TR HÜRJET-Advanced Jet Trainer/ Light attack aircraft

[IC3M@N FX]

That's what i've been yelling for some time, Kaan is a really important and advanced project but instead of buying so many EFs and F16s we could opt out to build armed Hurjet that we can utilize and change it to our needs without any headache, and it could very well serve as a stop gap until Kaan has matured enough to be considered 5th gen, but there is not even a talk about a domestic engine for Hurjet which is really sad.

Ok and with which engine? F-404? Hürjet has neither the capacity nor the technology to counteract an F-16 Block 70, a Eurofighter Tranche 4 or a Rafaele in the current block.
The only possibility would be to make the Hürjet 20-30% larger and equip it with 2 F-404 engines so that the thrust ratio still remains between 0.9-1.X.
But what do you do if the USA says at some point, "Fuck you, you're not getting any more F-404 engines"?
Since the Hürjet with this configuration would be a capacity as a cheap workhorse in the Turkish fleet just by its price and its quantity of e.g. 300-400 aircraft with the option as a naval aircraft, it could cause a fundamental shift in power in the region together with the stealth drones and F-16 Özgur II/Block 70, Eurofighter and TAI KAAN.

Rule number 1 that applies to all aerospace nations, you don't build up your competitor militarily, you just give them the bare minimum.

Turkey is also not in a position to manage 3-4 different engine projects for different classes of fighter aircraft, we are not the USA or China.

The Kizilelma and Anka 3 and Ankinci Jumbo variants will take over the F-16/F-4 Phantom Terminator division of labor in the long term. TAI KAAN, and the F-16 Özgur II/Block 70 and possibly the Eurofighter will be there for everything else. The result will be that we will see in Patrol Flights fewer manned fighter aircraft in the sky and when then Hürjet armed Version together with Drones.

 

[Zoth]

Ok and with which engine? F-404? Hürjet has neither the capacity nor the technology to counteract an F-16 Block 70, a Eurofighter Tranche 4 or a Rafaele in the current block.
The only possibility would be to make the Hürjet 20-30% larger and equip it with 2 F-404 engines so that the thrust ratio still remains between 0.9-1.X.
But what do you do if the USA says at some point, "Fuck you, you're not getting any more F-404 engines"?
Since the Hürjet with this configuration would be a capacity as a cheap workhorse in the Turkish fleet just by its price and its quantity of e.g. 300-400 aircraft with the option as a naval aircraft, it could cause a fundamental shift in power in the region together with the stealth drones and F-16 Özgur II/Block 70, Eurofighter and TAI KAAN.

Rule number 1 that applies to all aerospace nations, you don't build up your competitor militarily, you just give them the bare minimum.

Turkey is also not in a position to manage 3-4 different engine projects for different classes of fighter aircraft, we are not the USA or China.

The Kizilelma and Anka 3 and Ankinci Jumbo variants will take over the F-16/F-4 Phantom Terminator division of labor in the long term. TAI KAAN, and the F-16 Özgur II/Block 70 and possibly the Eurofighter will be there for everything else. The result will be that we will see in Patrol Flights fewer manned fighter aircraft in the sky and when then Hürjet armed Version together with Drones.

There is a small misunderstanding here, read my post more carefully once more, be sure to read the last part where i mentioned the importance of "domestic engine".

Other than that, i kind of agree with your points but once we master making the tf10k, the process is similar whether you scale it to 35k lbf or to more similar levels to f404.

By the time we are going to receive EFs or F16 V's, we would mature Hurjet enough to be capable, we are talking around early 2028s.

 

[Nutuk]

Ok and with which engine? F-404? Hürjet has neither the capacity nor the technology to counteract an F-16 Block 70, a Eurofighter Tranche 4 or a Rafaele in the current block.

Nice question, I think it is maybe even the opposite and Hurjet can be even more valuable than an F16 or Eurofighter.

We can use the Hurjet in combination with Kizilelma. Having a "loyal winman concept" with a 4th gen. light fighter will make us unique. Will give much much more deterence (if that is what we looking for) and secondly will solidify our lead in drones in the world even more.

