Liu Xiaobo – the almost forgotten hero of Tiananmen Square | DW Documentary

[Nilgiri]

Liu Xiaobo was a key figure of the Tiananmen uprising, and was awarded the 2010 Nobel Peace Prize. Yet few in China know his name, as the government continues to try to erase him from collective memory.

Liu Xiaobo was a human rights hero and intellectual who kept watch at Tiananmen Square in 1989 to protect protestors from encroaching soldiers. In 2008 he wrote the Charter 08, a pro-democracy charter that led to his arrest.

When he was awarded the Nobel peace Prize in 2010 while in prison, Liu Xiaobo became China’s Nelson Mandela or Václav Havel. Yet many Chinese do not know much about him. This documentary tells the exceptional story of Liu Xiaobo, a man who valued freedom, who courageously spoke the truth, and never considered going into exile to save himself. He wanted to stay in China, and he did so until the end.

But he never had a chance to address the Chinese public. Before Liu Xiaobo died in 2017, he had officially gained medical parole, but remained under guard even in hospital, and was kept silent. To this day, Beijing continues to try to erase his name from collective memory.

Yet Liu Xiaobo is one of the great figures in the history of China and the world.　

This film tells Liu Xiaobo’s legacy. It includes interviews with those closest to him, such as his wife Liu Xia, as well as a long interview Liu Xiaobo delivered before his arrest. This interview can be described as his own political legacy.

It was unearthed while searching through archives for this documentary by French journalist Pierre Haski, who met Liu Xiaobo regularly during his time as a China correspondent.

 

[xizhimen]

The consensus of the Chinese public now is that if those people won, China would be like former USSR, break up and fall into decades long chaos. The result will be much worse than USSR cause USSR was a rich super power back then but China a dirt poor third world Shole.

 

[Saithan]

The consensus of the Chinese public now is that if those people won, China would be like former USSR, break up and fall into decades long chaos. The result will be much worse than USSR cause USSR was a rich super power back then but China a dirt poor third world Shole.

I believe that is the result of CCP governance.

But it's not easy to manage a nation of 1+ billion ppl. You'd either succeed or you'd have been divided into smaller nations. Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Canton, Mandarin.

I read a recent article that CCP has started "weeding" out Inner Mongolias culture. That is the logical next step in erasing non-Han Chinese culture when you have firm control.

 

[xizhimen]

But it's not easy to manage a nation of 1+ billion ppl. You'd either succeed or you'd have been divided into smaller nations. Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Canton, Mandarin.

I read a recent article that CCP has started "weeding" out Inner Mongolias culture. That is the logical next step in erasing non-Han Chinese culture when you have firm control.

Canton is Guangdong's old name, it's a province of almost 100% Han Chinese. Mandarin is the name of the standard Chinese language, not a province or race.

Ethnic Han Chinese account for around 92% of the whole Chinese population and are the actual majority in every single Chinese province. China is almost like a nation state like her east Asian neighbors Korea and Japan, so ethnic problem is not a major threat to China, the west tries to hype it up out of proportion but in reality it is never a big concern in China.

 

[Saithan]

Canton is Guangdong's old name, it's a province of almost 100% Han Chinese. Mandarin is the name of the standard Chinese language, not a province or race.

Ethnic Han Chinese account for around 92% of the whole Chinese population and are the actual majority in every single Chinese province. China is almost like a nation state like her east Asian neighbors Korea and Japan, so ethnic problem is not a major threat to China, the west tries to hype it up out of proportion but in reality it is never a big concern in China.

My mistake. I thought Canton (language) was spoken in southern China thus I assumed it would be more liable separate from Northern China where Mandarin is more prevalent.

Also let's not forget CCP did move millions of people to different provinces to establish Han majority. Such as Xinjiang, and I think Himalaya is also hit similarly.

According to Amnesty International, before the occupation of East Turkistan by China in 1949, Chinese population constituted only 2 per cent of the total populace. Which included the invading army, the police, the colonial government officials and their family members. There were no Chinese farmers or herdsmen living in East Turkistan.

How China changed demography of East Turkistan now referred to as ‘Xinjiang’

China prefers to call East Turkistan by its colonial name ‘Xinjiang’ as part of well strategized propaganda.

zeenews.india.com

My point was the current China is the product of CCP work, and it's like a grand plan that CCP is implementing. It may take a 100 years, or not, but at the end of it all of current China will have only Han culture left, and everything else will be wiped out.

IMO brilliant plan and perfect example of what State policy should be, if Xi should go crazy and try to deviate from it too much, CCP would remove him.

 

[xizhimen]

My mistake. I thought Canton (language) was spoken in southern China thus I assumed it would be more liable separate from Northern China where Mandarin is more prevalent.

