TR Navy Navy|News & Discussions

[Anmdt]

The question was not related to the ongoing discussion in the thread. I'm curious if we're building extra capacity or this mantra of "39 ships at the same time" is the highest we're ever gonna get

The point is there is no 39 simultaneous construction - rationale dictates that if it existed, we should have had 39 new ships in 3 years.
Current construction break-down;
For TN;
6 Istanbul Class, +1 is awaiting the queue, +2 more expected.
1 OPV (Desan), Dearsan hasn't commenced OPV yet if i am not mistaken, same for ASFAT - 7 are yet to begin.
1 YN-MAG (Minehunter, prototype ship) - more yet to begin, expected +5
1 TTHB (FAC, prototype ship), more yet to begin, expected +6
3/4 LCT, will be 8 in total. Expected to be completed by 2027, but may extend to Q4 2028.
4 Reis Class Submarine (to me, submarine business isn't integrated to shipbuilding industry at all, but anyway bump up the numbers).
Might be few auxillaries - tugs, and so on, skipped, also there is on Coast Guard ship which is skipped.

What is not going through the actual construction stage;
1 TF-2000,
1 Aircraft Carrier,
1 MILDEN,

Export;
3 LMSB2
1 Ukranian Milgem under construction -
1 Portugal multi-role support ship, +1 to follow
2 Indonesian FAC
1 Malaysian MPMS, +1 to follow
2 Qatari MAC

What do i not count;
1 OPV, going sea trials, expected to be sold
2 Nigerian OPV + 1 patrol ship, going through sea trials and training
1 PN Milgem, going through sea trials and training
1 Ukranian Milgem, going through sea trials and training

The simultaneous construction is roughly 20 hulls, which logically all can not be frigate sized ships.

Once again; i am excluding submarine business, as we are having a sole builder; Gölcük shipyard, at a fixed rate. We can't scale it up at our will.

 

[Anmdt]

In end it all boils down to trust in the regime pushing new laws over old ones.

I suppose this also applies to why people reacts critically to the sale of Istanbul Class frigates. We know they are up to no good, either making this a PR material - or funds, for what they have been wasting on unrelated projects, or funding of PPI assets. Logically we shouldn't be in need of the funds, since these ships have been planned through the lasts decade and funds have been allocated earlier. Such as, $1.5B was being spared for 6 Milgem in 2012-2013. Regardless of that, SSB and projections since 2007 on what to procure - new hulls - for Navy up until 2030s.

 

[TR_123456]

You know what, in some thread just recently people were talking how Europe is pushing Greece to confrontation with Turkiye and how Europe would let down Greece in the case of conflict.
Well Greece wouldn't be alone in such scenario, though many Turks believe that Greeks would be alone.
Greeks are penniless crooks and they are fed by these European junkies, Greeks frigates are better than the French ones, that tells you who pays for that. I know it is very inconvenient but, let's see what would 1000 Tyfuns do and 10000 drones.
The only strategically weak point of Turkiye is Trakkiya , Greeks can't reach Ankara but with Aselfir 600 , you can watch traffic lights in Athens.
90 odd billions for the earthquake relief so far, ain't exactly excuses. That's a lot of money

You are missing the point,it is not about Greece or any other possible enemy.
Lets just leave it here,i dont know how to explain it a way that you will get the point.

 

[Yasar_TR]

I believe we have 6 builders/shipyards at most able to build on the levels needed.
Lets say three ships at a time,still dont get the nr of 30.
@Yasar_TR abi ?

According to various sources below are the ship building points for Turkish naval forces:

Primary Naval Shipyards (Ministry of National Defence)

• Istanbul Naval Shipyard (Pendik): The largest naval facility, responsible for constructing frigates (MILGEM/Istanbul-class), the future MUGEM-class aircraft carrier, and TF-2000 air-defence destroyers.
• Gölcük Naval Shipyard (Kocaeli): Focuses on submarine construction (Reis-class/Type 214 and the MILDEN National Submarine project) and maintenance.
• Aksaz Naval Shipyard Command (Marmaris): Hosts a major submarine floating dock for maintenance.

Private Shipyards & Partnerships
Through partnerships with ASFAT (Military Factory and Shipyard Management Joint Stock Company) and STM, several private yards are building modern vessels:

• Sefine Shipyard (Yalova): Involved in the construction of Fleet Replenishment Ships (DIMDEG), MILGEM frigates, and unmanned surface vehicles (MARLIN).
• Anadolu Shipyard (TAIS partnership): Known for constructing landing ships and Istanbul-class frigates.
• Sedef Shipyard (Tuzla): Largest private shipyard, constructing landing ships (TCG Anadolu) and Istanbul-class frigates.
• Dearsan Shipyard (Tuzla): Constructing Hisar-class Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs) and Fast Attack Craft.
• Ares Shipyard: Developing unmanned surface vehicles (ULAQ) in partnership with Meteksan.
• Ada (RMK Marine) Shipyard: Involved in constructing logistic support ships.
• Yonca-Onuk Shipyard: Specialized in high-speed patrol boats.
• Desan Shipyard: OPV, tugboats and oil tankers. Has NATO clearance.

