Turkish American relationship

[Turko]

What does it mean? For instance, they won't supply F16s? Either they won't sell ESSMs?

 

[Zafer]

What does it mean? For instance, they won't supply F16s? Either they won't sell ESSMs?

No, not just yet. But I guess we will be saving some money going forward as we won't be buying American anymore.

 

[mulj]

Those sanction is like one more knot on rope is tightened, you are still on loose side of it but coming to the point where you will either cut that rope or be choked on it. Hope counter move from Turkey will bring things in some sort of fragile balance.

 

[the]

Could someone help clarify?

1. So Turkey had a significant role in producing the F35 and was promised early acquirement.
2. Turkey wished to purchase a long range AA system of which the (Patriot, S400, Chinese FD-2000, SAMPT-T)
3. Patriot systems = too expensive / lack of technology transfer, SAMPT-T = semi technology transfer, FD-2000 = EU and USA warned Turkey that it could not be integrated with NATO, S400 = partial technology transfer / best theoretical performance.
4. After several years of eliminating possible options, Turkey decided on purchasing the S400 system in 2017.

Am I missing something? Why would Turkey choose to purchase a system that was bound to cause sanctions? Yes, it has the best theorectical performance/range, but was the high likelihood of being removed from the F35 project worth it?

The only addition I can think of is the possible consequences of downing the Russian Jet over Syria in 2015, therefore, Turkey was forced into buying weapons to prevent any Russian response.

 

[the]

If Turkey had somehow comprimised with technology transfer (until HISAR project develops), then right now Turkey would hold Patriots + F35 (of which the B variant that is compatible with TCG Anadolu).

 

[Saithan]

If Turkey had somehow comprimised with technology transfer (until HISAR project develops), then right now Turkey would hold Patriots + F35 (of which the B variant that is compatible with TCG Anadolu).

Turkey actually postponed delivery of F35 because of some tech issues, in the meantime Israel got the F35A, and decided to lobby against Turkey getting F35.

ppl can correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[the]

Turkey actually postponed delivery of F35 because of some tech issues, in the meantime Israel got the F35A, and decided to lobby against Turkey getting F35.

ppl can correct me if I’m wrong.

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. Not sure why there's such hatred against Turkey from Israel, yes Erdoğan openly remarks about the Palestinian struggle but its largerly political talk. As long as you are not Iran's side then I don't see why Isreal would really lobby against you. Even now its mostly postive talk e.g. ongoing talks about maritime borders.

 

[guest12]

Could someone help clarify?

1. So Turkey had a significant role in producing the F35 and was promised early acquirement.
2. Turkey wished to purchase a long range AA system of which the (Patriot, S400, Chinese FD-2000, SAMPT-T)
3. Patriot systems = too expensive / lack of technology transfer, SAMPT-T = semi technology transfer, FD-2000 = EU and USA warned Turkey that it could not be integrated with NATO, S400 = partial technology transfer / best theoretical performance.
4. After several years of eliminating possible options, Turkey decided on purchasing the S400 system in 2017.

Am I missing something? Why would Turkey choose to purchase a system that was bound to cause sanctions? Yes, it has the best theorectical performance/range, but was the high likelihood of being removed from the F35 project worth it?

The only addition I can think of is the possible consequences of downing the Russian Jet over Syria in 2015, therefore, Turkey was forced into buying weapons to prevent any Russian response.

1-Nothing critical really fuselage and equal stuff.
2-Patriot since early 2000s.
3-Patriot-U.S. always refused to sell and same goes for SAMP-T(France).
4-First decided on FD-2000 from China as at the time Russia was only willing to sell some old S300 variant then this deal stopped as U.S. finally decided to sell Patriot but without any tech transfer(which U.S. provided to many of its NATO allies in the past so this was a middle finger) and what more Turkiye requested confidence againts any possible Congress veto none given so even Turkey were to attempt to buy Patriot Congress would simply veto it at last second.Then Russia offered S-400 and goverment decided to go with S-400.