Also let's not forget CCP did move millions of people to different provinces to establish Han majority. Such as Xinjiang, and I think Himalaya is also hit similarly.

Probably, time always changes he demographic of a country or region, look at US, English language became predominant and you don't see many native American Indians, all happened within 200 years.

 

[xizhimen]

How China changed demography of East Turkistan now referred to as ‘Xinjiang’

China prefers to call East Turkistan by its colonial name ‘Xinjiang’ as part of well strategized propaganda.

zeenews.india.com

The demograhic in Xinjiang changed many times over the history, different racial groups come and go in this region connection the east with the west. the latest major change happened around 300 years ago（1755 AD） when Qing troops decimated Dzoungar Mongols and genocided their local population in Xinjiang, allowing ethnic groups from neighboring regions to move into the vacated lands.

The name Xinjiang was given by Qing dynasty around 200 years ago, it's not a new name.

Dzungar genocide​

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Dzungar genocide was the mass extermination of the Mongol Dzungar people, at the hands of the Qing dynasty.The Qianlong Emperor ordered the genocide due to the rebellion in 1755 by Dzungar leader Amursana against Qing rule, after the dynasty first conquered the Dzungar Khanate with Amursana's support. The genocide was perpetrated by Manchu generals of the Qing army sent to crush the Dzungars, supported by Uyghur allies and vassals due to the Uyghur revolt against Dzungar rule.

The Dzungar Khanate was a confederation of several Tibetan Buddhist Oirat Mongol tribes that emerged in the early 17th century, and the last great nomadic empire in Asia. Some scholars estimate that about 80% of the Dzungar population, or around 500,000 to 800,000 people, were killed by a combination of warfare and disease during or after the Qing conquest in 1755–1757. After wiping out the native population of Dzungaria, the Qing government then resettled Han, Hui, Uyghur, and Xibe people on state farms in Dzungaria along with Manchu Bannermen to repopulate the area.

 

[Nilgiri]

I believe that is the result of CCP governance.

But it's not easy to manage a nation of 1+ billion ppl. You'd either succeed or you'd have been divided into smaller nations. Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Canton, Mandarin.

I read a recent article that CCP has started "weeding" out Inner Mongolias culture. That is the logical next step in erasing non-Han Chinese culture when you have firm control.

Our friend is correct about Cantonese (gwong dong hwa) people are Han. I know the cantonese language fairly well (spoken). There is no real issue among guangdong folks w.r.t mainland (esp culturally), they are part and parcel of Han ethnicity with maybe the linguistic diversity (Shanghai is another language branch in Han Chinese language compared to Mandarin).

Hong Kong folks, lot of them have political issue with CCP, but that is very different to say a deep cultural division/fission. This is one of the things I mean is the difference between CCP/PRC and "China" in broader term.

It is very very different to Tibetans and Uighurs who are culturally very different to Han. In fact Tibetans themselves are split into Tibet (plateau) Tibetans and Qinghai Tibetans, latter are more Sinicized after all being in contact with Sichuan and interior Han folks for long history.

There are in general a few languages/dialects in the south that are markedly different and not very intelligible (esp in pristine form) to Mandarin speakers.....stuff like Hakka, Teochew, Hokkien and Fujian/Fuzhou dialects.

These are all Han people though like the guangdong folks, the earlier variance in original languages/cultures of southern china were absorbed quite early by Qin shi huang (whom "China" take its name after) but especially Wu Di and his southern campaigns of Han Dynasty. Official delineated split between Mandarin and Cantonese effectively was a later phenomenon which I will go into a bit later for my written series hopefully.

Suffice to say "China" historically is where the Chinese state/bureaucracy (whatever the highest representation form looked like didn't matter much after Qin+Han Dynasty establishment and policy) exerted sufficient control for long periods of time to have a largely unified culture.

This was not the case going westwards, control there was sporadic and never assured (no where close to the river plains "hearth" of China for example) and was only established in modern time by authoritarian nationstate reach by PRC. Hence why their languages for example, Turkic and Tibetan...are completely foreign to Han Chinese family (Tibetan is part of the very larger family but that is like saying Hindi and English are both Indo-European).

It is why you can say PRC is there, but China is not there (yet). Kind of reverse situation with say Taiwan and arguably HK, China is there....but PRC is not there. HK (where I grew up) is interesting case study on its own regarding this phenomenon.

@Joe Shearer

 

[Nilgiri]

The consensus of the Chinese public now is that if those people won, China would be like former USSR, break up and fall into decades long chaos. The result will be much worse than USSR cause USSR was a rich super power back then but China a dirt poor third world Shole.

"Consensus" of polish public during their communist autocrat regime was that Witold Pilecki was a traitor and anti-polish too.

Polish people know better now....much better. See what lifting the veil of uni-political repression does?

In the end the "consensus" used by autocrats and authoritarians means little past the paper they write it on.

