TR HÜRJET-Advanced Jet Trainer/ Light attack aircraft

[Sanchez]

News from Spain:

"Air Force prioritizes industrial returns in F-5 replacement: "The Hürjet is well positioned".

"The major objective is to buy an advanced trainer with a significant participation in the Spanish defense industry program, in line with the Defense Ministry's procurement policy. At this point, talks are currently underway with different candidates, among which the Hürjet of the Turkish firm TAI stands out. "We are going to acquire a trainer, but what returns do we have, at that point is the negotiation", explained the Chief of the Air Staff (JEMA), Air General Francisco Braco, in a meeting with journalists in Madrid.

The Ministry of Defense and the Air and Space Army, explained JEMA, do not want to acquire an aircraft through a "leasing" where there is a high dependence on the manufacturer for the maintenance or updating of components. "The goal is to have our own aircraft that we can touch," he stressed. The air general also reviewed some of the candidates including TAI's Hürjet, Korean KAI's T-50 and also Leonardo's M-346, but insisted that much of the discussion revolves around the aforementioned returns.

Regarding the Hürjet, the JEMA confirmed that the TAI company presented the aircraft to the Air and Space Army in Spain and that the possible purchase was also discussed in the margins of Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's visit to Madrid in June this year."The Hürjet is well positioned, I don't deny it, but with conditions, and we are in those conditions right now," Braco concluded."

El Ejército del Aire prioriza los retornos industriales en la sustitución de los F-5: "El Hürjet está bien posicionado"

En este punto están en la actualidad las conversaciones con los distintos candidatos entre los que sobresale el Hürjet de la firma turca TAI.'Vamos a adquirir un entrenador, pero ¿qué retorn ...

www.infodefensa.com

Spain is interested in up to 55 aircraft to replace their old F-5 trainers, aggressor aircraft and those of their Acroteam Patrulla Aguilla, which operate 12 C-101s.

 

[Saithan]

For the umptheenth time we'll see when we get there. Meanwhile since hürjet is flying and doing acrobatics etc. We should focus on semi-mass production of Hürjet and have a dedicated team for it. Better safe than sorry.

 

[boredaf]

For the umptheenth time we'll see when we get there. Meanwhile since hürjet is flying and doing acrobatics etc. We should focus on semi-mass production of Hürjet and have a dedicated team for it. Better safe than sorry.

That makes absolutely zero sense. Mainly because we don't have an engine for it either, and we have no idea if we could get an agreement for engine to be used on a light attack variant. How on earth are you expecting it to enter "mass" production without engines? We don't even have an engine program for it right now mate.

Not to mention, it is far less capable than even the worst version of Kaan would be. It is doubtful it can even carry our heaviest munitions. Why push for it and split your workforce and budget?? People are really overestimating Hürjet.

 

[Saithan]

That makes absolutely zero sense. Mainly because we don't have an engine for it either, and we have no idea if we could get an agreement for engine to be used on a light attack variant. How on earth are you expecting it to enter "mass" production without engines? We don't even have an engine program for it right now mate.

Not to mention, it is far less capable than even the worst version of Kaan would be. It is doubtful it can even carry our heaviest munitions. Why push for it and split your workforce and budget?? People are really overestimating Hürjet.

It makes sense of you use engine from GE. At least there is no hyper over domestic engine for Hürjet, so it'd be perfect to continue with the trainer version and on the side develop it as LCA.

So what's delaying or who is delaying semi-mass production of Hürjet ? I'd say politics. I can't remember if the sale of engine fo Hürjet got through US senate. But we should have had that deal in place long ago.

 

[boredaf]

It makes sense of you use engine from GE. At least there is no hyper over domestic engine for Hürjet, so it'd be perfect to continue with the trainer version and on the side develop it as LCA.

So what's delaying or who is delaying semi-mass production of Hürjet ? I'd say politics. I can't remember if the sale of engine fo Hürjet got through US senate. But we should have had that deal in place long ago.

Okay, you use the engine for the trainer, sure. But you wouldn't be able to use it for the light attack version. So, what did you gain by putting more resources into it? Nothing.

 

[Saithan]

Okay, you use the engine for the trainer, sure. But you wouldn't be able to use it for the light attack version. So, what did you gain by putting more resources into it? Nothing.

Why would we not be able to use on LCA version of Hürjet ? I've said it before, if we can transform Hürjet to LCA without changing it's structure then it's best to build as many Hürjet as possible

 

[boredaf]

Why would we not be able to use on LCA version of Hürjet ? I've said it before, if we can transform Hürjet to LCA without changing it's structure then it's best to build as many Hürjet as possible

Mate, you buy those engines to use them on a trainer, you can only use them on a trainer without their explicit say so. You think they are just going to give them to us to do whatever we want? And a trainer plane that cannot even carry 3 tons is not going to help that much to us, it certainly won't be able to go against any 5th gen plane.

 

[Saithan]

Mate, you buy those engines to use them on a trainer, you can only use them on a trainer without their explicit say so. You think they are just going to give them to us to do whatever we want? And a trainer plane that cannot even carry 3 tons is not going to help that much to us, it certainly won't be able to go against any 5th gen plane.

