very efficient 3000 HP turboshaft engine that uses ceramic maxris composite and eutectic materials. Tei is working on these materials but still does not have the knowledge to use them in an engine, so it will not be very efficient for Tei to produce a 3000 HP engine.

TEI's engine doesn't need to be cutting edge, it is OK if it is even comparable to GE's existing engine which I guess there isn't one in that power class. Who even needs to compare ones own work to somebody else's foreign work.

 

[byzero]

Ukraine has a 2500 HP turboshaft engine. I think it is not difficult to produce it in Turkey with a license agreement. In fact, with the technological capabilities it has, it can increase the power of this engine by 30.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Ukraine has a 2500 HP turboshaft engine. I think it is not difficult to produce it in Turkey with a license agreement. In fact, with the technological capabilities it has, it can increase the power of this engine by 30.

It would make it more intelligible if in your post you clarified which “it” you are talking about.
Iam guessing that you mean, with the technological capability of Turkey, we can even increase power to 3000HP ???

We have discussed these issues in previous pages many times over. The so called 2500HP Ukranian engine, if memory serves, doesn’t even have FADEC. Also it is far from providing the necessary power our armed forces are expecting. The technology it uses is Soviet era and nowhere near that is commensurate with a modern helicopter like T929. Besides with all the recent bombing the Ukranian factory is not in a position to supply any engines.

TEI already produces a 2000HP class engine under license, namely, T700TEI700D . This is the Turkish version of the famous T700 produced by GE. Same engine has a version with 3000HP output power. There is a clause in our license agreement that allows us to make changes to the engine with GE’s consent. All we have to do is to activate that clause and of course prolong the license agreement.

Alternatively if we can allocate financial, and more importantly, Human Resources to the project; we can then design and produce this engine ourselves. But that will take in excess of 6 years before it can be flying the serial production helicopters.

 

[byzero]

We are interpreting the issue technically, but if Turkey has the chance to produce advanced US-made engines under license for domestic attack helicopters, the decision to buy old-tech turboshaft engines from Ukraine is not a technical choice, but a political one. The SSB and other authorities probably think that the US Congress will make a problem.

 

[Sanchez]

TEI already produces a 2000HP class engine under license, namely, T700TEI700D . This is the Turkish version of the famous T700 produced by GE. Same engine has a version with 3000HP output power. There is a clause in our license agreement that allows us to make changes to the engine with GE’s consent. All we have to do is to activate that clause and of course prolong the license agreement.

This would mean linking two of our helicopter projects to US. And the chance of this being accepted is low, meanwhile it's not even clear that we will get to build all the ordered T70s as its license is yet to be extended.

 

[boredaf]

meanwhile it's not even clear that we will get to build all the ordered T70s as its license is yet to be extended.

That has been such a big mistake, wasting the license like this. What number were we at, not even half unless I'm mistaken?

 

[Sanchez]

That has been such a big mistake, wasting the license like this. What number were we at, not even half unless I'm mistaken?

It's not like they played around. Aselsan's avionics suite took years to mature, which led to the delay in production start. That's why gendarme got S70i's from PZL.

Unsure about latest numbers but I think it should be at about 40+ by the year's end, which is presumably when the license ends. Order was for 109.

 

[Saithan]

I am not sure if the we'd be able to get any more license production as things are now. and getting a license build agreement with Ukraine is likely not going to be easy either.

If a third country that is extremely friendly with Türkiye were to be used as a middle ground then it might be useful, but to be realistic I don't think any such thing will happen as the world is atm, so we need to get our own engines out there working it's ass off while we gain knowledge and real life data and 10-20 is not enough we need hundreds/thousands of our own engine to start building that database of knowledge.

 

[Sanchez]

I am not sure if the we'd be able to get any more license production as things are now. and getting a license build agreement with Ukraine is likely not going to be easy either.

If a third country that is extremely friendly with Türkiye were to be used as a middle ground then it might be useful, but to be realistic I don't think any such thing will happen as the world is atm, so we need to get our own engines out there working it's ass off while we gain knowledge and real life data and 10-20 is not enough we need hundreds/thousands of our own engine to start building that database of knowledge.

We already do, it takes time and lots of manhours. You can't rush these things but we still need new platforms and airframes. T625 is still in testing with its foreign engines, TS1400 is not yet ready and that thing has been in development since 2017.

 

[Zoth]

What baffles me since a very long time is that what we are going to do if we fail to acquire more F110 Engines for Kaan until we manage to develop TF-35000 into operational state?

