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TR Air-Force TF-X KAAN Fighter Jet

Khagan1923

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This guy is cooking Koreans over their remarks on Kaan project. He is listing major outsourced subsystems of KF-21.



KF-21 looks worse than I first anticipated. They are not selling this aircraft to anyone the US doesn't want.
KF-21 is still an impressive project but anyone who actually looked into it knew that only a minority of its parts are actually developed and produced by SK itself. Majority is bought from foreign countries. How else do people think they were able to develop so fast into an serial production ready aircraft?

That is also why already years ago I mentioned that South Korea will have immense problems selling the KF-21 to nations where the US is already advertising its own fighters (F-16, F-15). It doesn't even take a veto or no from the americans when its comes to export permission. They won't just answer the request by the South Korean government and let the tender run its course. Without a guarentee that South Korea can actually sell the aircraft to the buyer the buyer will never choose the KF-21 over the F-16 or F-15 or any other american fighter.

TBF if we had better relations and trust, Kaan could have easily been a similar project, with the first Block(s) being mainly equipped with foreign parts and slowly over time be replaced by indigenous ones.
 
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Anmdt

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Yeah but the KF-21 is already a finished platform,it works perfectly and can be upgraded.
The KAAN only has one prototype,nothing else,we should talk when its a finished platform,not before.
Plus we need to consider geopolitical facts, TuAF conducts cross-border operations on regular basis, and sometimes attempt to do far fetched one (Libya), operating bases in Libya - Somalia, and KAAN has been built based on certain requirements based on previous experience and upcoming threats or rivals. KF21 was evaluated and hasn't seemed to fit our requirements ie. not introducing a remarkable leap in capabilities and not answering what TuAF typically needs. I am not getting to the last point where how our decision and plan makers suck at seeing what's at the corner, or experts in being sanctioned out of blue.

Korea on the other hand had been reluctant in modifying the platform for customer needs, the focused on certain facts, keeping it simple - straightforward and answering what their airforce needs in given timeplan to replace the aging fleet with a 4+/4.5 gen fighter. And here we must admit the fact that, they planned something as is and adhered to it, both from financial and acquisition point of view.

We can't even go 1-to-1 comparison between respective airforces, let alone the fighter themselves. The discussion or comparison itself is pointless.
 

urban mine

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The claim that South Korea can't sell the KF-21 to countries the US disapproves of is pretty laughable. Why should Korea have to do that? We're not like Turkey, constantly clashing with the US over every little thing... And calling it Lego? It reminds me of those who mocked Sweden's Gripen C/D drawings. If you call it Lego just because some subsystems use foreign parts, does that mean everything has to be domestically produced? It's not like we're North Korea... Some people on X were implying we lack technology, but most of those parts are already in the process of being domestically produced.
Sources of Gripen Components.jpg

As @Anmdt mentioned above, the KF-21 is being developed to meet all ROKAF requirements, so I won't elaborate further.
 
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TR_123456

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Yeah because it is like LEGO compared to KAAN. No wonder the program is already more advanced than KAAN, because it was easier to build. And the first blocks of KF21 are less advanced than what KAAN block 1 will be.
So,if we could we wouldnt have done the ''LEGO'' way,right?
You know South-Korea's industrial complex is better then ours,yes?
Or are you going to deny that?
Dont know if noticed but you insulted a country ahead of ours on this issue .
 

urban mine

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Why not,it is deserved?
No need to hold back.
It's already been explained in the KF-X thread, so is there really any need to elaborate further? If we must, we can cite the Altay case. I could take the same stance on Altay. But I won't. Turkey continues to demonstrate its commitment to localization, and it's actually happening, yet Korean companies' subsystems are still integrated within it. Does that mean I call this LEGO? I've heard T2 will be localized in more areas. But that's a bit further in the future. Your factory hasn't even been under construction for a week yet, has it?
 

Pokemonte13

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Alright Korea and turkey are different countries. Koreas main objective with Kf21 is to bring out a fighter jet fast which is able to use Korean weapons similarly to the Jf17. As the threat of an embargo against them is low they can use foreign parts to speed delivery and upgrade it over time. There can be problems with selling to other countries if the Americans want to sell them their own stuff or have problems but it’s not a certainty.
Kaan is different it’s mission profile is different as it’s supposed to be stealth fighter from the beginning and we are like 5-8 years behind in defence than Korea.
 

Yasar_TR

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Guys, let’s get real.
With it’s educational push and a lot of hard work and sacrifice after the Korean war, South Korea has become one of the top dogs in the East when it comes to industrial and technological development. Their achievement can be nothing short of enviable.

They have not alienated all their hens that laid golden eggs, while getting there, like we have done. And correctly too!