I disagree with you on that. I know that if we acquire them for trainer then that's what we should do, but in an all out war or such, being able to turn those jets into LCA and more modern one is an asset that should not be under estimated. As it is our fighterjets are getting older and older.

 

[boredaf]

I disagree with you on that. I know that if we acquire them for trainer then that's what we should do, but in an all out war or such, being able to turn those jets into LCA and more modern one is an asset that should not be under estimated. As it is our fighterjets are getting older and older.

In an all out war, either we are sided with US and NATO then we wouldn't have problem with procuring the engines we actually need for Kaan (until our own is ready) or we are on the opposite sides and we won't get engines at all. And if there isn't a war, trying to use those engines on attack craft (other than in a prototype) after buying it for a trainer craft is simply idiotic as that would jeopardise other projects, including Kaan. Hürjet is not worth it mate. We'd be better of investing in KE and Anka-3 and TF6K and TF10K instead of risking so much for Hürjet.

In fact, you can mark my words, Turkish Airforce will not buy Hürjet in attack configuration at all, nor will the Navy get it for anything other than as a trainer.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Turkiye and Spain to Collaborate on Hürjet | TURDEF

Secretary of SSB Professor Haluk Görgün announced that an agreement was signed between Turkiye and Spain regarding the Jet Training Aircraft Project.

turdef.com

A Memorandum of Understanding has been signed between Turkey and Spain regarding the cooperation on the development of Hurjet training aircraft.
That is interesting to know that things are hotting up between the two countries regarding the prospective purchase of Hurjet trainer by the Spanish Airforce.

According to this news piece, TEI has signed an agreement for the supply of 100 f404 engines with GE.

 

[dBSPL]

Turkiye and Spain to Collaborate on Hürjet | TURDEF

Secretary of SSB Professor Haluk Görgün announced that an agreement was signed between Turkiye and Spain regarding the Jet Training Aircraft Project.

turdef.com

A Memorandum of Understanding has been signed between Turkey and Spain regarding the cooperation on the development of Hurjet training aircraft.
That is interesting to know that things are hotting up between the two countries regarding the prospective purchase of Hurjet trainer by the Spanish Airforce.

According to this news piece, TEI has signed an agreement for the supply of 100 f404 engines with GE.
View attachment 72771

Spain has a considerable air force and, according to online sources, already has around 60 C-101EBs and F-5BMs in active inventory. I think this gives the Spanish air force a large enough training fleet to make it one of the most important users of the Hürjet, along with the Turkish air force. So one of the things I am curious about is whether Airbus Military's facilities in Spain (former CASA) will be involved in the production activities of the Hürjet.

 

[Ripley]

. So one of the things I am curious about is whether Airbus Military's facilities in Spain (former CASA) will be involved in the production activities of the Hürjet.

Wouldn’t that be a natural outcome given the fact that TAI holds somewhat limited production capacity?

 

[TheInsider]

Big news.

 

[Sanchez]

Spain has a considerable air force and, according to online sources, already has around 60 C-101EBs and F-5BMs in active inventory. I think this gives the Spanish air force a large enough training fleet to make it one of the most important users of the Hürjet, along with the Turkish air force. So one of the things I am curious about is whether Airbus Military's facilities in Spain (former CASA) will be involved in the production activities of the Hürjet.

Projected Spanish requirement is about 55 trainer aircraft to replace their trainers, aggressor aircraft and the acroteam aircraft like we plan to do.

These are lovely, welcome news. As far as I understand it, it's not a sale and it's not close to a sale yet, but a MOU to develop the aircraft together or explore the possibilities to actively develop a Spanish version(maybe even with EJ-200 instead of F404) of the aircraft with larger Spanish workshare and technical requirements. Really hoping it materializes. Spaniards will no doubt will want increased workload either for their own aircraft or for the whole project. They are an aerospace giant in their own right with a solid history of codeveloping and even building their own aircraft like with C-101, C-235, starting member of Airbus etc, and they have multiple subcomponent suppliers, many of which are already installed on Hürjet currently. They have their own expertise they don't want to lose and this might be a start of a great relationship in further aerospace projects between us. Spain is already a major exporter of aerospace systems for decades and with Spanish expertise added, Hürjet might beat the T-50 to be a major export success altogether if a nice relationship is formed, giving billions to TAI, and ensuring Hürjet's line being open for decades.

 

[Kaan Azman]

This can go beyond a major export if we get to have a deep cooperation on HÜRJET with Spain and think of the trust it is going to build when an European country is the first customer.

 

[dBSPL]

Projected Spanish requirement is about 55 trainer aircraft to replace their trainers, aggressor aircraft and the acroteam aircraft like we plan to do.

