India HAL Tejas Program

[Gessler]

News on the Mk-2!

Maiden flight approaching for India’s Tejas Mk2 light fighter

India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is targeting the end of 2025 or beginning of 2026 for the first flight of the new Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) Tejas Mk2 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

www.flightglobal.com

Important excerpts:

India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is targeting the end of 2025 or beginning of 2026 for the first flight of the new Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) Tejas Mk2 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Speaking with FlightGlobal at the Aero India air show in Bengaluru, LCA Mk2 Project Director V. Madhusudana Rao says construction of the first prototype is underway, and that over 55% of the required parts have been manufactured.

The first prototype’s wings and forward fuselage are almost ready, with activities related to the manufacture of the centre fuselage already completed and production of the rear fuselage to commence shortly.

Rao says the ADA has six F414 INS-6 engines, which have been modified and qualified for use on prototype aircraft. He notes the complete propulsion system was integrated and tested on a ground testbed for the first time in January.

@Nilgiri

I wouldn't bet on the first flight any time before 2026, and that's speaking conservatively & assuming the rollout happens this year. But it's good to know the progress on construction of the first airframe. The iron bird method seems to be working out well so post-assembly testing would be comparatively minimal. The ongoing AeroIndia also had a fully-engineered cockpit simulator of the Mk-2:

Can't wait to see the rollout of the first prototype!

 

[Zapper]

Also, as per this report the number of Mk-2 models has been increased from 106 to ~200!

Just as well....we're gonna be needing a whole lot of 4.5 gen single-engine planes if we want to approach any conflict with a high sortie rate throughout. All those flashy Rafales, MKI-Upgrades & AMCAs are well & good, but without the backbone of single-engine jets which put up the bulk of sorties flying CAP & CAS, defending the airspace & preparing the conditions for Air Superiority & Strike platforms to come and exploit, that would truly make the difference in determining if we can maintain the Air war long enough to turn the tide.

I'm glad we never swayed from a Western engine (F404/414) on the Tejas platforms...we'd never be able to put up the required sortie rate & flight hours per year with a Russian powerplant.

Shouldn't we plan on having a backup with the Russian or French engines since US is known to choke supply if we ever remotely go against their interests! The # of jets we produce will highly be dependent on them and irrespective of MWF or AMCA's capabilities, we can only have numbers what the Americans think is right

With our dwindling squadron numbers, IAF should prioritize increasing the fleet size over sortie rate or flight hours at this point

I guess that is an important point. Unfortunately it is also an argument against using other non-western engines (eg Indian) in Indian-designed fighters. I guess that that without investing the equivalent of many billions of dollars in coming years, India will not be able to join the 3 countries capable of designing and building fast jet engines distinctly superior to Russian engines. It's a strategic choice: refuse to pay for sovereignty and you don't get it.

 

[Gessler]

Shouldn't we plan on having a backup with the Russian or French engines since US is known to choke supply if we ever remotely go against their interests! The # of jets we produce will highly be dependent on them and irrespective of MWF or AMCA's capabilities, we can only have numbers what the Americans think is right

With our dwindling squadron numbers, IAF should prioritize increasing the fleet size over sortie rate or flight hours at this point

Ideally, yes there should be an alternative engine. Also ideally, we should continue working on Kaveri so it can eventually replace at least the F404 during a future MLU of Mk-1/Mk-1A jets (remember, these airframes will be going through at least 2 or even 3 engines over their lifetime).

I think the reason we're avoiding Russian engines is because if we go with them as an alternative, the entire squadron rulebook & SOPs have to be changed. There'll be a drastic difference in number of flight hours. French engines will be more comparable to the US ones, but there's no French engine we can buy today in the ~100kN range to substitute F414. The M88-2 is only a 73kN engine, so even lower than F404 (85kN).

There are variants of M88 that can push as high as 100kN (F414 class), but these are unproven. It'll cost a lot to fund their testing & full-scale certification...on top of whatever it costs to certify the LCA with a new engine, which is gonna be expensive in of itself.

In short - it all comes down to money. Given how underfunded our programs are, spending large sums on certifying the LCA with alternative engines is pretty much never gonna happen unless GOI treats this as a strategic necessity.

So far, they haven't.

 

[Nilgiri]

News on the Mk-2!

Maiden flight approaching for India’s Tejas Mk2 light fighter

India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is targeting the end of 2025 or beginning of 2026 for the first flight of the new Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) Tejas Mk2 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

www.flightglobal.com

Important excerpts:

India’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) is targeting the end of 2025 or beginning of 2026 for the first flight of the new Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) Tejas Mk2 Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Speaking with FlightGlobal at the Aero India air show in Bengaluru, LCA Mk2 Project Director V. Madhusudana Rao says construction of the first prototype is underway, and that over 55% of the required parts have been manufactured.