 

[Ecderha]

Could someone help clarify?

1. So Turkey had a significant role in producing the F35 and was promised early acquirement.
2. Turkey wished to purchase a long range AA system of which the (Patriot, S400, Chinese FD-2000, SAMPT-T)
3. Patriot systems = too expensive / lack of technology transfer, SAMPT-T = semi technology transfer, FD-2000 = EU and USA warned Turkey that it could not be integrated with NATO, S400 = partial technology transfer / best theoretical performance.
4. After several years of eliminating possible options, Turkey decided on purchasing the S400 system in 2017.

Am I missing something? Why would Turkey choose to purchase a system that was bound to cause sanctions? Yes, it has the best theorectical performance/range, but was the high likelihood of being removed from the F35 project worth it?

The only addition I can think of is the possible consequences of downing the Russian Jet over Syria in 2015, therefore, Turkey was forced into buying weapons to prevent any Russian response.

You missing main things here:

• So Turkey had a significant role in producing the F35 and was promised early acquirement? - Turkiye is a partner in the Program. It is more then role for production. I mean ( missiles,software, updates own by Turkiye but part of fighter armament )
• Turkey wished to purchase a long range AA system of which the (Patriot, S400, Chinese FD-2000, SAMPT-T)? - No First Turkiye agree to buy USA Patriots which were bring in Turkiye to defend it early years against Syria. But later on as we all know true face of USA policy was start to change and they refuse to sell them.
• Then this happend-> Next thing was that Turkiye start procurement for long range missiles which 1. Were selected Patrots but again USA did't sell them. 2 Turkiye went for second candidate EU but there was obstacles 3. then Turkiye went for China missile but USA put a soft sanctions this gonna too long and for Turkiye it was become obviousthat USA doеs't want Turkiye to have any long range missiles at that time. So Turkyie was pushed to the corner and It happened what we know S400 was selected for survival of Turkiye on possible USA becoming real enemy of Turkiye state

And the last thing which is with most impotence. It is in following order: USA sided with PKK giving to them ( Money, Intelligence , Training, Advisers, Weapons and helping them to start campaign for attacks on south east of Turkiye country side. At same time PKK keep killing Syrians civilians (don't forget Assad army started kill civilians first but later when USA start to be involved they start supporting PKK to kill civilians too for creating Kurdistan). So Turkiye was pushed and there were no choice just start to accept reality i mean Civilians running to Turkiye from Assad army and PKK terrorists both kill them.
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Things even become more worst for Turkiye I mean they were so many cases leading that not only USA but partially Germany,France with their action they harm Turkiye big time.

Turkiye got the worst time in resent history->
1. Civilian WAR in south east! Each day there were coming dead people Policemen, Soldiers, Teachers, Family of above people was targets too all were killed by PKK in most brutal way
2. USA start creating bases and border point against Turkiye border in Syria to protect PKK terrorists and they new Kurdistan.
3. Coup in Turkiye organized by USA and FETO Islamist head living in USA.
4. Initial embargo's from Allies (USA,Germany,France,Holland etc.)
5. Political trolling and fabricating stories that Turkiye to blame for Syria etc.
6. Paid media start campaign twisting the reality like Turkiye stealing Syrian oil ( which was never true but USA did it and still doing it). Turkiye killng so called freedom fighters but not ISIS ( which was not true again Turkiye killed more ISIS then all other together ) ...... and more so I am trying to say that in real live actions and reactions matters.

So first thing first Syrian dictator Assad started civil war and Turkiye did't react back then, but expect to do react with Allies.
But what happened is that Allies (psudo Allies for me) came to Turkiye and start creating issues by supporting/helping PKK and (Turkiye) saw that allies ( psudo allies ) did had own agenda. Doing all to implement things that was against Turkiye sovereignty so Turkiye react to that Allies planing.