These are lovely, welcome news. As far as I understand it, it's not a sale and it's not close to a sale yet, but a MOU to develop the aircraft together or explore the possibilities to actively develop a Spanish version(maybe even with EJ-200 instead of F404) of the aircraft with larger Spanish workshare and technical requirements. Really hoping it materializes. Spaniards will no doubt will want increased workload either for their own aircraft or for the whole project. They are an aerospace giant in their own right with a solid history of codeveloping and even building their own aircraft like with C-101, C-235, starting member of Airbus etc, and they have multiple subcomponent suppliers, many of which are already installed on Hürjet currently. They have their own expertise they don't want to lose and this might be a start of a great relationship in further aerospace projects between us. Spain is already a major exporter of aerospace systems for decades and with Spanish expertise added, Hürjet might beat the T-50 to be a major export success altogether if a nice relationship is formed, giving billions to TAI, and ensuring Hürjet's line being open for decades.

This post answered many questions in my head, thank you. I am aware of Spain's deep experience and history in military aviation. Although I have not been able to follow the important developments such as industrial restructuring, acquisitions and mergers in the last 10 years, Spain's military aircraft portfolio is already enough to explain many things.

I hope that, through the Hürjet, we can draw a model of cooperation between Spain and Turkiye based on mutual interests. The Turkish aerospace industry is preparing to compete on a global scale, especially in the 2030s, and Spain's industrial support could be invaluable. While Spain has one foot in Airbus, its involving into another potential emerging European aerospace center could pave the way for Spain to further develop its established capacity.

 

[uçuyorum]

This is a pipedream but would be cool if we built two carriers together one for spain and one for us and worked together on naval hurjet

 

[Sanchez]

This post answered many questions in my head, thank you. I am aware of Spain's deep experience and history in military aviation. Although I have not been able to follow the important developments such as industrial restructuring, acquisitions and mergers in the last 10 years, Spain's military aircraft portfolio is already enough to explain many things.

I hope that, through the Hürjet, we can draw a model of cooperation between Spain and Turkiye based on mutual interests. The Turkish aerospace industry is preparing to compete on a global scale, especially in the 2030s, and Spain's industrial support could be invaluable. While Spain has one foot in Airbus, its involving into another potential emerging European aerospace center could pave the way for Spain to further develop its established capacity.

Yup. I think people should understand this as it is.

This is not a sale of "Hürjet" to Spain. This is Hürjet going international and becoming a European trainer. Spaniards are very well connected to rest of the continent re aerospace and will push it heavily. At this time, there are no advanced European trainer aircraft either in active development or on cards. M-346 is simply not getting orders and it's not set for becoming a true advanced trainer for 21st century to train pilots for F-35, Kaan, FCAS, GCAP etc. Other projects are all cancelled. Noone is waiting for the T-7 which is fraught with issues and US procurement will take at least a decade to come to a level where they will only then actively seek export.

If this succeeds, UK and many other NATO countries will buy Hürjet, its name will probably change to a more Euro sounding name in the process, many American subcomponents on it will be replaced by European and Turkish ones.

From Defence Turkey 134th issue: "According to our sources, within the scope of the Spanish Air and Space Force (SASF)'s next-generation AJT Pogram, In lieu of direct procurement of HÜRJET from Türkiye, it is asserted that an alternative option is under consideration, whereby Spanish companies will also have local technological participation. This collaboration could transform HÜRJET into a next-generation European Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) Project, developed through the partnership of TUSAŞ, Spanish Companies. As a result, HÜRJET could attract further demand from other European countries seeking next-generation AJT."

Tony Osborne seems to see the same potential in this as well. Spain had also signed a deal to buy 25 more EF-2000s for its air force today, ensuring program goes on and necessitates the Germans to place another order as well.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1870112466958475573

For us, this means a steady stream of money flowing into TAI's fixed wing aircraft programs, a greater cooperation with European companies which we already had working relationships in the past through A400M, and we aim to have with the EF-2000 purchase and making sure Hürjet development for TurAF needs are finished as required in time and on budget where we won't see a repeat of Hürkuş and most importantly ensures Hürjet becomes an export success in not 100 units but hundreds of units and is sold to respectable air forces around the world for actual currency and partnerships instead of palm oil.

 

[dBSPL]

There is an overwhelming 70% negative opinion on Spanish social media. Of course, some of this is motivated by bigotry, and there is even a minority of idiots who equate us with Russia; ignoring them, the main concern of the rest is not only the Hürjet, but the defense ministry's serial bad decisions that they claim, especially in the field of aviation. Those who are worried about the destruction of their industrial capabilities and those who criticize why they cannot find a solution within Airbus and turn to the Turks seem to be united under the Hürjet news.

 

[Sanchez]

There is an overwhelming 70% negative opinion on Spanish social media. Of course, some of this is motivated by bigotry, and there is even a minority of idiots who equate us with Russia; ignoring them, the main concern of the rest is not only the Hürjet, but the defense ministry's serial bad decisions that they claim, especially in the field of aviation. Those who are worried about the destruction of their industrial capabilities and those who criticize why they cannot find a solution within Airbus and turn to the Turks seem to be united under the Hürjet news.

It's the same with any country with great past and successes. What's true on the ground however Turkish Spanish defence cooperation over the last decade just kept growing and getting more lucrative for both sides under multiple Spanish governments whether it's left or right. Political will seems to be there for this.

Could be such a great win, hope it happens. Who's to say FCAS won't crash and burn? What will they order then?