Pokemonte13
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More our fault then theirs to be honest
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Corvus
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His statements cause more concern among the Zionists, radical Kurdists, Armenians and Greeks as far as I can see.
They think he is a Turkish asset that is bringing American policies in line with Türkiye.
For example:
He has an unorthodox -yet correct IMO- approach to the Middle East and he doesn't talk diplomatically -he's not a diplomat anyways. That's why his statements can be disturbing for many parties. However, I believe his words and actions have been extremely pro-Türkiye so far. He facilitated the collapse of the so-called SDF and indirectly criticized Israel in many cases.
I personally agree with many of his observations & vision about the Middle East and Türkiye.
He counted some requirements for this to be achieved. Such as acceptance of Palestian statehood by Israel -which is not going to happen. That's giving middle finger in diplomatic language.
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The Trump administration is held by the balls by the Israeli lobby. Do you really think Tom Barrack is an outlier?
Israel doesn't want any strong nation states in the region. Syria is no longer a threat, HTS was literally funded by the CIA and today's Syria is absolutely not a threat to Israeli ambitions. Therefore YPG isnt needed anymore.
Meanwhile PKK has more political power inside Türkiye than ever before despite supposedly being dismantled. Also, I guarantee they're stacking up FPV drones as we speak.
Tom Barrack's embrace of Türkiye is like when the coalition backed the Istanbul government in the early 20th century...
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Syria hasn't been a threat since 80s. The idea that YPG was a vice against Baath Syria is absurd; it never was.
Huelague
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Which we are from the very first beginning!
BalkanTurk90
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WTF Türkiye still asking to buy F35 and showing itself like US puppy , just say 'we dont want F35' go faxk yourself USA , we dont need u , your aircraft or anything else from u . From president to ordinary citizens ,we should say this ...
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Dont be so emotional,its just politics.
Corvus
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That's one of the things that confuses me as well. But then how do we explain the hatred coming from Türkiye's enemies towards Barrack? Why do they campaign for his removal from the post?
Then why did Israel attack Syria, blow up much of its heavy equipment and invade strategic locations right after the revolution succeded? Why do pro-Israeli accounts keep calling Sharaa a terrorist, an islamist etc.?
What is your source about HTS being funded by the CIA?
I think you are missing a tiny detail.
Türkiye today is not under occupation of a coalition of super powers. We are on the rise and super powers of the last few centuries are on decline.
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Why did Israel support Hamas against secular Palestinian resistance decades ago?
Why did the CIA back radical Islamist groups, including HTS and even ISIS in the first place?
Their playbook is quite simple, but Muslims fall for it time after time. Islamists, and Jihadists in particular are useful, but ultimately once the plug is pulled they become the ultimate boogeyman. Like you don't even need to justify a war campaign again them, Western politicians and citizens will blindly support it.
Related to this, there is a huge campaign to demonize Muslims in the west, and restore Christianity (which would actually be bad for the west, and LGBT has been a huge factor in this mess as well). This isn't organic, there's been a push to send millions of refugees to Western countries and the ultimately cause a massive rift between two groups that have nearly the same population globally. If huge anti-immigration and anti-Muslim uprisings happened in Europe, this would essentially give Israel free reign to do whatever they want in the Middle East, with even more backing then they have currently.
You need to dig below the surface and see that the US and Israel see Muslims as both a weapon and and excuse to expand influence. Saudi Arabia has been complicit in this for decades.
GoatsMilk
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A big reason the western elites flooded the west with "Muslims" is because it helped the dehumanisation process. Without saudi backed wahhabi islamist minded people in the west the dehumanisation process would have been much harder. Turks up until recently were a big counter argument against this point, especially those with the Ataturk mindset. But truth be told Turks are being thrown into the same category as how they see the arabs, morrocans, pakistanis etc. Perceiving all Muslims to be ugly looking 3rd world savages.