Then Russia/Iran came they thought that they can put more pressure on Turkiye, but again Turkiye react to that treat too in good fashion
So at end Turkiye survive paying the all with big losses (I mean civilian were safe. The real face of so called allies was seen and independence was applied. Russia/Iran/Assad were repelled. So at present days we still see that all are with bitter faces i mean they did't expect that Turkiye will survive all this.

 

[Nilgiri]

Well, it passed with super majority, so there won't be any legal grounds for Trump to veto it.

He has to sign it. I am not sure he can avoid a lawsuit if he rejects to sign it.

No it just wont be signed by him, super majority pass by legislature does not need executive to sign off on it for it to become law.

It has happened before.

 

[Turko]

I am worried about TurAF. How would fight 250 F16s without AMRAAMs and Sidewinders and etc. ? Moreover maintenance of F16s how could be possible under sanctions?

 

[Turko]

No it just wont be signed by him, super majority pass by legislature does not need executive to sign off on it for it to become law.

It has happened before.

Pompeo imposed CAATSA however Trump rejected NDAA sanctions.
Two different mechanism ..

 

[Saithan]

I am worried about TurAF. How would fight 250 F16s without AMRAAMs and Sidewinders and etc. ? Moreover maintenance of F16s how could be possible under sanctions?

Those are our planes, we can maintain them ourselves. It’s only procurement that is affected.

 

[Oublious]

Could someone help clarify?

1. So Turkey had a significant role in producing the F35 and was promised early acquirement.
2. Turkey wished to purchase a long range AA system of which the (Patriot, S400, Chinese FD-2000, SAMPT-T)
3. Patriot systems = too expensive / lack of technology transfer, SAMPT-T = semi technology transfer, FD-2000 = EU and USA warned Turkey that it could not be integrated with NATO, S400 = partial technology transfer / best theoretical performance.
4. After several years of eliminating possible options, Turkey decided on purchasing the S400 system in 2017.

Am I missing something? Why would Turkey choose to purchase a system that was bound to cause sanctions? Yes, it has the best theorectical performance/range, but was the high likelihood of being removed from the F35 project worth it?

The only addition I can think of is the possible consequences of downing the Russian Jet over Syria in 2015, therefore, Turkey was forced into buying weapons to prevent any Russian response.

Turkey have asked Patriot from begin of the 90's, they didn't gived or they demanded that they will operate the systems. Each time house of representative veto'd, Turkey can do nothing. Fault is made by America.

 

[what]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1338551811490377728

T70 not part of the sanctions? Only future projects are included and ongoing ones wont be affected.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1338593946205736961

I think the way it was written the current ongoing projects wont be affected at all. But what about spare parts for F16 for example? How long will these sanctions be in place?

 

[Vergennes]

Expect Turkish-American relations to worsen under the Biden administration. Probably even tougher sanctions.

 

[Saithan]

Expect Turkish-American relations to worsen under the Biden administration. Probably even tougher sanctions.

I was kinda hoping we’d get nukes before we left NATO.

US sanctions on Turkey flout int'l law, Russian FM Lavrov says

The U.S. decision to sanction Turkey over its purchase of the Russian S-400 missile defense system is a typical show of American arrogance and lawlessness,...

www.dailysabah.com

Russia to the rescue.

 

[what]

Russia is ofcourse always interested in widening the rift between Turkey and the US.

I think these sanctions, if Biden doesnt make things worse, are not that bad and hopefully only temporary. But let's use it to our leverage and get less dependent on US material.

 

[Saithan]

US imposes sanctions on Turkey over Russia weapons

Turkey's acquisition of a Russian-made missile defence system has angered other Nato allies.

www.bbc.com

 

[Cabatli_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1338608645572063232

Mr. Demir: Tank and ship projects were affected as much as they could be. We got used to embargoes. We produced solutions and made local counterparts