Also please watch your language (even short forms), this is a serious thread.

 

[xizhimen]

"Consensus" of polish public during their communist autocrat regime was that Witold Pilecki was a traitor and anti-polish too.

Polish people know better now....much better. See what lifting the veil of uni-political repression does?

In the end the "consensus" used by autocrats and authoritarians means little past the paper they write it on.

Also please watch your language (even short forms), this is a serious thread.

I don't know the case in Poland but I think what happened there is a different and uncomparable with events in China due to cultural and other social backdrop.
Actually early after 六四, many people were pro those protesters but with the pass of time more and more people started to change their opinions seeing what happened in other parts of the world and the daily improvement of our own life in China, we take time to think and compare, not rush and jump to conclusions, and then we came to this consensus that the country was so lucky that those protesters didn't get their way.
This is calling " knowing better", actually the more we learned and western democracy, the more we appreciate our own system, cause we have moe knowledge and information to compare, each year, over 160 million Chinese travel overseas, the world biggest by a huge margin, China also has most students studying abroad.

Studying in the US makes the Chinese more appreciative of China​

Studying in the US makes the Chinese more appreciative of China

The number of Chinese students at US universities is at an all-time high.

qz.com

 

[Nilgiri]

I don't know the case in Poland but I think what happened there is a different and uncomparable with events in China due to cultural and other social backdrop.
Actually early after 六四, many people were pro those protesters but with the pass of time more and more people started to change their opinions seeing what happened in other parts of the world and the daily improvement of our own life in China, we take time to think and compare, not rush and jump to conclusions, and then we came to this consensus that the country was so lucky that those protesters didn't get their way.
This is calling " knowing better", actually the more we learned and western democracy, the more we appreciate our own system, cause we have moe knowledge and information to compare, each year, over 160 million Chinese travel overseas, the world biggest by a huge margin, China also has most students studying abroad.

Studying in the US makes the Chinese more appreciative of China​

Studying in the US makes the Chinese more appreciative of China

The number of Chinese students at US universities is at an all-time high.

qz.com

Problem is you don't understand what the concept and meaning of "consensus" is and what it requires in first place to establish and voice itself.

I could very well ask the Japanese authorities of the time what the consensus among the "Greater East Asian Prosperity sphere" was like for their actions and labelling of certain people and events. They would also say its very high...and cherry pick whomever or whatever as well to back it.

Authoritarian grip means consensus is a very silly thing to try assert in some debate. Things regarding the matter simply have not been disseminated and then gathered back for analysis in the scale and depth required.

 

[xizhimen]

Problem is you don't understand what the concept and meaning of "consensus" is and what it requires in first place to establish and voice itself.

I could very well ask the Japanese authorities of the time what the consensus among the "Greater East Asian Prosperity sphere" was like for their actions and labelling of certain people and events. They would also say its very high...and cherry pick whomever or whatever as well to back it.

Authoritarian grip means consensus is a very silly thing to try assert in some debate. Things regarding the matter simply have not been disseminated and then gathered back for analysis in the scale and depth required.

If Japan won WWII the consensus would be still high over their government, but they were defeated, If US lost WWII and being occupied by Japan, what do you think the consensus will be like in US?

The Chinese people's consensus about our country's development is not about wars and do not involve another country, it's purely of our own thoughts on our own country. it's the life we live and experience over the time, what make foreigners believe they have any say on our lives? Why didn't you Indians spend more time working on improving your own lives instead of talking about China's?

 

[Nilgiri]

If Japan won WWII the consensus would be still high over their government, but they were defeated, If US lost WWII and being occupied by Japan, what do you think the consensus will be like in US?

Thank you for proving my point about authoritarianism not being a fair consensus...with these hypotheticals.

You do a lot of the work for me, I appreciate it buddy.

The Chinese people's consensus about our country's development is not about wars and do not involve another country, it's purely of our own thoughts on our own country. it's the life we live and experience over the time, what make foreigners believe they have any say on our lives? Why didn't you Indians spend more time working on improving your own lives instead of talking about China's?

I don't speak for all Indians...so why are you asserting that with the "you" Indians? What do you really know of how Indian's spend most of their lives (esp w.r.t thinking or talking about China) and what do you know about me to think I am part of the typical to represent them accurately?

Neither do you speak for all Chinese (or even PRC'ers or even CCP'ers). I am talking individual to individual here...when I target a group, it is only those with the power to effect things in a country (in this case the CCP) or have commited crimes and suppression with that power....yet here you are yet again speaking toward my whole group of people.

Please understand that your collectivist posturing/asserting (with the typical lack of attention paid to collective responsibility - a huge hallmark of CCP and CCP fanboys in general) here only help prove my point here about Liu Xiabo and the various other brave rebels who dared to be contrarian.