It also serves as a way to unite white europe who traditionally without an outside threat despise each other. I remember how europeans from the continent in europe were looked down on here by the english. They were all seen as "eastern european" garbage. Especially the europeans from the balkans were all seen as idiots and criminally minded. The romanians and albanians, were seen as the lowest of the low and if not for Muslims probably still would be. Now if you were to travel Europe you will soon discover that most Europeans have serious issues with each other.
Muslim migrations brought into europe predominatly by anglo-american/zionist intention helps unite europe by finding common purpose against the other, while also aiding in the dehumanisation process against Muslims. In general my experience of Muslims from north Africa, from the middle east has been quite negative. I've met so many hostile pakistani Muslims that 2 minutes interaction with them makes you think all Muslims are trash. This is what is happening in england and the english are probably some of the least racist people in europe. If the english are starting to hate Muslims, no chance to improve the image with the rest of europe.
I pointed it out before but Ataturk understood the psycology of the european, he presented an image of the Turk which for the european was synomonous with being a Muslim, as being something positive. This isnt about being white or brown skinned, its about presenting a respectable image that doesnt frighten the west. This is important since the west especially back then had all the power. Because remember, in order to destroy you they have to dehumanise you first.
The image Ataturk crafted for the Turks protected the Turks and protected the Islamic world. The image he created was hard to dehumanise because once your dehumanised, the zionist pigs can get away with any crime they commit and their crimes are endless.
Our friend posted the video about the jewish world congress talking to germany about how they "need to hold the Turks back", its also the same reason that the "Turk" identity is relentlessly under attack both within Turkiye and outside it. So Turks have to remember who they historically were and not what the western backed isalmists like feto or the grand orient created freemasonic muslim brotherhood want Turks to be.
The salvation is to reconnect with who we are, then a real solution can be found.
YeşilVatan
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I agree wholeheartedly with this analysis. Kemalist westernization had one overarching, ultimate aim: to prevent western aggression. Founding cadres of the republic correctly assessed the European xeno-dehumanization process and every step they took was aimed at thwarting it.A big reason the western elites flooded the west with "Muslims" is because it helped the dehumanisation process. Without saudi backed wahhabi islamist minded people in the west the dehumanisation process would have been much harder. Turks up until recently were a big counter argument against this point, especially those with the Ataturk mindset. But truth be told Turks are being thrown into the same category as how they see the arabs, morrocans, pakistanis etc. Perceiving all Muslims to be ugly looking 3rd world savages.
It also serves as a way to unite white europe who traditionally without an outside threat despise each other. I remember how europeans from the continent in europe were looked down on here by the english. They were all seen as "eastern european" garbage. Especially the europeans from the balkans were all seen as idiots and criminally minded. The romanians and albanians, were seen as the lowest of the low and if not for Muslims probably still would be. Now if you were to travel Europe you will soon discover that most Europeans have serious issues with each other.
Muslim migrations brought into europe predominatly by anglo-american/zionist intention helps unite europe by finding common purpose against the other, while also aiding in the dehumanisation process against Muslims. In general my experience of Muslims from north Africa, from the middle east has been quite negative. I've met so many hostile pakistani Muslims that 2 minutes interaction with them makes you think all Muslims are trash. This is what is happening in england and the english are probably some of the least racist people in europe. If the english are starting to hate Muslims, no chance to improve the image with the rest of europe.
I pointed it out before but Ataturk understood the psycology of the european, he presented an image of the Turk which for the european was synomonous with being a Muslim, as being something positive. This isnt about being white or brown skinned, its about presenting a respectable image that doesnt frighten the west. This is important since the west especially back then had all the power. Because remember, in order to destroy you they have to dehumanise you first.
The image Ataturk crafted for the Turks protected the Turks and protected the Islamic world. The image he created was hard to dehumanise because once your dehumanised, the zionist pigs can get away with any crime they commit and their crimes are endless.
Our friend posted the video about the jewish world congress talking to germany about how they "need to hold the Turks back", its also the same reason that the "Turk" identity is relentlessly under attack both within Turkiye and outside it. So Turks have to remember who they historically were and not what the western backed isalmists like feto or the grand orient created freemasonic muslim brotherhood want Turks to be.
