TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[IC3M@N FX]

Kaan will not be "completed" in the next 20 years. "Full" version is expected about 10 years later, design improvements will keep on coming for at least 15-20 more years after that.

GCAP is a multi nation program, and now a joint venture between the three countries like Eurofighter is. We wouldn't own the IP and wouldn't be a part of the R&D, there are already thousands of people working on it. We could be a second rate participant in the program if they decide to enlarge it, or a user.

I know that TAI KAAN will not end with Block 0 or 1, but will get at least 2-3 more blocks, maybe even a very last so-called Long Term Block as the last upgrade, if everything goes well.
In other words, we are talking about 20-25 years with major hardware and software upgrades at intervals of 4-5 years.
Then you can use the type as a workhorse in the armed forces for a total of maybe 30 years, but then it's over.
It's no longer the case that you can use aircraft types for at least 35-40 years like in the past - research is much faster than in the 70-90s thanks to AI & Co + China.
In addition, there are many more players in the market today and the pressure on all involved aviation industries will increase in the long term due to the need for new innovations, aircraft will at least age faster than before.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

In such technological partnerships, how is technology shared? For example, does one country develop the radar, another the engine, and another the cockpit? While it may not be exactly like this, is there a similar division? Because if I am developing the radar, why would I share its technology with the other partners? Each country likely contributes to the aircraft in the area they are strong in, but they might not gain access to the technologies developed by others. I actually think joint ventures dont involve deep technology sharing.

But a technology transfer always takes place somehow because you get an insight into the technology itself and its manufacturing technology to a certain degree.
Through the contract work of Boeing and Airbus Cargo and passenger aircraft, license construction of the F-16 and the parts of the F-35 + a good portion of research, Turkey has also acquired its own know-how for TAI KAAN, it certainly did not come from a vacuum.
But without this contract work and license construction & Co, Turkey could not even build a glider, you have to be honest. If it were that easy, Iran & Co would have had reasonably modern fighter planes of their own long ago. They're still clucking around with old Tomcats & Co....

 

[Fuzuli NL]

 

[2033]

But a technology transfer always takes place somehow because you get an insight into the technology itself and its manufacturing technology to a certain degree.
Through the contract work of Boeing and Airbus Cargo and passenger aircraft, license construction of the F-16 and the parts of the F-35 + a good portion of research, Turkey has also acquired its own know-how for TAI KAAN, it certainly did not come from a vacuum.
But without this contract work and license construction & Co, Turkey could not even build a glider, you have to be honest. If it were that easy, Iran & Co would have had reasonably modern fighter planes of their own long ago. They're still clucking around with old Tomcats & Co....

Turkey's licensed production was undoubtedly an important starting for us, but no other country engaged in similar production has reached the level we have achieved. In a short time, we have accomplished success that only a few countries are capable of. Specifically, we have reached a strong position in unmanned aerial vehicles. The technology of the future will be MUM-T (Manned-Unmanned Teaming). Our experience with UAVs will be highly beneficial for us in the field of MUM-T as well.

Do you think it is wise to share these achievements with the Tempest/GCAP partners?

On the other hand, we are located in a region where political tensions are always a possibility. The partners might try to pressure us for political reasons...

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Turkey's licensed production was undoubtedly an important starting for us, but no other country engaged in similar production has reached the level we have achieved. In a short time, we have accomplished success that only a few countries are capable of. Specifically, we have reached a strong position in unmanned aerial vehicles. The technology of the future will be MUM-T (Manned-Unmanned Teaming). Our experience with UAVs will be highly beneficial for us in the field of MUM-T as well.

Do you think it is wise to share these achievements with the Tempest/GCAP partners?

On the other hand, we are located in a region where political tensions are always a possibility. The partners might try to pressure us for political reasons...

Please don't be angry with me, I don't want to drag our industry into the mud and make it look bad. They really have achieved incredible things in just 15 years - nobody questions that, not even foreign countries.
But countries like Great Britain, Japan, France and even Germany and Italy are at least 10 years ahead of us technologically in aircraft construction.
I'm not talking about drones and their targeting software - that's a whole separate chapter.
They all don't have own GEN 5 aircraft, not because they can't do it, but because the political and economic will wasn't there to develop one. But that has nothing to do with the fact that they can't do it. The fact that they are venturing directly into GEN 6 aircraft such as FCAS and Tempest shows that they already have the basic prerequisites for developing a GEN 5 aircraft.

They skip GEN 5 as a separate aircraft because they see no significant added value between a Rafaele/Eurofighter and GEN 5 aircraft. They go straight to GEN 6. If Turkey had developed a GEN 4.5 aircraft with similar parameters as a Rafaele/Eurofighter say 10-15 years ago. I am 1000% sure they would never have developed KAAN as a 5 GEN and would have gone straight to GEN 6.
Because the gap between an absolute high-end aircraft of the GEN 4.5 and 5 GEN is not so extremly serious.