Instead we are looking for Eurofighters, go figure. Madness IMHO. Going to make ourselves dependent on foreign missiles and bombs

The only possibility would be to make the Hürjet 20-30% larger and equip it with 2 F-404 engines so that the thrust ratio still remains between 0.9-1.X.
But what do you do if the USA says at some point, "Fuck you, you're not getting any more F-404 engines"?

Old fashioned thinking see above, let drones do the work. Besides with the money to purchase 40 Eurofighters we can purchase easily about 100 Hurjet. Where does that leave the advantage of a Eurofighter???

 

[IC3M@N FX]

You overestimate the Turkish software development a bit, Turkey is still at the beginning, the other manufacturers have been developing these really modern combat aircraft since the 70/80s and therefore also have a head start in the software development of the operating system and its applications in the aircraft.
The Americans, Chinese, Europeans and to some extent the Russians have taken decades to develop flight systems that run efficiently with today's hardware, e.g. main computer, AESA radar, flight control and target computer that not only harmonize together but also develop situational awareness, in principle a summary of the collected data and an evaluation in the form of a user interface, e.g. in a helmet HUD or displays in the cockpit.
ASELSAN & Co also claim that they can do this with the F-16 Özgür I/II, TAI KAAN & TAI Hürjet.
But this can and should be clearly defined and the actual data provided by the hardware and software are two different things.
How do you know that the retrieved data is not only worse from ASELSAN Systems, but also slower than that of the American/European versions and in a dogfight, for example, time is a very important factor.
I want to draw a comparison with a current iPhone, for example, where the software and hardware has been optimized to death over a decade so that it runs really well, and for comparison a completely new Android smartphone manufacturer comes onto the market with its new smartphone, which probably still has teething problems and runs on unoptimized software, and you have to imagine aircraft systems in the same way.
There is a reason why Turkey really wants to have F-16 Block 70 and Eurofighter, the hardware and software is simply not ready yet, it will take at least another 7-8 years to get something usable.

 

[Nutuk]

You overestimate the Turkish software development a bit, Turkey is still at the beginning, the other manufacturers have been developing these really modern combat aircraft since the 70/80s and therefore also have a head start in the software development of the operating system and its applications in the aircraft.
The Americans, Chinese, Europeans and to some extent the Russians have taken decades to develop flight systems that run efficiently with today's hardware, e.g. main computer, AESA radar, flight control and target computer that not only harmonize together but also develop situational awareness, in principle a summary of the collected data and an evaluation in the form of a user interface, e.g. in a helmet HUD or displays in the cockpit.
ASELSAN & Co also claim that they can do this with the F-16 Özgür I/II, TAI KAAN & TAI Hürjet.
But this can and should be clearly defined and the actual data provided by the hardware and software are two different things.
How do you know that the retrieved data is not only worse from ASELSAN Systems, but also slower than that of the American/European versions and in a dogfight, for example, time is a very important factor.
I want to draw a comparison with a current iPhone, for example, where the software and hardware has been optimized to death over a decade so that it runs really well, and for comparison a completely new Android smartphone manufacturer comes onto the market with its new smartphone, which probably still has teething problems and runs on unoptimized software, and you have to imagine aircraft systems in the same way.
There is a reason why Turkey really wants to have F-16 Block 70 and Eurofighter, the hardware and software is simply not ready yet, it will take at least another 7-8 years to get something usable.

Good you make an analogy with an example

Let me counter with a counter analogy, suppose we had purchased American Reaper drones. They are bigger, faster, Americans are virtually the creator of software. Would it have served us better than TB2?

If you do not own the tech you can purchase a black box and use it only in the form as the manual describes (in other words you are severely limited to use the product as the foreigner sells it to you in the allowed limits). Yes it would be a nice shiny expensive toy, but tactically much much less valuable than the TB2 as in the reaper example.