The salvation is to reconnect with who we are, then a real solution can be found.
I will also add one caveat: some of our own also fell for this optical transformation. Some people re-created an image of him as a socially liberal, civic nationalist, human rights hero who has the moral worldview of someone like İmamoğlu. This is false.
We know for certain that Atatürk:
- Has personally ordered dismissal of a black (zenci) official (in Denizli Türk Ocağı) for the sole reason of him being black
- Forbid the women in his family from dancing with men
- Ordered the razing of an entire town (menemen) and opted out of this because his subordinates insisted
Halaskar Mareşal Gazi Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, by today's standards, was a chauvanist, socially conservative, ethnic nationalist. His "liberalism", for the most part, was the result of practical neccesities. He was aware that Europeans and Russians were itching for another war of extermination and took all these steps to prevent that.
It would be immensely helpful if islamists recognized this fact and celebrated the salvation of Türkiye from a genocide at the hands of christians, and seek to emulate Kemalist strategy (because it's still valid). It would also be very beneficial for all parties if the secularists stop trying to project their -dare I say- retarded social democrat values to the founder of our nation.
Atatürk, even after 88 years of his passing, is still our north star and best hope. Sooner we recognize this and give up this childish polarization, the better. I have little hope though.
Edit: The black official story is appaerently in Aydın, not Denizli. He also didn't limit women from danicng, but according to Falih Rıfkı Atay, was opposed to marriages with non-Turks.
Sorry for my scatterbrain, I picked apricots all morning. I hallucinate apricots.
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IC3M@N FX
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The problem is not Muslims, but the way the West views Muslims and seeks to shape them.
As backward, antisocial, unintelligent, and isolated.
You cannot “civilize” a religious ethnic group—whether Turks, Arabs, or North Africans—according to U.S. or European standards if they are constantly under Political, Military stress from conflicts imported by Israel and the U.S./EU. This is a deliberate strategy to repeatedly destabilize this region.
I’m talking about development in terms of sociality, integrity, behavior, progress, and the intelligence of the masses—that leads to success and opportunities.
Look at China and its people: It has developed through a program since the late 1940s, 1950s and 1960s and 1970s has transformed from a resource-based nation into an industrial nation = a superpower—success breeds success; this has nothing to do with Religion or Ethics or Politics. Rather, it is about developing without external influence and stress.
Just look at Turkey’s progress—they simply can’t stand the fact that an Islamic country, whether moderate or conservative, can achieve technological, athletic, and social success. This shakes their worldview and shows that there is an alternative. When countries succeed, they become self-reliant, and their people become self-reliant—self-confidence: success breeds success.
Haven't you ever noticed that the West has hardly any natural resources and has to import everything for its industry? What do you think will happen if resource-rich countries start processing their own raw materials? The West's prosperity will collapse—this has nothing to do with religion or other nonsense, but rather with putting pressure on these nations to prevent them from developing further.
When a nation is self-sufficient technologically, economically, and socially, it inevitably develops its own strategic agenda. It transforms from the object of foreign policy into a subject that sets its own terms. This emancipation provokes extreme unease in the West, for two reasons:
1 Loss of leverage: In the past, technology blackouts, embargoes, wars, and conflicts were sufficient to steer a country’s development and foreign policy. However, when the critical components—the software and the engineering expertise—are developed domestically, these traditional tools of Western pressure lose their effectiveness.
2 Geopolitical competition: A self-assured country at the crossroads of Europe, Asia, and the Middle East—one that forges its own alliances and no longer automatically fits into existing hierarchies—forces the West to negotiate on equal terms—a role that many Western actors find difficult.
For examplw It’s quite simple: When Turkey qualified for the 2026 World Cup, the first comments on German sports forums were: “Hopefully they’ll be eliminated right away.” It doesn’t bother them that a Muslim country is participating, but rather that a Muslim country like Turkey is achieving success in the fields of technology, sports, and self-realization and is making this visible; this visibility breeds success and self-confidence—for them, this is a threat; it’s a mix of envy, a sense of threat, and a worldview.