The first prototype’s wings and forward fuselage are almost ready, with activities related to the manufacture of the centre fuselage already completed and production of the rear fuselage to commence shortly.

Rao says the ADA has six F414 INS-6 engines, which have been modified and qualified for use on prototype aircraft. He notes the complete propulsion system was integrated and tested on a ground testbed for the first time in January.

@Nilgiri

I wouldn't bet on the first flight any time before 2026, and that's speaking conservatively & assuming the rollout happens this year. But it's good to know the progress on construction of the first airframe. The iron bird method seems to be working out well so post-assembly testing would be comparatively minimal. The ongoing AeroIndia also had a fully-engineered cockpit simulator of the Mk-2:

View attachment 73484

View attachment 73485

Can't wait to see the rollout of the first prototype!

 

[hugh]

Will Tejas line be discontinued once Mk2 enters service? And how about Mk1a?

 

[Spitfire9]

Will Tejas line be discontinued once Mk2 enters service? And how about Mk1a?

I have been wondering about that for some years.

Nashik was used to assemble Su-30MKI. It is now used to assemble Mk1A. I believe that 12 extra Su-30MKI are being procured. Where will they be assembled?

I doubt that the planned annual number of Tejas has ever been produced so I am pessimistic about plans to produce 16 Mk1A a year starting this FY or next FY.

If 97 more Mk1A are ordered because Mk2 is so far behind schedule, where will Mk2 be assembled? The current order for 83 Mk1A will possibly tie up 3 assembly plants until 2030. An order for an additional 97 would mean the assembly plants would be tied up until the mid-2030's.

Exports? The time to get Tejas exports was when the MiG-21/Mirage users of the world wanted to replace their fleets. There might still be some possibility or two eg Brazil but India missed the export window. Of course, India would need to be able to deliver any export aircraft within a reasonable time. What chance is there of that?

I would say that with TOT from HAL, a private company should have started being included in Tejas assembly 10 years ago so that by now there would be 2 companies able to assemble fast jets. That was not done but can still be done. The monopoly of a single company in fast jet assembly is not a good idea, particularly the monopoly of an inefficient state-owned company.

If the current HAL monopoly on assembly continues, Mk2 can be expected to meet the same problems that afflicted Tejas/Mk1A.

If you don't change things for the better, things don't change for the better.

 

[Nilgiri]

Where will they be assembled?

Given the criticism the IAF air chief is expressing openly about HAL, there will likely soon be pressure to rope in private companies for production. HAL cannot be allowed to continue to run things into the ground in slow motion given critical nature of squadron strength the IAF now has and will be saddled with for quite some time even in a best case scenario.

 

[Nilgiri]

Things as they stand now according to HAL chairman:

Tejas Production Capacity: [20:24]Tejas Engine Supply: [21:35]GE Engine Delivery: [21:56]HAL Performance: [23:53]

12 engines this year (so I guess 12 aircraft produced given the engines are the chokepoint).

GE will have resolved issues (also explained why) on their side by next year....after which the production capacity (leveraging private sector) will be 24+ per year and expected to be 30 around 2027.

@Gessler

 

[Zapper]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1892454001955733802

 

[Nilgiri]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1892806224002846784

 

[Nilgiri]

Given the criticism the IAF air chief is expressing openly about HAL, there will likely soon be pressure to rope in private companies for production. HAL cannot be allowed to continue to run things into the ground in slow motion given critical nature of squadron strength the IAF now has and will be saddled with for quite some time even in a best case scenario.

Called it!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1893895829192122775

 

[Spitfire9]

Called it!

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1893895829192122775

One thing that concerns me about some Mk1A assembly being transferred away from HAL is that of HAL co-operating in TOT to another assembler. Will HAL co-operate fully or drag its feet?

The benefits of transferring some assembly away from HAL will be mitigated if HAL slows the process down.

 

[Nilgiri]

One thing that concerns me about some Mk1A assembly being transferred away from HAL is that of HAL co-operating in TOT to another assembler. Will HAL co-operate fully or drag its feet?

The benefits of transferring some assembly away from HAL will be mitigated if HAL slows the process down.

HAL is majority owned by the govt and there is no way it can "drag its feet" if told by the govt to do something.

It is not the designer/developer of the aircraft to begin with, that is the ADA (under DRDO).

So it has followed a format much like DRDO developing a missile and then BDL producing it....BDL can't drag its feet if the govt augments production with another entity, public or privately owned (assembly/final integrator or component provider, latter already ongoing).

Examples of this (past HAL and BDL) format ever since the 1980s when it was much more govt-monolithic:

ISRO ---> larsen and toubro and many more private companies, big, medium and small
Brahmos---> godrej et al.
BEL---> (thousands of private suppliers)
just to name a few.

 

[Rajendra Chola]

HAL is majority owned by the govt and there is no way it can "drag its feet" if told by the govt to do something.