We have some alternatives(WS10, WS15, AL41/51) but i really doubt that we will try to get those unless we get really cornered.

 

[somegoodusername]

What baffles me since a very long time is that what we are going to do if we fail to acquire more F110 Engines for Kaan until we manage to develop TF-35000 into operational state?

If Turkish-American relations falls back to that level, you won't have time to talk about Kaan and F-110 engines. In my opinions that F-110 engines are more secure even than the Hürjet's F-404 engines.

 

[hugh]

If Turkish-American relations falls back to that level, you won't have time to talk about Kaan and F-110 engines. In my opinions that F-110 engines are more secure even than the Hürjet's F-404 engines.

It's highly doubtful that we could get those engines(F110s) without they drag us through the mud first. In fact, the chance of them denying us those engines is not below 50% in my opinion. We will be in a very rude awakening.

 

[Zoth]

It's highly doubtful that we could get those engines(F110s) without they drag us through the mud first. In fact, the chance of them denying us those engines is not below 50% in my opinion. We will be in a very rude awakening.

I also think similarly, which it was my main question, i wonder what we are going to do if USA denies us those engines.

 

[hugh]

I also think similarly, which it was my main question, i wonder what we are going to do if USA denies us those engines.

For the least, we'd say "auf wiedersehen" to the US soldiers in Incirlik and NATO membership would be put in question.

 

[Zoth]

For the least, we'd say "auf wiedersehen" to the US soldiers in Incirlik and NATO membership would be put in question.

I personally think we may try to get the WS-15 engine but the question is, would China give us that very advanced engine? Maybe if the ties with USA gets torn so badly that they may consider it.

Another option is EJ-200 would the Germans let us produce and use that engine in our Kaan?

In worst case scenario where we end up not getting any engines, Kaan may be even delayed to 2032.

 

[TR_123456]

@Zoth ,@hugh

The US cant take the risk of losing Türkiye,especially now.
Some delays maybe but nothing more.

 

[hugh]

I personally think we may try to get the WS-15 engine but the question is, would China give us that very advanced engine? Maybe if the ties with USA gets torn so badly that they may consider it.

Another option is EJ-200 would the Germans let us produce and use that engine in our Kaan?

In worst case scenario where we end up not getting any engines, Kaan may be even delayed to 2032.

EJ-200 is not option. It's too weak for KAAN. And assuming the Chinese gave us their engines(which they wouldn't for the obvious reasons), it still wouldn't remedy our predicament. Engines are not simple plug and play devices. An aircraft is designed and built around an engine. KAAN's development would be in advanced stage and such a drastic change could require design alterations that could delay the program for many years.

I guess, if the push comes to shove, we could use our spare engines and cannibalize some F16s to fly a squadron of KAAN to be able to bring the aircraft to FOC around 2035 when the TF35K catches up the aircraft(the production version of it, not the prototypes). In the meantime, we have to field many(quantity-wise) MRBMs for deterrence and should have an indigenous anti-ballistic SAM solution.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

I think Türkiye needs a similar stopgap that Iran uses, which means a shit ton of ballistic Missiles till we get this fu..... engine problem fixed. All this begging for engines and everyone playing good cop bad cop is pissing me off.

Build thousands of BM, that's the most realistic stopgap we can have till KAAN is out. They won't give us F16, F16 Kits, EF, F35 etc.

 

[hugh]

@Zoth ,@hugh

The US cant take the risk of losing Türkiye,especially now.
Some delays maybe but nothing more.

We can't put our hopes on the prevalence of the rational faculties of the US. We have to assume the worst and be prepared to the best of our abilities.

 

[Kartal1]

The situation currently is such that even if we wanted there's really nothing we can do about it. It is a fact that the prototypes and the first batch of 20 KAAN will fly with US made F110 engines and by the looks there are no other viable alternatives. According to Ismail Demir there are three alternatives, talking about a Japanese, Russian and Chinese engines. Well, for me these alternatives are a no go.

We already received the engines for three prototypes and we will continue with them. If by any chance the US sabotages the project by not delivering more engines then we should rely solely on ourselves.

There's also another important thing. Apart from the bilateral relations between Turkiye and the US this whole defence industry and military cooperation issue should be viewed within the frame of NATO's southern flank and our Navy and Air Force should be capable enough to deter any threats. As long as the dialogue with Greece is okay without serious escalations I think that the US view on possible military equipment sales to Turkiye will only improve with time. The US is way more open to cooperation with Turkiye than the EU leaders, mainly Germany and France.