As backward, antisocial, unintelligent, and isolated.
You cannot “civilize” a religious ethnic group—whether Turks, Arabs, or North Africans—according to U.S. or European standards if they are constantly under Political, Military stress from conflicts imported by Israel and the U.S./EU. This is a deliberate strategy to repeatedly destabilize this region.
I’m talking about development in terms of sociality, integrity, behavior, progress, and the intelligence of the masses—that leads to success and opportunities.
Look at China and its people: It has developed through a program since the late 1940s, 1950s and 1960s and 1970s has transformed from a resource-based nation into an industrial nation = a superpower—success breeds success; this has nothing to do with Religion or Ethics or Politics. Rather, it is about developing without external influence and stress.
Just look at Turkey’s progress—they simply can’t stand the fact that an Islamic country, whether moderate or conservative, can achieve technological, athletic, and social success. This shakes their worldview and shows that there is an alternative. When countries succeed, they become self-reliant, and their people become self-reliant—self-confidence: success breeds success.
Haven't you ever noticed that the West has hardly any natural resources and has to import everything for its industry? What do you think will happen if resource-rich countries start processing their own raw materials? The West's prosperity will collapse—this has nothing to do with religion or other nonsense, but rather with putting pressure on these nations to prevent them from developing further.
When a nation is self-sufficient technologically, economically, and socially, it inevitably develops its own strategic agenda. It transforms from the object of foreign policy into a subject that sets its own terms. This emancipation provokes extreme unease in the West, for two reasons:
1 Loss of leverage: In the past, technology blackouts, embargoes, wars, and conflicts were sufficient to steer a country’s development and foreign policy. However, when the critical components—the software and the engineering expertise—are developed domestically, these traditional tools of Western pressure lose their effectiveness.
2 Geopolitical competition: A self-assured country at the crossroads of Europe, Asia, and the Middle East—one that forges its own alliances and no longer automatically fits into existing hierarchies—forces the West to negotiate on equal terms—a role that many Western actors find difficult.
For examplw It’s quite simple: When Turkey qualified for the 2026 World Cup, the first comments on German sports forums were: “Hopefully they’ll be eliminated right away.” It doesn’t bother them that a Muslim country is participating, but rather that a Muslim country like Turkey is achieving success in the fields of technology, sports, and self-realization and is making this visible; this visibility breeds success and self-confidence—for them, this is a threat; it’s a mix of envy, a sense of threat, and a worldview.
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Corvus
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You are responding to my questions with questions that has nothing to do with our case.
Israel supported Hamas against Fatah to cause divison and rift between the resistance. Do you see any divison in Syria at the moment? A unified Syrian government with popular support and Turkish backing is a nightmare for them and they repatedly voiced their concerns. Do you want me to provide dozens of statements from Israelis themselves on this issue?
Could you provide evidence about CIA backing HTS? I think HTS was backed more by Türkiye, Qatar and the UK. Not the USA. Any claim we make on this issue can't be proven as they are matters of top secret intelligence. I wonder how can you talk so sure of yourself.
The USA kidnapped the president of a soverign nation a few months ago. Nobody said a word about it. Is it because Venezuela was Islamist?
If you are a weak player sitting on some strategic assets without obeying the super power, they will create the legitimization without giving a f.
The issue with the "Islamists" is that they refuse to obey, they are not afraid of death and they are not blinded by the comforts of this world. That makes them dangerous for neo-liberal world order that individuals are reduced to consumer animals. You can control most politicians with their drug problems, with their love for women, gold or even kids. You can't do the same with the "Islamists".
Yes, especailly by Israel and Israel aligned groups&individuals. On the other hand, many people on the right started to think that migration and demographic collapse is also caused by the Jews. I have many such friends like this. A croatian right wing christian friend of mine recently joked about he would join Turkish military if we fight against Israel.