It is not the designer/developer of the aircraft to begin with, that is the ADA (under DRDO).

So it has followed a format much like DRDO developing a missile and then BDL producing it....BDL can't drag its feet if the govt augments production with another entity, public or privately owned (assembly/final integrator or component provider, latter already ongoing).

Examples of this (past HAL and BDL) format ever since the 1980s when it was much more govt-monolithic:

ISRO ---> larsen and toubro and many more private companies, big, medium and small
Brahmos---> godrej et al.
BEL---> (thousands of private suppliers)
just to name a few.

Private line for Tejas Mk1A is stupidity at best and it’s a knee jerk reaction news “leaked” to show how serious is MoD. But when actual price comes cos of this new line, MoD will be the first to backtrack. By then this news will no longer be pressing. Just media management.

If MoD is serious bout private line, Mk1A is not the way to go about it. It will not solve the supply chain issues HAL is currently facing. The pvt company will be facing the same supply chain issues HAL is facing. Plus they have to build jigs/fixtures , technicians & operators training etc and it will simply take longer. By then HAL will stabilize itself with 20 mk1A per annum by then.

In effect, India needs another aerospace company. But it needs to start with HTT40 & HJT36. HAL can transfer those designs & since production hasn’t started, cost can be controlled. From there, with the experience gained, they can start working on Tejas MLU in future plus AMCA etc.

and Mk1A is HAL product & not ADA. ADA transferred the design of Mk1 to HAL & all subsequent developments has been of HAL. The ideal private sector to take the lead is Tata Airbus JV plant in Gujarat. HAL can also buy some minority stake in that project to support all future endeavour.

 

[Nilgiri]

Private line for Tejas Mk1A is stupidity at best and it’s a knee jerk reaction news “leaked” to show how serious is MoD. But when actual price comes cos of this new line, MoD will be the first to backtrack. By then this news will no longer be pressing. Just media management.

You are welcome to your opinion. I don't share it given the track record and current order size spread over many coming years.

If you feel you know these matters better than the IAF Air Chief, sure ok.

If they baulk at some price, they should have baulked at the Rafale per unit "made in France" cost for 36 jets....compared to the capital onshoring investment for magnitude more jets.

In the end you get what you have the numbers at hand from your decision making and inefficiencies that are set into suppliers involved. You can analyse it all and work around it with wherewithal on hand to mitigate and hedge at any juncture. Or you dont and you get stuck with even less at hand later and the higher costs to change then.

Missiles and space are super expensive in the end compared to a myriad of things in guns vs butter argument..... maybe India should have called it a day and baulked at "the actual price" of all that and never got started at all....same logic in the end.

If MoD is serious bout private line, Mk1A is not the way to go about it. It will not solve the supply chain issues HAL is currently facing. The pvt company will be facing the same supply chain issues HAL is facing. Plus they have to build jigs/fixtures , technicians & operators training etc and it will simply take longer. By then HAL will stabilize itself with 20 mk1A per annum by then.

Even if things went tic-tac-toe with GE engine delivery, this would have to happen sooner or later given the literal order size and HAL's blob layers. The capital ramp needs to be increased drastically, that much is clear.

It is not taxpayers fault this PSU is this atrociously bad relative to what has been assigned to it here.

Yes you have to input costs into capital and training? And?

This is any different to doing the same under HAL and relying on them exclusively somehow pulling through? Whip needs cracking at some point. Better late than never.

In effect, India needs another aerospace company. But it needs to start with HTT40 & HJT36. HAL can transfer those designs & since production hasn’t started, cost can be controlled. From there, with the experience gained, they can start working on Tejas MLU in future plus AMCA etc.

Maybe HAL can prove execution of those two "Simpler things" and something as critical as Tejas can be be co-produced?.... without whatever blob effect that's entrenched in HAL the Air Chief expresses low confidence in?

Just a thought in basic hedging that should have been done long ago.

and Mk1A is HAL product & not ADA. ADA transferred the design of Mk1 to HAL & all subsequent developments has been of HAL. The ideal private sector to take the lead is Tata Airbus JV plant in Gujarat. HAL can also buy some minority stake in that project to support all future endeavour.

It (IP retention/protection at origin) matters if taxpayers were not the majority stakeholder of HAL to begin with....and the exclusive one for ADA to begin with. The taxpayers elect the authority to oversee where their funding, for the IP they spent on.....goes and is used. No single PSU has some diktat or override regarding this. The IP (taxpayer paid for in the interest of long term collective national defence) is simply transferred to where it needs to go for optimizing long term return. How competent the authority is in doing that is to be analysed. It really is that simple.

Anyway let us see how it goes, Nashik equity transfer proposal and all:

India’s High-Level Panel likely to allow Private Sector to manufacture Tejas Mk1A – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org