 

[Huelague]

You overestimate the Turkish software development a bit, Turkey is still at the beginning, the other manufacturers have been developing these really modern combat aircraft since the 70/80s and therefore also have a head start in the software development of the operating system and its applications in the aircraft.

Don't worry, this job will made by AI in the future.

 

[Nutuk]

What is the most funny part is that I hear a lot of arguments like we need the Eurofighter to counter Rafale.

Just LOL! So we gonna purchase an aircraft to use it against and EU country with MBDA missiles etc.?

What kind of Einstein does it take to come to such a solution? That is virtually purchasing a stick that will beat you. You'd virtually give them means to embargo, manipulate your weapons, stop selling you spares etc. etc. (now what kind of donkey logic would that be, Nasrettin hoca stile cutting the branch you sit on)

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Don't worry, this job will made by AI in the future.

AI is not a panacea - how do you want to have program code analysed and optimized by AI software in order to eliminate sources of error or speed things up? To do this, the AI software must first of all know the program code and know what context it belongs to and what it is needed for.
The software would have to be optimized by the AI at the same time.
To do this, an AI model would first have to be developed that is capable of doing this.
I'm sorry, but Turkey doesn't have the capacity to simply pull something like Google Gemini or CHAT GPT out of its sleeve in such high quality. With all due love and pride in what has been achieved so far, real AI software that processes META data and pulls information from all sources while still searching for and offering possible solutions is a multi-billion dollar affair - not even China is capable of delivering such AI systems just like that, how is Turkey supposed to do it?

If you mean scripting systems that react to situation A with solution B, then that's not AI for me.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Good you make an analogy with an example

Let me counter with a counter analogy, suppose we had purchased American Reaper drones. They are bigger, faster, Americans are virtually the creator of software. Would it have served us better than TB2?

If you do not own the tech you can purchase a black box and use it only in the form as the manual describes (in other words you are severely limited to use the product as the foreigner sells it to you in the allowed limits). Yes it would be a nice shiny expensive toy, but tactically much much less valuable than the TB2 as in the reaper example.

That is not what I wanted to tell you, the path that Turkey is taking is indispensable and it has to take this path to get this independence to be able to sit at the table in the future when resources become scarcer in the world.

But it doesn't change the fact that there is a rocky road ahead and a learning process is taking place.
Operating systems and applications don't come from one day to the next.
Even operating systems such as Windows were developed from Windows 95 to the evolution to Windows 11.
Software development is the most difficult thing you can't speed it up with any money in the world because it is ultimately a trail and error affair.
And honestly, if Turkey had not received an SDK from Dassault Aviation for the development of an aircraft operating system and all the software subcomponents for TAI KAAN & Hürjet, they would not even have a fighter plane today.
Have fun with the development of a development environment and its tools for creating an operating system.
Turkey is not in a position to do this because if it were, it would have already used its own.

 

[selim]

You don't need Chat GPT answering you questions about Hitler or Mars.

Huelague is right: AI will or probably is already writing code.
AI needs to be fed with coding best-practices (books, Professor, Coders), the ability to interpret what you are asking of it and its own simulation environment where it can benchmark its own written code.
The more I think about it the less complicated it seems, you just need some competent people working on it.

ARF, ranked as the world's 313th most powerful supercomputer with a processing capacity equivalent to over 35,000 laptops and a cost exceeding 11 million dollars, will enable our researchers serving in strategic fields, such as defense industry, manufacturing, drug design, and disease diagnostics, to perform simulations concurrently as needed

MODSIMMER TRUBA Data Center and ARF - One of the World's Most Powerful Supercomputers - In Service Now! | NATIONAL ACADEMIC NETWORK AND INFORMATION CENTER

ulakbim.tubitak.gov.tr

 

[Nutuk]

That is not what I wanted to tell you, the path that Turkey is taking is indispensable and it has to take this path to get this independence to be able to sit at the table in the future when resources become scarcer in the world.

That's a strange contradiction than, to get more independent we move to purchase foreign aircraft to make ourselves more dependent? And what table to sit at?