Finally, I'm asking my previous questions again:
1) How do we explain the hatred coming from Türkiye's enemies towards Barrack? Why do they campaign for his removal from the post?
2) Why did Israel attack Syria, blow up much of its heavy equipment and invade strategic locations right after the revolution succeded? Why do pro-Israeli accounts keep calling Sharaa a terrorist, an islamist etc.?
Pokemonte13
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1. That hatred or critic against barrack has two reasons:
Firstly they think based on the statements he has made that he is ''too'' pro turkish(erdogan) since he says stuff that somewhat aligns with turkish foreign policy more than with US/israeli in the region and they view that as treason/betrayal even though he's just doing some ass kissing than actual backed policy.
Secondly he is maybe together with Mike Huckabee in Israel the most senior diplomat in the region so his word should actually represent the policy of the US executive towards turkey and what he says often times says(f35 mostly) conflicts with US laws so its kind of irritating for them
2.
They call him an terrorist because HTS was once part of Alqaida and he did most likely do some things that are characteristics of a terrorist and they call him an islamist because he is one.
They blew stuff up because weakening an enemy is always an good option no matter how weak he is and they invaded syria because they can use the new territory to bargain with and to increase their tactical advantage.
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According to sources I value there is no such event. His Türk Ocaklari visits are well documented. Only time he came to Denizli in 1931 he did not stay long and never mentioned Türk Ocaklari.
Atatürk Denizli'de (1931)
Türkiye Cumhuriyeti Kültür ve Turizm Bakanlığı Resmi İnternet Sitesi
denizli.ktb.gov.tr
Böyle bir olay yaşanmamıştır. Bu iddia, güncel dijital mecralarda zaman zaman dolaşıma giren asılsız bir söylentidir. Tarihsel kayıtlara göre Mustafa Kemal Atatürk’ün Denizli ziyaretlerinde veya herhangi bir şehirdeki Türk Ocağı'nda zenci (Afrikalı kökenli) bir üyeyi attırdığına dair hiçbir kanıt veya tarihi belge bulunmamaktadır.[1, 2]
Atatürk'ün Türk Ocakları ziyaretleri ve o dönemki icraatları incelendiğinde bu yönde bir ayrımcılık veya üye çıkarma vakası mevcut değildir. [1]
Menemen case is a different case. A Turkish army officer was brutally murdered by the Islamic fundementalists.
Atatürk did not directly order Menemen to be erased from the map or burned down. However, he reacted very strongly after the incident, demanding that those responsible be found and those negligent be punished severely.
Truth of the whole event:
Initial Reaction: Atatürk was in Edirne when he received the news and expressed great anger, saying, "What kind of situation is this? Reactionaries can slit the throat of an army officer in the government square in the name of religion...
" Emphasis on Responsibility: He stated that not only the rebels but also all the people of Menemen who remained silent or supported the rebels were responsible, and that this was an attack on the republic.
Legal Process: Following these statements, martial law was declared in the region, and the perpetrators were tried and punished in a military court.
Atatürk did not forbid women in his family or circle from dancing with men; on the contrary, he advocated for women to participate in social life as equal individuals with men.
Get your facts right, use legitimate sources and stop using hear say or anti Ataturk sites’ information please.
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Oh come on, what do you think FSA even was? It literally led to rise of HTS and ISIS, the latter of which was used as an excuse to back YPG/PKK.
"A leaked email from 2012 has resurfaced online in which Obama's assistant national security advisor, Jake Sullivan, tells former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton that "AQ is on our side in Syria", referring to al-Qaeda."
"In fact, the CIA’s covert program to arm the Syrian opposition, Operation Timber Sycamore, is possibly its most expensive regime change effort since Operation Cyclone, its program to arm anti-communist forces in Afghanistan, which led to the rise of Osama bin Laden.
Beyond arms shipments to opposition groups, Israel also has a record of treating injured Al-Nusra Front fighters and coordinating attacks with them."
