TR TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

[Nutuk]

And you know this how? You have access to state secrets?

Or you just speculate?

Tempest or Eurofighter are just platforms, sure the platform has to be good, fast and stealth but more important is what you put inside like optronics, radars, engine, self defence suite, armament etc.

Why give all that up for Tempest? One has to think very carefully especially if we are not behind in technologies like "loyal wingman" like drones, own link system and AI.

Kaan gives Turkiye an unique boost that no Tempest can give, just saying!

 

[Huelague]

Give and take. What would we give and what will we get in return.
We would not give up Kaan for any joint venture or partnership. That is impossible. See it as a replacement for „F-35 project“. You can have two project simultaneously. Germany will have (F-35, FCAS), GB will have (F-35, Tempest), we have (F-36, Kaan) and many others have.
We will not give up anything. This was a mistake that Türkiye will not do twice again.

 

[Nutuk]

FCAS and TEMPEST are project that are behind Kaan, we have already a flying prototype.

The only area we are behind is engine technology and also there we are catching up. You guys think Tempest will be better? I have severe doubts, look at Baykar how important own product is would Baykar have been this successful if it had partnered in a consortium and be one of the 4?

Turkiye has to leap ahead, there is a whole world out there trying to get out of western shackles, a whole world that can be our customer. IMHO joining an equal level project as Kaan is stepping back not forward.

We can partner yes but with 6th, 7th generation as we are already at 5th gen (which Tempest is too)

 

[Huelague]

FCAS and TEMPEST are project that are behind Kaan, we have already a flying prototype.

Behind in what? Design? Material? RAM? Engine? Weapons? E/O suits? Experience?..
They are behind in schedule (time)

We don’t know in which parameters Tempest will surpass Kaan, because Tempest parameters are not published

Our partnership with LM and General Dynamics (F-16, F-35), is one reason why we are able to produce Kaan that fast. We benefits from this partnership heavily.
Baykars success is closely connected with Selcuks study on MIT (Access to Western know how).

About whole market, Kaan is not a cheap plane, not every country can afford such a plane. An access to „rich countries“ can be an advantage for us.

As far as I know, Tempest will be a 6.gen fighter jet.

Edit
Their was always a Bloc within EU. A German-France and a GB - Türkiye „axis“. This project is not only a military one, but also a strategically.

 

[Nutuk]

The French do not have high hopes anymore in the FCAS project, too many differences with Germany and looking more like a repeat on the Eurofighter which France left to build her own Rafale.

Britain already partners Italy and Japan, Turkiye would come in as a small 4th partner. Why help Rolls Royce and Leonardo grow, care for our own TAI and TEI!!!!

I am against such teaming for a 5th gen. fighter, while we are already halfway with our own 5th gen.

 

[2033]

The European nEUROn project also failed to succeed. Joint initiatives mostly end in failure. At best, they are delayed by 10 years. We are not dependent on Europe. There is no political unity in Europe; projects are hindered by bureaucratic obstacles and end up being very costly. I believe the U.S. intelligence services are deliberately slowing down these projects.

Staying away from European projects is the best course of action.

 

[Nutuk]

Secondly nobody speaks it up, we were also partner in the F35 program. What happened?

Who says a Britain (who did not give our ships in WW1) will not at a point when their interest requires so kick Turkiye out of the Tempest program? What guarantees are there?

I do not think that a tempest program is even remotely worth to sacrifice our own jet program for it.

 

[Nutuk]

As far as I know, Tempest will be a 6.gen fighter jet.

Nobody even knows yet the definition of 6th generation.

What features will Tempest have that Kaan does not, let us discuss the features. Let's make the differences visible and argue on that.


Here let me start with the only feature I know in which the Tempest can be better and that feature has to be designed yet:
- engine! The British plan to design an engine for the Tempest that can generate much more electrical power than "classical" jet engines so that the aircraft does not need auxiliary generators (F35 has 3 generators, Kaan has 2)

 

[Saithan]

Well I can skip most of what I wanted to say, thanks to @Nutuk

Those who are talking about ToT, Cooperation, and that we're behind. And others go on to 6.gen.

Those countries you mention have no problem buying F35, nor any issue getting flight codes from US whenever they need and want them. So wake up and get real.

It has been said before, you can only get by with ToT to a certain point. beyond that it's all about your own R&D, and just like you build a fucking house, you do it step by step, and you imprint that knowledge and learn how to use it.

It's the same as buying a chocolate bar, or a machine that makes the chocolate for you, but you can't build that chocolate machine yourself unless you have done it, and have knowhow from extensive R&D.

We must continue on the path we've chosen and we will succeed. of course we'd wish it was in 2 years, but that's because we know the world is going to shit, and we don't really have any allies that backs us up with proper armament. Even the EF is another noose to delay us, but it's necessary. because of the US.

 

[Azeri441]

Nobody even knows yet the definition of 6th generation.

What features will Tempest have that Kaan does not, let us discuss the features. Let's make the differences visible and argue on that.


Here let me start with the only feature I know in which the Tempest can be better and that feature has to be designed yet:
- engine! The British plan to design an engine for the Tempest that can generate much more electrical power than "classical" jet engines so that the aircraft does not need auxiliary generators (F35 has 3 generators, Kaan has 2)

Main part of 6th gen is for the aircraft to be optionally manned, thats why US considers B-21 a 6th gen aircraft

 

[Yasar_TR]

Nobody even knows yet the definition of 6th generation.