And honestly, if Turkey had not received an SDK from Dessault for the development of an aircraft operating system and all the software subcomponents for TAI KAAN & Hürjet, they would not even have a fighter plane today. Have fun with the development of a development environment and its tools for creating an operating system.
Turkey is not in a position to do this because if it were, it would have already used its own.

That is also not completely correct, the development system of Dassault was one of the options. There are several design software available, another software package would have probably worked as fine. These are arguments for the sake of it.


Just get to the core, tell plainly why we need the Typhoon not the excuses

 

[selim]

I doubt KAAN or any Turkish flying platform is using Dassault-Windows/Whatever as its operating system.

Dassault has their software because they had a use-case with their planes.
Their coding history started without today's AI / supercomputer / development environment, which I can imagine was very hard.

No one developed and spent money on this in Turkey, because there was no flying platform before.

With today's knowledge how long did it take for TOGG to materialize ?
Not long.
You can 1) nationalize systems later (Tb-2 example)
or
2) you develop all nationaly at once but then KAAN may not be flying at needed time and other projects may get delayed because you are re-allocating funds to KAAN from yearly budget.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I doubt KAAN or any Turkish flying platform is using Dassault-Windows/Whatever as its operating system.

Dassault has their software because they had a use-case with their planes.
Their coding history started without today's AI / supercomputer / development environment, which I can imagine was very hard.

No one developed and spent money on this in Turkey, because there was no flying platform before.

With today's knowledge how long did it take for TOGG to materialize ?
Not long.
You can 1) nationalize systems later (Tb-2 example)
or
2) you develop all nationaly at once but then KAAN may not be flying at needed time

Please do not confuse the development environment with its tools for creating an operating system and its programs with the operating system itself.

The operating systems of KAAN & Hürjet are Turkish, if you can call them that.
The SDK is not and without SDK there is no operating system and software quite simply.
Temel Kotil himself has confirmed that the development environment of the software development and operating system comes from Dassault.

From CHAT GPT Paid Version

The software environment and the software development kit (SDK) for the operating system and software of the TAI KAAN fighter aircraft are provided by Dassault Systèmes. In January 2017, it was announced that Dassault Systèmes would be the software partner for the development of the prototype. In addition, the development was facilitated by the use of a "digital twin" on Dassault Systèmes' 3D Experience platform.

 

[Nutuk]

The software environment and the software development kit (SDK) for the operating system and software of the TAI KAAN fighter aircraft are provided by Dassault Systèmes. In January 2017, it was announced that Dassault Systèmes would be the software partner for the development of the prototype. In addition, the development was facilitated by the use of a "digital twin" on Dassault Systèmes' 3D Experience platform.

Yes, nobody argues this. But what has it to do with buying Typhoon?

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Just get to the core, tell plainly why we need the Typhoon not the excuses

To diversify the fleet to allow a transition to TAI KAAN. But mainly it is very likely reverse engineering, at least I would do it as a country to improve my defense equipment, and that is one of the main arguments of the supplier states who are reluctant or unwilling to supply access to western technology and how it works for both the F-16 Block 70 and the Eurofighter.
The APG-83 is a high-performance AESA Radar and comes very close to that of the F-35 and F-22.
The Eurofighter has many hardware and software systems that could be of interest for the development of TAI KAAN, e.g. access to Meteor missiles for its own missile systems. If you supply aircraft, you inevitably also have to supply ammunition.

 

[Nutuk]

To diversify the fleet in order to have a transition to TAI KAAN. But mainly it is very likely reverse engineering at least I would do it as a country to improve own defense systems and that is one of the main arguments of the supplying state not to supply or with greatest reluctance both with the F-16 Block 70 and Eurofighter the access to Western technology

A) to diversify the fleet in order to have transition to Kaan????? Reverse engineering a 4th gen while we design a 5th gen? Sorry bro, but that makes no sense at all.

B) ACCESS to western technology? Than why is our goal to get independent? Very contradicting arguments bro.