This is a country that has a nominal gdp of 1.85billion dollars and a population of 51 million. It has a well established automotive production capacity while carrying it’s own brands with a world leading electronics and heavy industries to top it.

Without their input Altay tank could not have materialised. And they came to it’s rescue with the engine and transmission when we were left in the lurch by the Germans.

It is not a clever and economically correct thing to manufacture everything in house for a vehicle or weapon system. Mercedes uses Renault engine blocks in its 1500cc engines. Many parts for major car manufacturers are obtained from far east.

Just because some Boeing planes‘ parts are manufactured abroad (Tusas being amongst them) or the engines have parts that are manufactured by subcontractors (like, TEI, MTU Aero and IHI) doesn’t make that plane any less developed. The design is still American.

Let us not belittle others. But look at what we are doing. We are at the precipice of getting stuck on KAAN project now. US f110 engine supply is a big question mark still.
We don’t know when our indigenous engine will be ready to fly KAAN. Whether we will encounter any obstacles in its development is an unknown at the moment. That is why we are buying Typhoons.
 

Yasar_TR

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Speaking of the Eurofighter, was it introduced to replace the F-4 2020? If it is introduced, will all F-4 2020s be retired by 2030?
Hopefully yes.
Being twin engined and like a weapons cart, it is modern and sophisticated version of a phantom.
It is also a very good fighter interceptor. That way it fills the void of a good interceptor to counteract Greece’s Rafales
Phantoms should have been retired in 2020.
 

Zafer

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There is only 1-2 years between using the Korean engine for Altay and using the BMC engine, we might as well wait for the domestic engine or better make a hybrid from the get go. There will again be no more then 2 years between the deomestic engine and a foreign engine, so we may as well wait for the Kaan engine to come online and counter the hostility with unmanned fighters which they have no match for in just a year or two from now. We have more than enough of other weapons to compensate for the fighter jet shortcomings. There is no need to bend over backwards to get anything foreign anymore.
 

urban mine

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There is only 1-2 years between using the Korean engine for Altay and using the BMC engine, we might as well wait for the domestic engine or better make a hybrid from the get go. There will again be no more then 2 years between the deomestic engine and a foreign engine, so we may as well wait for the Kaan engine to come online and counter the hostility with unmanned fighters which they have no match for in just a year or two from now. We have more than enough of other weapons to compensate for the fighter jet shortcomings. There is no need to bend over backwards to get anything foreign anymore.
Well, actual users might not see it that way. While actual demand is factored into the plan, waiting for it entails cost increases and risks. Consider the time and money the Turkish military has wasted waiting until now.
 

Zafer

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Well, actual users might not see it that way. While actual demand is factored into the plan, waiting for it entails cost increases and risks. Consider the time and money the Turkish military has wasted waiting until now.
I am all for not going for foreign fighters even now. We might as well keep the money in the pocket and patch the gap with drones for 4 years more max.
 

boredaf

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I am all for not going for foreign fighters even now. We might as well keep the money in the pocket and patch the gap with drones for 4 years more max.
Not this again... Those drones are not going to be at a state to fill in the place of fighter jets in the next 4 years either.

This whole conversation is just something between a pissing contest and "kedi ulaşamadığı ciğere mundar dermiş".-Sour Grapes-
South Korea did what they needed to do to build a jet to fulfil their needs and we are doing the same.
 
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Yasar_TR

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I don’t know how many times we are going to discuss this issue of drones taking the place of conventional jet fighters.
As per @boredaf ’s numerous posts and mine, no drone, with current technology can take the place of fighter jets.

Even jet powered UCAVs can not replace a fully fledged fighter jet.
All of Bayraktar prop job UAVs and UCAVs are potential prey to simplest of SAMs. A modern army with a decent AD system will make mince meat out of those UCAVs. They are only good in a battlefield if you have total control of related airspace.
In time a drone like KE may be in a position to challenge conventional fighter jets. But that is not yet possible.
A drone like stealthy Anka-3 can be an asset to infiltrate deep in to enemy airspace for taking out enemy AD systems. But they will be most effective when accompanied by a fighter like KAAN.

We have a weakness in air concerning our fighter projection and their capabilities. Until KAAN becomes fully operational this deficiency will persist. That is why we are so keen to purchasing Typhoons.

Some members still look at the drone capability of Turkiye with blinkered eyes. Yes! Our drones are probably one of the best in the world for bucks spent. They are very capable and effective within the constraints they have. Outside their comfort zones they are sitting ducks against modern armies.
 