This is the very reasoning behind your CCP venerating (and forcing its people to venerate) Mao, the person who lead to 30 million totally unnecessary starvation deaths in China in just few short years....eclipsing any death toll even the Japanese could dream of in their dark sojourn in your land.

It is quite unlike even what Soviets did with Stalin when they got the chance to break with his legacy right after his death.

People understand this basic phenomenon, they are on the path to understanding the CCP psyche at large.

 

[xizhimen]

Thank you for proving my point about authoritarianism not being a fair consensus...with these hypotheticals.

You do a lot of the work for me, I appreciate it buddy.

It's common sense, the history was written by the winners. When China becomes a winner over the west , the whole narrative will change, China is working on it and the west in general is declining.

 

[xizhimen]

Neither do you speak for all Chinese (or even PRC'ers or even CCP'ers). I am talking individual to individual here...when I target a group, it is only those with the power to effect things in a country (in this case the CCP) or have commited crimes and suppression with that power....yet here you are yet again speaking toward my whole group of people.

Please understand that your collectivist posturing/asserting (with the typical lack of attention paid to collective responsibility - a huge hallmark of CCP and CCP fanboys in general) here only help prove my point here about Liu Xiabo and the various other brave rebels who dared to be contrarian.

This is the very reasoning behind your CCP venerating (and forcing its people to venerate) Mao, the person who lead to 30 million totally unnecessary starvation deaths in China in just few short years....eclipsing any death toll even the Japanese could dream of in their dark sojourn in your land.

It is quite unlike even what Soviets did with Stalin when they got the chance to break with his legacy right after his death.

People understand this basic phenomenon, they are on the path to understanding the CCP psyche at large.

CCP achieved a lot of miracles in the past 4 decades, as for Mao, he was an exception cause he was the founder of PRC so he was exempt from China's leadership selection system, all leaders after him through this system served China very well, argubly the most competent and productive bunch in the worls.
Mao didn't kill 30 million or whatever number the west made up, many people did die from famine and natural disasters, whatever the cause of them is highly debatable but they were still famine and natural disasters, India and many part of world also experienced famines in the near history, but rarely they were blamed on some individuals by the western media.

 

[Nilgiri]

It's common sense, the history was written by the winners. When China becomes a winner over the west , the whole narrative will change, China is working on it and the west in general is declining.

Good, you proved the point I am making even more. Good job, have a youtiao.

 

[xizhimen]

CCP lifted over 800 million people out of poverty after PRC was founded, this single feat has not been matched in the human history, and democratic Indian government has a long way to go to come close to this achievement.

 

[Nilgiri]

CCP achieved a lot of miracles in the past 4 decades, as for Mao, he was an exception cause he was the founder of PRC so he was exempt from China's leadership selection system, all leaders after him through this system served China very well, argubly the most competent and productive bunch in the worls.
Mao didn't kill 30 million or whatever number the west made up, many people did die from famine and natural disasters, whatever the cause of them is highly debatable but they were still famine and natural disasters, India and many part of world also experienced famines in the near history, but rarely they were blamed on some individuals by the western media.

OK good distortion (or poor education) of history. Just like the altered images and story filters for tianenmen itself, where Mao portrait hangs smiling at his victim's descendants.

Yes India once independent and in control of her affairs, never produced a famine that led to millions of deaths. We are happy about that....that we didnt have a mass murdering founding father that we are forced to venerate.

British colonial history is another matter. I am not going to bring up too much on when China was not in control of its land either.

But Mao has zero excuse for what he did. He forcibly continue exporting grain knowing the peasants were starving.

You can read the big debacle within CCP leadership in arguing over what to do about it. Why you think years later Mao launched the cultural revolution to get even (among other things) with the troublemakers that dared to confront and speak some basic sense to him?

Hopefully you know which authors (yes Chinese ones) to find and read regarding this, the archives.

You really think the gang of four trial was the only reckoning?

 

[Nilgiri]

CCP lifted over 800 million people out of poverty after PRC was founded, this single feat has not been matched in the human history, and democratic Indian government has a long way to go to come close to this achievement.

Simply posting things again and again will only get mod action. Please make a new point instead of this typical reaction when triggered. Thanks. You have to try to make your argument better rather than CCP sloganeering. The latter only puts off the audience...we have long heard this 1000 times from same ole same ole and we long know the faults behind it too.

 

[Nilgiri]

Just one of many researchers within China:

Yang Jisheng, senior journalist from Xinhua News Agency, concluded there were 36 million deaths due to starvation, while another 40 million others failed to be born, so that "China's total population loss during the Great Famine then comes to 76 million."

Or you going to tell me Xinhua is....how did you put it..." whatever number the west made up"

Or Mao and CCP (with the policy creating and enforcing this) are Westerners?