Case is that there is no single argument that justifies the purchase of Typhoon else than a political buy. It's a shame that political purchases are made, money wasted which our own industry needs direly.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I don't know what other arguments to give you, half of Europe and the USA don't see the country as a partner but as a competitor.

They don't want to supply high technology by any means because they know Turkey will not only use these systems to defend their hard & soft power in their region and also outside.
They will do 100% reverse engineering to get knowledge about new systems and their hard & software from USA & Europe to improve and speed up their own systems.
The Russians and Chinese would jerk off live in front of the camera if they were given such access.

The Eurofighter Tranche 3/4 is one of the best and most modern fighter aircraft in the world it is comparable to the F-15 Super Eagle of the USA.
It doesn't matter if it has stealth or not, half the world doesn't even have stealth fighters and it's not going to change much in the next 20 years.

This is a win to win situation for Turkey because 40 Eurofighters are no leverage for Europe which in turn makes Turkey appear totally uncapable of acting if these Eurofighters would be sanctioned by the Eurofighter consortium e.g. with the refusal of spare parts and ammunition because Turkey does strategically & politically what they do not like.
Turkey has always been very resourceful when it comes to spare parts and modification of systems they would find a way to keep the Eurofighters operational and they know that.

The real problem is in sight of USA & Co when Turkey is able to develop weapons systems that really have a significant capability, even in the opinion of the Western states, and then export them to Pakistan and other countries, for example.
Then an era of war by the USA & Co. in the Middle East etc. on country XY ends. Because war is their business.
Then war becomes very expensive for the USA because the opponent may have weapons systems of NATO standard/quality, in the USA wars run together with public opinion, nobody gives a shit if a country at the other end of the world is bombed into the Stone Age, but everything tips over if too many US soldiers bite the dust then you have the same situation as in Vietnam.

 

[selim]

Please do not confuse the development environment with its tools for creating an operating system and its programs with the operating system itself.

The operating systems of KAAN & Hürjet are Turkish, if you can call them that.
The SDK is not and without SDK there is no operating system and software quite simply.
Temel Kotil himself has confirmed that the development environment of the software development and operating system comes from Dassault.

From CHAT GPT Paid Version

The software environment and the software development kit (SDK) for the operating system and software of the TAI KAAN fighter aircraft are provided by Dassault Systèmes. In January 2017, it was announced that Dassault Systèmes would be the software partner for the development of the prototype. In addition, the development was facilitated by the use of a "digital twin" on Dassault Systèmes' 3D Experience platform.

Please link Kotil's statement that KAAN's software is Dassault.

What Dassault may have provided Turkey is some fancy graphical frontend where you first of all click and then "try, simulate, get error, retry". Basically where the software tells you that sequence of clicks is possible, but your last click was bullshit.
Some Dassault engineers defined what's possible and what is not.
Every software follows user defined logic and you can make a supercomputer adopt that logic without a graphical frontend not requiring a human clicking, trying, getting error, trying again.
You can make the supercomputer do all that and output its calculations in the file format you need.
That's the future.

What operation system Bayraktar, Çelik Kubbe, MILGEM, Advent etc. are using according to your opinion ? Maybe not as complex as KAAN but still complex.

​

 

[dBSPL]

Single seated hurjet with a bigger Radome, more fuel+payload as light combat aircraft. It would be an excellent quality choice for air forces that can't afford traditional expensive 4.5th gen fighter in numbers. (Usually costing $150-200 millions each)

I think KAI's development of a single-seat variant for the FA-50 is also ongoing, not canceled. Of course, I'm not sure how reliable the internet sources are, my assurance is wikipedia (lol). Still, there is no reason why they shouldn't continue, they can further improve the range and payload capacity of the aircraft by lightening the canopy.

If my memory serves me right, the former TAI GM Kotil stated in one of his television interviews that the first prototype would not be the final aircraft in terms of structural qualities, that the aircraft would be lighter in production and that its maximum lift capacity would be increased in combatant variant without compromising range and maximum speed. In addition to structural improvements, a series of avionic improvements, perhaps planned as a few blocks, would also accompany this. Since we already have a KAI example working with the same series engine in FA-50, it would be a realistic approach to estimate that the payload capacity of the light attack variant of the Hürjet could be close to 4 tons or at least over 3,5.