 

[Nutuk]

A serious question, how likely is it that Turkey will participate in the Tempest project after completion of the TAI KAAN project (serial machine), say in 5-6 years. E.g. preliminary talks in 2-3 years to join the Tempest project and run it parallel as a future investment + technology transfer.
In addition, a production line for parts would give us a second mainstay.
Call me crazy, but I keep hearing that the UK and Italy are seeking closer cooperation with Turkey.
Somehow I get the feeling that they could be taking a multi-pronged approach. Turkey will always strive for independence and develop its own fighter aircraft, but it will also look for synergies to keep its own product at the cutting edge of technology.

Both Italy with Leonardo and the UK with BAE have signalled their intention to work together on various projects, e.g. Baykar through Italy and BAE with Turkey Eurofighter and other Projects.

Question would be "Why would we be interested in joining Tempest while we have Kaan"

Goes against every notion of our aim of being "independent"

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Question would be "Why would we be interested in joining Tempest while we have Kaan"

Goes against every notion of our aim of being "independent"

I'm not saying that they have to do it absolutely without ifs and buts, but if the conditions are good they should definitely go along with it, that's immense know-how they get.

Do you know how pissed off Germany was when the UK & Co asked Germany to disclose the data of the Eurofighter and its technical parameters and the German subcomponents, which are under the strictest secrecy, and handed it over to Turkey for the pre-sale phase.
I'm not talking about what was made and how it is made, but the performance data and how their systems work.
The Germans know that with the Eurofighter deal, they are handing over a passive/active technology transfer, and very involuntarily they are not happy about it .

They know that it will give the Turkish defence industry a huge boost, not to mention the maintenance/repair knowledge they will gain, not to mention reverse engineering .

 

[Huelague]

Question would be "Why would we be interested in joining Tempest while we have Kaan"

Goes against every notion of our aim of being "independent"

A partnership doesn’t mean lost of independence. Tempest partnership means less technology value or strategic than a economical value and an access to market of industrial states.

 

[Nutuk]

And you know this how? You have access to state secrets?

Or you just speculate?

Tempest or Eurofighter are just platforms, sure the platform has to be good, fast and stealth but more important is what you put inside like optronics, radars, engine, self defence suite, armament etc.

Why give all that up for Tempest? One has to think very carefully especially if we are not behind in technologies like "loyal wingman" like drones, own link system and AI.

Kaan gives Turkiye an unique boost that no Tempest can give, just saying!

 

[Huelague]

Give and take. What would we give and what will we get in return.
We would not give up Kaan for any joint venture or partnership. That is impossible. See it as a replacement for „F-35 project“. You can have two project simultaneously. Germany will have (F-35, FCAS), GB will have (F-35, Tempest), we have (F-36, Kaan) and many others have.
We will not give up anything. This was a mistake that Türkiye will not do twice again.

 

[Nutuk]

FCAS and TEMPEST are project that are behind Kaan, we have already a flying prototype.

The only area we are behind is engine technology and also there we are catching up. You guys think Tempest will be better? I have severe doubts, look at Baykar how important own product is would Baykar have been this successful if it had partnered in a consortium and be one of the 4?

Turkiye has to leap ahead, there is a whole world out there trying to get out of western shackles, a whole world that can be our customer. IMHO joining an equal level project as Kaan is stepping back not forward.

We can partner yes but with 6th, 7th generation as we are already at 5th gen (which Tempest is too)

 

[Huelague]

FCAS and TEMPEST are project that are behind Kaan, we have already a flying prototype.

Behind in what? Design? Material? RAM? Engine? Weapons? E/O suits? Experience?..
They are behind in schedule (time)

We don’t know in which parameters Tempest will surpass Kaan, because Tempest parameters are not published

Our partnership with LM and General Dynamics (F-16, F-35), is one reason why we are able to produce Kaan that fast. We benefits from this partnership heavily.
Baykars success is closely connected with Selcuks study on MIT (Access to Western know how).

About whole market, Kaan is not a cheap plane, not every country can afford such a plane. An access to „rich countries“ can be an advantage for us.

As far as I know, Tempest will be a 6.gen fighter jet.

Edit
Their was always a Bloc within EU. A German-France and a GB - Türkiye „axis“. This project is not only a military one, but also a strategically.

 

[Nutuk]

The French do not have high hopes anymore in the FCAS project, too many differences with Germany and looking more like a repeat on the Eurofighter which France left to build her own Rafale.

Britain already partners Italy and Japan, Turkiye would come in as a small 4th partner. Why help Rolls Royce and Leonardo grow, care for our own TAI and TEI!!!!