Quote by James Rubin: "The best way to help Israel deal with Iran’s growing nuclear capability is to help the people of Syria overthrow the regime of Bashar Assad"
Or how about this:
Syria rebels appear to credit Israeli strikes on Hezbollah with aiding shock advance
Opposition figures speaking to Israeli TV say they love Jewish state and want to forge friendship; report indicates Hezbollah may be sending forces to Syria as Assad looks for help
www.timesofisrael.com
“We love Israel and we were never its enemies,” the man from the Idlib area said. “[Israel] isn’t hostile to those who are not hostile toward it. We don’t hate you, we love you very much.” "
Sorry, but you'd have to be naïve to believe HTS's lightning offensive in the midst of the Israel-Palestine/Axis war was a mere coincidence, it literally ended Iran's presence in Syria at such a convenient time. Israel bombed forces that were against HTS, and I have no doubt intelligence was provided to them.
1) He is literally the ambassador to Türkiye, do you expect him to be outwardly hostile? I think that's what Israeli's and Greek's expect with all the lobbying going on, hence why they're disillusioned. But seriously, do you trust him? Some of his "good" statements come off as an attempt to get us to cosy up to him. Meanwhile, he mentions that nation states shouldn't exist in the middle east and even that Türkiye should return to the Ottoman era state system, AKA he is sugar coating the idea of giving different ethnic groups autonomy. You need to read between the lines
2) Because why the hell not? Their pawn served their purpose, removed the Axis and now their only potential future threat comes from whatever Syria turns into in the future. They (Israel) literally want more parts of Syria, their not looking for friends. I'm not sure what answer you're seeking from this. But really, they got exactly what they wanted. They have their new bogeyman, only a matter of time until they blame him for terror attacks and go all in. That's of course depending on how their current war goes, though they might periodically attack them to keep them in check. Although Syria is now united, it is practically powerless, Israel no longer needs to worry about Iranian groups in Syria, thus they can dedicate resources to Lebanon and attacking Iran itself (as we have seen).
I just want to say that Israel wants to be the only strong nation state in the region. Any action that attacks Türkiye's core principles, Atatürk's legacy, and national unity is an attempt to undermine the only country which really poses a threat to them. There's been a lot of avenues for these attacks, unfortunately religion has been the biggest of these. Reactionaries, often indoctrinated in the UK, and supported by NGOs originating from the US and Germany have been an important tool in this decades long campaign.
YeşilVatan
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Atatürk Seyahat Notları (1930-1931) - Gürbüz Tüfekçi / Page 123According to sources I value there is no such event. His Türk Ocaklari visits are well documented. Only time he came to Denizli in 1931 he did not stay long and never mentioned Türk Ocaklari.
Atatürk Denizli'de (1931)
Türkiye Cumhuriyeti Kültür ve Turizm Bakanlığı Resmi İnternet Sitesi
Atatürk Seyahat Notları (1930-1931) - Gürbüz Tüfekçi | PDF
Scribd is the source for 300M+ user uploaded documents and specialty resources.
I misremembered. It was Aydın.
A quote from Çankaya
Kadın anlayışında pek Garplı olduğu söylenemez. Hatta hanımların tırnaklarını boyamasını bile istemezdi. Son derece kıskançtı. Denebilir ki harem eğilimi...
www.goodreads.com
This is also a mistake on my part. I was thinking about this Falih Rıfkı quote and somehow my brain mixed it up with this:
Edit: wrong video, couldn't find it. It's the Tarihin Arka odası video with Sultan Abdulaziz (?) scolding his son for dancing with an English princess.
I am not arguing Atatürk was a bearded mullah. I think he was a progressive Rumelian officer and had the social views that can be expected from such a person at that time. He encouraged women to participate more in social life but noone in this planet would make me believe he would be on board with 21st century women's liberation (for the simple fact that it threatens national security by lowering TFR).
My point still stands. Atatürk would be considered a socially conservative ethnic nationalist by today's standards. And we should move more towards Atatürk, not create a false image of him to justify contemporary social democrat worldview.