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Zafer

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Blinkering is in the eye of the beholder, you can't win a war by buying weapons from the enemy. Your own made weapon is the best weapon that will fight for you. Make it in numbers that will outnumber the enemy by manifold and team it up with your free fighters making it the most formidable fleet in existence. This is only two years away max. Waging war is not about matching the enemy one-o-one it is about matching the enemy with weapons that make a comparable effect on the whole.
 

Brokengineer

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Turkiye's achievement of possible tf35000 engine would be way bigger Milestone than a leap on achievements in drone Technology. As Mahmut Aksit said developing fighter jet engine is harder than developing nuclear bomb. Kaan May be developed currently sourced f110 engines. However, having domestic engines ready before LRIP is essential. There is only one production ready Western engine capable of providing thrust levels of 30k+ made by PW. It is enormously advanced level of high Technology that we have been trying to achieve.
 

uçuyorum

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Turkiye's achievement of possible tf35000 engine would be way bigger Milestone than a leap on achievements in drone Technology. As Mahmut Aksit said developing fighter jet engine is harder than developing nuclear bomb. Kaan May be developed currently sourced f110 engines. However, having domestic engines ready before LRIP is essential. There is only one production ready Western engine capable of providing thrust levels of 30k+ made by PW. It is enormously advanced level of high Technology that we have been trying to achieve.
Yes, once we have such an engine, even if say its performance is somewhat less than expected but above F110 levels, that product becomes a huge leverage, other nations wanting to build their fighters may gravitate towards us as well, if they won't buy Kaan. Tai may be too full to develop a single engine fighter alongside kaan, but maybe with a partnership a cheaper single engine fighter could be possible. It might also be suitable for a bomber or high end uav in the future.
 

GoatsMilk

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Guys, let’s get real.
With it’s educational push and a lot of hard work and sacrifice after the Korean war, South Korea has become one of the top dogs in the East when it comes to industrial and technological development. Their achievement can be nothing short of enviable.

They have not alienated all their hens that laid golden eggs, while getting there, like we have done. And correctly too!

This is a country that has a nominal gdp of 1.85billion dollars and a population of 51 million. It has a well established automotive production capacity while carrying it’s own brands with a world leading electronics and heavy industries to top it.

Without their input Altay tank could not have materialised. And they came to it’s rescue with the engine and transmission when we were left in the lurch by the Germans.

It is not a clever and economically correct thing to manufacture everything in house for a vehicle or weapon system. Mercedes uses Renault engine blocks in its 1500cc engines. Many parts for major car manufacturers are obtained from far east.

Just because some Boeing planes‘ parts are manufactured abroad (Tusas being amongst them) or the engines have parts that are manufactured by subcontractors (like, TEI, MTU Aero and IHI) doesn’t make that plane any less developed. The design is still American.

Let us not belittle others. But look at what we are doing. We are at the precipice of getting stuck on KAAN project now. US f110 engine supply is a big question mark still.
We don’t know when our indigenous engine will be ready to fly KAAN. Whether we will encounter any obstacles in its development is an unknown at the moment. That is why we are buying Typhoons.

I would like to add something here that i think the Korean posters should be aware about. There is a situation in Japan where the Japanese were initially being made to hate Turks, but unlike most of the world they were quick to realise the game that was going on. A game that had nothing to do with ethnic Turks, but a certain group that is hostile to Turkiye despite using Turkish visa free travel to get Japan in the first place.

Another group the Armenians in the USA/West are known to have troll farms whose whole intent is to sow divisions, hatreds and tensions against Turks and Turkiye. Its worth keeping in mind that online we have many entities hostile to us and they are always looking for opportunities to sow discord among anyone who is friendly with Turks and Turkiye.

So what I'm trying to say, just like the Japanese were quick to spot it, if you see certain things online which sow discord, 99 times out of a 100 its not an actual "Turk" doing it, no matter how much they present themselves as such. Don't be fooled about whether they are from Turkiye, can speak Turkish or have a Turkish name, 99 times out of a hundred these people stem from hostile and bitter minority groups who have dreams of carving Turkiye up.

The common Turk is no moron, he's not going to throw shade at South Korea. In reality when the Turk considers someone a friend as seen with pakistani/bangladesh he's only going to say good things. That's his nature.

In the past i actually raised the prospects of Turkiye buying this Korean plane instead of western planes. forget f16's, forget Eurofighter, but to get this instead.
 

urban mine

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Well, it doesn't seem like it's that serious of a situation. Right? Haha.
In the past i actually raised the prospects of Turkiye buying this Korean plane instead of western planes. forget f16's, forget Eurofighter, but to get this instead.

No. That doesn't seem like a very good idea. To replace the F-4 2020 and meet the necessary fighter demand, it's better to buy what's already on the market than to purchase a product still under development. And since they're different weight classes, the Eurofighter is better.
 
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