I am against such teaming for a 5th gen. fighter, while we are already halfway with our own 5th gen.

 

[2033]

The European nEUROn project also failed to succeed. Joint initiatives mostly end in failure. At best, they are delayed by 10 years. We are not dependent on Europe. There is no political unity in Europe; projects are hindered by bureaucratic obstacles and end up being very costly. I believe the U.S. intelligence services are deliberately slowing down these projects.

Staying away from European projects is the best course of action.

 

[Nutuk]

Secondly nobody speaks it up, we were also partner in the F35 program. What happened?

Who says a Britain (who did not give our ships in WW1) will not at a point when their interest requires so kick Turkiye out of the Tempest program? What guarantees are there?

I do not think that a tempest program is even remotely worth to sacrifice our own jet program for it.

 

[Nutuk]

As far as I know, Tempest will be a 6.gen fighter jet.

Nobody even knows yet the definition of 6th generation.

What features will Tempest have that Kaan does not, let us discuss the features. Let's make the differences visible and argue on that.


Here let me start with the only feature I know in which the Tempest can be better and that feature has to be designed yet:
- engine! The British plan to design an engine for the Tempest that can generate much more electrical power than "classical" jet engines so that the aircraft does not need auxiliary generators (F35 has 3 generators, Kaan has 2)

 

[Saithan]

Well I can skip most of what I wanted to say, thanks to @Nutuk

Those who are talking about ToT, Cooperation, and that we're behind. And others go on to 6.gen.

Those countries you mention have no problem buying F35, nor any issue getting flight codes from US whenever they need and want them. So wake up and get real.

It has been said before, you can only get by with ToT to a certain point. beyond that it's all about your own R&D, and just like you build a fucking house, you do it step by step, and you imprint that knowledge and learn how to use it.

It's the same as buying a chocolate bar, or a machine that makes the chocolate for you, but you can't build that chocolate machine yourself unless you have done it, and have knowhow from extensive R&D.

We must continue on the path we've chosen and we will succeed. of course we'd wish it was in 2 years, but that's because we know the world is going to shit, and we don't really have any allies that backs us up with proper armament. Even the EF is another noose to delay us, but it's necessary. because of the US.

 

[Azeri441]

Nobody even knows yet the definition of 6th generation.

What features will Tempest have that Kaan does not, let us discuss the features. Let's make the differences visible and argue on that.


Here let me start with the only feature I know in which the Tempest can be better and that feature has to be designed yet:
- engine! The British plan to design an engine for the Tempest that can generate much more electrical power than "classical" jet engines so that the aircraft does not need auxiliary generators (F35 has 3 generators, Kaan has 2)

Main part of 6th gen is for the aircraft to be optionally manned, thats why US considers B-21 a 6th gen aircraft

 

[Yasar_TR]

Nobody even knows yet the definition of 6th generation.

Yes and no!

Secondly nobody speaks it up, we were also partner in the F35 program. What happened?

In all partnerships there is always a leader or a captain. How much pull this leader has differs as to how the partnership is designed.

In F35, US always had the main control. All other countries were so called “partners”. US allowed their plane to be shared/sold freely to those so called partner states.
In the case of Typhoon, a more equal share of partnership was designed. Although the program was initiated by UK, other 3 partners were made “equal-say” partners.

What makes a sixth generation plane was discussed here many times;
Adaptive cycle engines
Increased stealthiness
Self repair capabilities
Unmanned flight possibilities with more AI input
Network centric defensive capabilities more advanced than 5th gen
Widespread use of directed energy weapons.
etc etc etc

If we get back to the Tempest situation; The main partner here is UK. The driving force behind the technology are two defence giants : Rolls Royce and BAE Systems. Both these companies were instrumental in the development of the F35 and F35B jets. Also Leonardo UK and MBDA UK have shared interests with Italian and UK governments. Then you have Italy with Leonardo and Avio Aero (a GE company in Italy). Then in Japan with IHI (produces for GE Aviation, Pratt & Whitney, and Rolls-Royce Holdings) and Mitsubishi (partners with Boeing).

Rather than merging with a consortium like that, since it would kill our KAAN project altogether, it could be advantageous to run along side it with a Tempest programme, which could bring to our doorstep many technologies without having to pay for the R&D costs for them. Which in turn can be used for our KAAN project.
As our KAAN is going to be the poor man’s F22, a partnership like that can also open avenues of sales for our KAAN to many western countries.
The important point here is to preserve the indigenousness of our KAAN to allow us to have unhindered autonomy over it.

So in a round about way I sympathise with what you are saying.

 

[uçuyorum]

No one is inviting us to GCAP or Tempest that I know of