 

[Nilgiri]

I suppose this also applies to why people reacts critically to the sale of Istanbul Class frigates. We know they are up to no good, either making this a PR material - or funds, for what they have been wasting on unrelated projects, or funding of PPI assets. Logically we shouldn't be in need of the funds, since these ships have been planned through the lasts decade and funds have been allocated earlier. Such as, $1.5B was being spared for 6 Milgem in 2012-2013. Regardless of that, SSB and projections since 2007 on what to procure - new hulls - for Navy up until 2030s.

I posted long reply in economics thread. It (and context prior) can be read there. The issue is forex related capital account pressure. 85/400 is like 20%. What are the things that have lead it to being this low instead of something closer to 100% (for developing economy that needs quality capital).

Quality forex has been depleted and scavenged as it has on the macro fundamental due to executive BS for years now. So you get compounding of things like public infra monetization, UAE sukuk bond top off and premature frigate selling.

All for cheap short term forex buck to buy time and prop things up rickety way....concentrated-power executives 9 times out of 10 dont like competence these days, thats the summary.

Turkish public are being hung out to dry in bad way.

 

[Nilgiri]

I don‘t understand what you are writing. Can you pls be clearer? What is eminent domain law? What is „less market price …“ what is „disturbing trend….“ I thought I can read and understand English.

Eminent domain is basically the underlying absolute right that the govt can act in interest of public need to take private property for public use.

i.e you want to build a highway from A to B or some large airport over private owners land etc. They cannot resist it after you have offered the market price for it (since the needs of the many outweigh their personal needs by like a million to one or more etc).

But key thing is the market price protocol, they MUST be compensated fairly. This often goes on in courts after the govt has seized it. So the public trust long term grows if the courts (and good law they use) is stable and assured one. i.e case law precedence.

So if there is some new law that changes things (hey govt can seize+hold longer without compensating, or gives a lower than fair market price in end etc), it can be pretty bad long term to that public trust and also govt power can get addicted to using that "easier" route too.

It is important to do things the proper, fair "harder for govt" way....law exists to protect the individual from collective mobs/tyrannies.

Ataturk set the constitution ( democratic republic model) as he did for reason.

Disturbing trend, that is just worry about how Turkish military leadership (and other institutions, courts, central banking etc) has also been made much more compliant to current executive power in Turkiye.

i.e basically no resistance given if executive overrides them (whatever they might say or not even bring up now) on say frigates to be sold rather than deployed in Turkish force structure (where most members have presented case now it is lacking greatly w.r.t navy).

 

[Anmdt]

According to various sources below are the ship building points for Turkish naval forces:

Primary Naval Shipyards (Ministry of National Defence)

• Istanbul Naval Shipyard (Pendik): The largest naval facility, responsible for constructing frigates (MILGEM/Istanbul-class), the future MUGEM-class aircraft carrier, and TF-2000 air-defence destroyers.
• Gölcük Naval Shipyard (Kocaeli): Focuses on submarine construction (Reis-class/Type 214 and the MILDEN National Submarine project) and maintenance.
• Taşkızak Naval Shipyard (Istanbul): Involved in various but small naval projects.
• Aksaz Naval Shipyard Command (Marmaris): Hosts a major submarine floating dock for maintenance.

Private Shipyards & Partnerships
Through partnerships with ASFAT (Military Factory and Shipyard Management Joint Stock Company) and STM, several private yards are building modern vessels:

• Sefine Shipyard (Yalova): Involved in the construction of Fleet Replenishment Ships (DIMDEG), MILGEM frigates, and unmanned surface vehicles (MARLIN).
• Anadolu Shipyard (TAIS partnership): Known for constructing landing ships and Istanbul-class frigates.
• Sedef Shipyard (Tuzla): Largest private shipyard, constructing landing ships (TCG Anadolu) and Istanbul-class frigates.
• Dearsan Shipyard (Tuzla): Constructing Hisar-class Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs) and Fast Attack Craft.
• Ares Shipyard: Developing unmanned surface vehicles (ULAQ) in partnership with Meteksan.
• Ada (RMK Marine) Shipyard: Involved in constructing logistic support ships.
• Yonca-Onuk Shipyard: Specialized in high-speed patrol boats.
• Desan Shipyard: OPV, tugboats and oil tankers. Has NATO clearance.

Taşkızak Shipyard is not functional anymore, used to be in Haliç (Golden Horn). There exists a pretty mall in place of it, nowadays.

Among all of the military shipyards only Istanbul Shipyard Command and Gölcük Shipyard have newbuilding operations, surface ships and submarines respectively.

