TR Sensors and Detector Programs

[Strong AI]

{#Radar}
The MURAD 100-A AESA Nose Radar offers a game-changing solution for fighter jets and UAVs with its superior performance in air-to-air and air-to-ground engagements.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1862428124413059416

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I hope it's a competitive radar system! Aircraft, fly-by-wire, radar, EW, friend-or-foe detection with target acquisition, avionics, communications systems that are non-jammable and tap-proof + countermeasures, missile/laser warning system.
We have never produced such a highly complex system that is so interconnected.
I'm really worried about whether the software is good enough, because that will be the Achilles heel: How fast and safe is it in real time in a combat situation? For example in close combat (dogfight) & beyond visual range combat or surveillance missions, is this data really reliable, can the pilot really rely on this data...
The other countries have decades of development of such systems behind them and therefore experience. We are talking here about evolutionary leaps from radar systems to new radar systems or from operating systems and software to new operating systems and software. We are practically starting from scratch.
I hope that it will not only be a competitive fighter aircraft on paper, but also in reality. ASELSAN & Co can say a lot about what this or that system can do, but it also has to deliver, and better than or at least equal to all other systems, otherwise the result of a conflict will be the death of the pilot.

 

[Afif]

I hope it's a competitive radar system! Aircraft, fly-by-wire, radar, EW, friend-or-foe detection with target acquisition, avionics, communications systems that are non-jammable and tap-proof + countermeasures, missile/laser warning system.
We have never produced such a highly complex system that is so interconnected.
I'm really worried about whether the software is good enough, because that will be the Achilles heel: How fast and safe is it in real time in a combat situation? For example in close combat (dogfight) & beyond visual range combat or surveillance missions, is this data really reliable, can the pilot really rely on this data...
The other countries have decades of development of such systems behind them and therefore experience. We are talking here about evolutionary leaps from radar systems to new radar systems or from operating systems and software to new operating systems and software. We are practically starting from scratch.
I hope that it will not only be a competitive fighter aircraft on paper, but also in reality. ASELSAN & Co can say a lot about what this or that system can do, but it also has to deliver, and better than or at least equal to all other systems, otherwise the result of a conflict will be the death of the pilot.

I mean there is a reason why they do years of digital and real world testings. Aslesan had a good learning and growth curve. From Kalkan I in 2000s to all types new generation ESA (electronically scanned array) sensors in 2020s. MURAD is only constrained by its cooling capacity. Which unfortunately seems to be a bit low.

 

[Oublious]

"Kartal yuvası" için Türkiye'de ilk kez bu boyutta "radom" üretildi

Hava trafik kontrol radarını dış etkilerden korumak için Türkiye'de bugüne kadar yerli imkanlarla yapılmamış bir mühendislik çalışması gerçekleştirildi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[TheInsider]

I mean there is a reason why they do years of digital and real world testings. Aslesan had a good learning and growth curve. From Kalkan I in 2000s to all types new generation ESA (electronically scanned array) sensors in 2020s. MURAD is only constrained by its cooling capacity. Which unfortunately seems to be a bit low.

I heard slightly different things about that issue. Murad has state of the art efficiency which means less power is turned into heat. Also since it is a pulsed radar, the average power is way lower than the total theoretical output power (1152*30W=34.56 kW).

Assume that we have 2 incandescent light bulbs (%10 efficiency) with 100W power draw. One of them is always on and the other one is switched on and of really fast (for pulses of light) and average on-time is only half of the other light bulb. The first one will draw 100W power, it will create 90W of heat and 10W will be radiated as light with a %10 efficiency. The second one will draw 50W power 45W heat and 5W light. Now assume that we have a light bulb with %50 efficiency and similar pulsed operation the amount of heat created will be 25W.

 

[Afif]

I heard slightly different things about that issue. Murad has state of the art efficiency which means less power is turned into heat. Also since it is a pulsed radar, the average power is way lower than the total theoretical output power (1152*30W=34.56 kW).

Assume that we have 2 incandescent light bulbs (%10 efficiency) with 100W power draw. One of them is always on and the other one is switched on and of really fast (for pulses of light) and average on-time is only half of the other light bulb. The first one will draw 100W power, it will create 90W of heat and 10W will be radiated as light with a %10 efficiency. The second one will draw 50W power 45W heat and 5W light. Now assume that we have a light bulb with %50 efficiency and similar pulsed operation the amount of heat created will be 25W.

Of course, all radars of this type are pulsed radars. Continuous wave fire control/illumination radar has no relevant to this discussion. If we do some brainstorming with few rules of thumbs that we know, then this is what we get-

GaAs HPA (high power amplifier) can achieve power added efficiency (PAE) of around 40%. And GaN HPA can achieve PAE of around 50%. However, given there are others elements consuming power on T/R modules, such as switching circuitry, module control circuit, etc, overall module efficiency becomes much lower than PAE of only GaAs or GaN amplifiers, according to this paper.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Estimated-detection-ranges-vs-scan-angle-th-against-a-target-of-1-m-RCS-for-the-radars_fig1_337985199

Let's say if Aselsan achieved some 50%+ efficiency of its GaN amplifiers,
then overall T/R module efficiency could be reasonably around 33%.