For example, it could be a highly capable jet that could carry two 300/370 gal nato standard drop tanks on the inner pylons and 2 medium range cruise missiles or 8 SDBs on the outer pylons, and that it could carry two A-A missiles on the wingtips and an IRST or EW mission pod under the fuselage, as well as packed with a highly efficient AESA radar. In any case, it is not the kind of long-range air-interdiction that one would expect from much larger and powerfull aircrafts, but it can reach a flight radius of approximately 1500 km with drop tanks, reach a maximum lifting capacity of around 3.5-4 tons with the developments to be made, and thanks to its qualified avionics equipment and capabilities, it can provide a cost-effective solution in many air forces of the world, including some Strike and CAP type missions.

Nevertheless, I personally wish that while AJT side have stayed on efficiency with the F404, but for the combat variant have gone with an engine with the same diameter and without a dramatic dry weight difference, but with a higher continuous maximum power output. For example single-seat, STOBAR-capable light attack jet powered by an F414. Without working another airframe, structural and avionic improvements to the extent of TAI's capabilities, as well as a 20/25% more powerful engine configuration, could lead to higher top speed limits, turn rate and climb capability, and perhaps more than double the payload capacity specified for the Hürjet AJT, making the Hürjet N/LCA one of the strongest players in the light attack aircraft market within the possible fastest way.

 

[selim]

I don't know what other arguments to give you, half of Europe and the USA don't see the country as a partner but as a competitor.

They don't want to supply high technology by any means because they know Turkey will not only use these systems to defend their hard & soft power in their region and also outside.
They will do 100% reverse engineering to get knowledge about new systems and their hard & software from USA & Europe to improve and speed up their own systems.
The Russians and Chinese would jerk off live in front of the camera if they were given such access.

The Eurofighter Tranche 3/4 is one of the best and most modern fighter aircraft in the world it is comparable to the F-15 Super Eagle of the USA.
It doesn't matter if it has stealth or not, half the world doesn't even have stealth fighters and it's not going to change much in the next 20 years.

This is a win to win situation for Turkey because 40 Eurofighters are no leverage for Europe which in turn makes Turkey appear totally uncapable of acting if these Eurofighters would be sanctioned by the Eurofighter consortium e.g. with the refusal of spare parts and ammunition because Turkey does strategically & politically what they do not like.
Turkey has always been very resourceful when it comes to spare parts and modification of systems they would find a way to keep the Eurofighters operational and they know that.

The real problem is in sight of USA & Co when Turkey is able to develop weapons systems that really have a significant capability, even in the opinion of the Western states, and then export them to Pakistan and other countries, for example.
Then an era of war by the USA & Co. in the Middle East etc. on country XY ends. Because war is their business.
Then war becomes very expensive for the USA because the opponent may have weapons systems of NATO standard/quality, in the USA wars run together with public opinion, nobody gives a shit if a country at the other end of the world is bombed into the Stone Age, but everything tips over if too many US soldiers bite the dust then you have the same situation as in Vietnam.

Off course, the "West" does see Turkey as a competitor
There's no infinite growth.
When Turkey expands influence and power it does so at the expense of other powers.

In Caucasus the French, USA wielded influence for 30 years through Minsk-Group without producing any results.
Now Azerbaijan calls the shots in Caucasus, Russia and Turkey share the remaining influence.
In Libya they were wielding influence and exploiting Libya's ressources, now Russia and Turkey decide what happens in Libya.

In Sahel, Balkans, Somalia, Qatar, Libya, Caucasus everywhere Turkish influence expands it does so at the expense of someone else.

They do not like Turkey, they don't want Turkey to expand influence to their disadvantage.
Turkey is expanding with military capabilities into those regions.
Hence, they try to restrict Turkish military capabilities.