Following are the private shipyards authorized by SSB;
Sedef
Sefine
Anadolu
Ares
Yonca-Onuk
Ada (Selah)
Desan
Istanbul Shipyard
RMK Marine
Dearsan
Ozata (small hulls)

 

[Huelague]

Bro, forget about our government knowing all!
That is what we are discussing here. Just read the posts related to this subject and use your own intelligence to decide if we have enough ships or not. You don’t need to be a member of government to see if 2+2 is 4.
You have Russian fleet in Blacksea to counter.
You have Greek fleet in the Aegean
In the Mediterranean;
You have Egyptian fleet growing every year.
You have Israeli fleet, small but effective.
French have a naval base in Cyprus.

You can’t confront these naval forces with almost obsolete ships. We need modern ships. Especially if one or two of those countries line up together against us. On top of it we have aspirations in The Horn of Africa. With what naval force???

You can not forget a very important factor here, Türk government.

Of course, we can discuss about there decisions, and what we see as a failure or a treasonous act.

Okay, I will share my personal point of view.
Your argument is, countries like Russia , N. Cyprus, Greece, France, Israel or Egypt are threat to us.

Let’s begin with Russia. The Black Sea flotilla are all within our ASM. We have seen in current Ukraine war that Russian heavy combat ships are not well protected and can be outmatched even by a see-drone.

About Egypt, the the ongoing relationship to Egypt let them more looks like an ally then an enemy.

Israel’s Navy is too small to be a real threat to ours. Their hole Navy and Ports are within our ASM, BM and Cruise Missiles.

Same goes for N. Cyprus. Greece is another story. They have indeed a good and powerful Navy.

And more powerful is the France Navy. But who is really thinking that one of them could attack a NATO member. Of course, not the ones who are “fighting “ Russians and USA at the same time.

And my question, addressed to @TR_123456 , was more a rhetorical question. 44 ships are being built. 31 of them for own needs, an 13 for export.
And again, to build all of these ships, you need a shit load of money. Money you can generate by exports.

 

[I_Love_F16]

You can not forget a very important factor here, Türk government.

You would be right if the current administration would be competent and corruption free. But unfortunately, it is not the case. The current government doesn’t care about the country, what they care about is short term profit for their own pocket and propaganda purposes. The Navy is in desperate need of ships but if the Sultan prefers to sell them then who cares right ? How can you trust this government after all the shit they have done ?

 

[Yasar_TR]

You can not forget a very important factor here, Türk government.

Of course, we can discuss about there decisions, and what we see as a failure or a treasonous act.

Okay, I will share my personal point of view.
Your argument is, countries like Russia , N. Cyprus, Greece, France, Israel or Egypt are threat to us.

Let’s begin with Russia. The Black Sea flotilla are all within our ASM. We have seen in current Ukraine war that Russian heavy combat ships are not well protected and can be outmatched even by a see-drone.

About Egypt, the the ongoing relationship to Egypt let them more looks like an ally then an enemy.

Israel’s Navy is too small to be a real threat to ours. Their hole Navy and Ports are within our ASM, BM and Cruise Missiles.

Same goes for N. Cyprus. Greece is another story. They have indeed a good and powerful Navy.

And more powerful is the France Navy. But who is really thinking that one of them could attack a NATO member. Of course, not the ones who are “fighting “ Russians and USA at the same time.

And my question, addressed to @TR_123456 , was more a rhetorical question. 44 ships are being built. 31 of them for own needs, an 13 for export.
And again, to build all of these ships, you need a shit load of money. Money you can generate by exports.

There are many flaws in your “personal points of view” .

First of all there are no friends when it comes to international relations. Today’s friends are tomorrow‘s enemies.
Israel was upgrading our tanks and our f4 fighter jets for us not long ago. Now they are seeing us as a major enemy.
Egypt was fighting against us in Libya. Now they are buying air defence equipment from us and becoming a partner in Kaan project.
Esat’s Syria were friends with us then turned against us and became Esed, and our drones decimated a third of their armour in a few days. Now they are being guided by us.

You do not build your armed forces according to how your relations are with countries around you. You build it to be superior to any and all of them. Or at least to be strong enough to deter them. Then you become friends.

You can’t depend on your AShM and ballistic missile capability alone. We saw what happened to Iran, who depended on their ballistic missile arsenal.

Israeli navy may be small. But it is very modern and capable. Their submarine fleet carries long reach nuclear ballistic missiles.

Greece is a NATO member, yet they are one of the main enemies we have; together with the French who also is a NATO member.

If we forget MUGEM, we can have the funds to build all the Istif class plus 8 new 4500 ton frigates.

Do you really think that 44 ships are being built right now? You had better look in to it yourself again. Please read @Anmdt ’s post #1641 at the top of this page more carefully. Most of these numbers are what is planned over many years. Not current constructions. Probably just about half of that number of hulls are laid down at the moment.