Yes and no!

Secondly nobody speaks it up, we were also partner in the F35 program. What happened?

In all partnerships there is always a leader or a captain. How much pull this leader has differs as to how the partnership is designed.

In F35, US always had the main control. All other countries were so called “partners”. US allowed their plane to be shared/sold freely to those so called partner states.
In the case of Typhoon, a more equal share of partnership was designed. Although the program was initiated by UK, other 3 partners were made “equal-say” partners.

What makes a sixth generation plane was discussed here many times;
Adaptive cycle engines
Increased stealthiness
Self repair capabilities
Unmanned flight possibilities with more AI input
Network centric defensive capabilities more advanced than 5th gen
Widespread use of directed energy weapons.
etc etc etc

If we get back to the Tempest situation; The main partner here is UK. The driving force behind the technology are two defence giants : Rolls Royce and BAE Systems. Both these companies were instrumental in the development of the F35 and F35B jets. Also Leonardo UK and MBDA UK have shared interests with Italian and UK governments. Then you have Italy with Leonardo and Avio Aero (a GE company in Italy). Then in Japan with IHI (produces for GE Aviation, Pratt & Whitney, and Rolls-Royce Holdings) and Mitsubishi (partners with Boeing).

Rather than merging with a consortium like that, since it would kill our KAAN project altogether, it could be advantageous to run along side it with a Tempest programme, which could bring to our doorstep many technologies without having to pay for the R&D costs for them. Which in turn can be used for our KAAN project.
As our KAAN is going to be the poor man’s F22, a partnership like that can also open avenues of sales for our KAAN to many western countries.
The important point here is to preserve the indigenousness of our KAAN to allow us to have unhindered autonomy over it.

So in a round about way I sympathise with what you are saying.

 

[uçuyorum]

No one is inviting us to GCAP or Tempest that I know of

 

[Saithan]

Which is why it is redundant to fantasize about it and fill the thread with unnecessary clutter.

100 KAAN flying and launching all missiles in our arsenal (that it can) can change things. But anything before that is an attempt to disrupt our walk towards independence.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Secondly nobody speaks it up, we were also partner in the F35 program. What happened?

Who says a Britain (who did not give our ships in WW1) will not at a point when their interest requires so kick Turkiye out of the Tempest program? What guarantees are there?

I do not think that a tempest program is even remotely worth to sacrifice our own jet program for it.

It's not about giving something up, but cooperation on a GEN 6 aircraft really makes sense.
TAI KAAN as a GEN 5 makes sense because Turkey does not have its own GEN 4.5 fighter aircraft, and they will not give up this aircraft either, everyone is sure of that.
It is simply about having an aircraft from 2045 as an absolute high-end superiority fighter, TAI KAAN and I am 100% sure that with Block 3 or 4 at the latest will become more of a multi-role fighter than a superiority fighter in terms of profile.
Because the platform as it was designed can no longer fulfill its original mission because its design is outdated.
This has happened with the F-15, Rafaele and the Eurofighter.

Turkey with the British, Italians and Japanese have not had a troublesome foreign policy in the last 20 years. So we are talking about a strategic cooperation here, of course nobody can rule out that it will go well and not stumble....we could fall flat on our faces again as with the F-35 project.
But look what Turkey has gained from the F-35 development in terms of know-how and active/passive technology transfer alone, which has been a huge benefit.

 

[Saithan]

You fail to understand that if we are not invited to the table, then there is nothing we can do.

And to be invited to the table requires more than "not have had any problems with".

 

[dBSPL]

KAAN is an optionaly manned combatant platform according to the roadmap. This needs to be reminded from time to time.

Secondly, there are aviation companies in Turkiye too, working on AI-Human cognitive interfaces, one of which is HAVELSAN. Thanks to the KAAN project, we have already started to work concretely on many technologies that will form the basis of the 6th generation in the future.

 

[Saithan]

I just posted under science a tweet about US restricting Türkiyes access to AI tech. There goes your wet dream of 6.gen

 

[IC3M@N FX]

You fail to understand that if we are not invited to the table, then there is nothing we can do.

And to be invited to the table requires more than "not have had any problems with".

I know , but we are only talking hypothetically about whether there would be a benefit for Turkish industry if we were invited to join the consortium.

 

[IC3M@N FX]

I just posted under science a tweet about US restricting Türkiyes access to AI tech. There goes your wet dream of 6.gen

This shot will definitely backfire because you will now see a lot more countries getting together in a working group and developing GPU/AI design and sending it as contract work to FABs in China, Taiwan or South Korea for production in a reasonably modern manufacturing facility.

This has already been more or less confirmed by many experts that they will then develop their own designs or simply source their chips from China.
The USA has nothing to say and the new rules for AI chips prove that they are fighting back to avoid being overtaken.

 

[Huelague]

This shot will definitely backfire because you will now see a lot more countries getting together in a working group and developing GPU/AI design and sending it as contract work to FABs in China, Taiwan or South Korea for production in a reasonably modern manufacturing facility.

This has already been more or less confirmed by many experts that they will then develop their own designs or simply source their chips from China.
The USA has nothing to say and the new rules for AI chips prove that they are fighting back to avoid being overtaken.

Not to mention that Trump is not the biggest „buddy“ of UK. And UK has to find its own ways and new „buddy’s“ like Türkiye.