So now, if MURAD wants to operate at 300KHz PRF then it means, it will draw some 10.3KW power assuming 1 microsecond pulse width. That means around 6.8KW turning into heat waste. And we know that MURAD's liquid cooling system is capable of 4.5KW cooling. If we left out 1.5KW for back-end hardware like estimated with APG-83 in the paper above, then 3KW cooling capacity is left for the array. So, now MURAD has to operate at less then 150 KHz PRF. And if it wants to emmit wider pulses (like two microsecond) then PRF is slashed further by half.

Maybe they can increase the cooling capacity with further updgrade potential as you said before. Or could it be that F16's 5.5kw air cooling capacity remains unchanged with Ozgur program along with built-in 4.5kw liquid cooling system of MURAD? Could it work like that? I don't know.

 

[hugh]

When do you think we'd see a Gökdogan guided by Murad radar? In 2025?

 

[TheInsider]

Of course, all radars of this type are pulsed radars. Continuous wave fire control/illumination radar has no relevant to this discussion. If we do some brainstorming with few rules of thumbs that we know, then this is what we get-

GaAs HPA (high power amplifier) can achieve power added efficiency (PAE) of around 40%. And GaN HPA can achieve PAE of around 50%. However, given there are others elements consuming power on T/R modules, such as switching circuitry, module control circuit, etc, overall module efficiency becomes much lower than PAE of only GaAs or GaN amplifiers, according to this paper.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Estimated-detection-ranges-vs-scan-angle-th-against-a-target-of-1-m-RCS-for-the-radars_fig1_337985199

Let's say if Aselsan achieved some 50%+ efficiency of its GaN amplifiers,
then overall T/R module efficiency could be reasonably around 33%.

So now, if MURAD wants to operate at 300KHz PRF then it means, it will draw some 10.3KW power assuming 1 microsecond pulse width. That means around 6.8KW turning into heat waste. And we know that MURAD's liquid cooling system is capable of 4.5KW cooling. If we left out 1.5KW for back-end hardware like estimated with APG-83 in the paper above, then 3KW cooling capacity is left for the array. So, now MURAD has to operate at less then 150 KHz PRF. And if it wants to emmit wider pulses (like two microsecond) then PRF is slashed further by half.

Maybe they can increase the cooling capacity with further updgrade potential as you said before. Or could it be that F16's 5.5kw air cooling capacity remains unchanged with Ozgur program along with built-in 4.5kw liquid cooling system of MURAD? Could it work like that? I don't know.

Yeah, this is very close to the info I have. The end-to-end efficiency of Murad radar is given from %35-%39 depending on broadcast frequency. 4.5 kW liquid cooling cools the radar antenna, modules and back-end hardware while military-grade fans and heat pipes cool the LRUs associated with the radar like processors etc. That package stays inside the limits of current cooling capacity of F-16. PRF is indeed 150 kHz for F-16 variant but i highly doubt 1.5 kW figure for the back end hardware. APG-83 is an old AESA radar at this point and shouldn't be taken as an example.

 

[Afif]

Yeah, this is very close to the info I have. The end-to-end efficiency of Murad radar is given from %35-%39 depending on broadcast frequency. 4.5 kW liquid cooling cools the radar antenna, modules and back-end hardware while military-grade fans and heat pipes cool the LRUs associated with the radar like processors etc. That package stays inside the limits of current cooling capacity of F-16. PRF is indeed 150 kHz for F-16 variant but i highly doubt 1.5 kW figure for the back end hardware. APG-83 is an old AESA radar at this point and shouldn't be taken as an exampe.

Well, by back-end hardware I meant associated LRUs like REP. If it is cooled separately by other systems as you say and all of 4.5KW capacity of liquid cooling system is dedicated to the array (antennas and TRM packs), then this is great.

On another note, will KE use the same cooling system for its MURAD variant?

 

[TheInsider]

Well, by back-end hardware I meant associated LRUs like REP. If it is cooled separately by other systems as you say and all of 4.5KW capacity of liquid cooling system is dedicated to the array (antennas and TRM packs), then this is great.

On another note, will KE use the same cooling system for its MURAD variant?

Only the F-16 version of MURAD is finalized right now. F-16 version won't see any changes including cooling. Even though a MURAD prototype is flying on Akıncı, Akıncı version is still not finalized.

Kızılelma and a possible Anka-3 version will be different as those will work fully compatible with frequency-selective stealth radomes i expect some frequency bands to be blocked by hardware

Hurjet might have a scaled-down version but the latest modification of the Hurjet nose suggests that it might have the same F-16 version.

 

[Radonsider]

Well, by back-end hardware I meant associated LRUs like REP. If it is cooled separately by other systems as you say and all of 4.5KW capacity of liquid cooling system is dedicated to the array (antennas and TRM packs), then this is great.

On another note, will KE use the same cooling system for its MURAD variant?

it is only for the array iirc