India Army Indian Army Artillery Archive

[Nilgiri]

No one reported this news apart from Ajai Shukla

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1333424326733750272

Yeah thats why I put an "if"....but the guy does pan out correctly on some issues later.

 

[Zapper]

Yeah thats why I put an "if"....but the guy does pan out correctly on some issues later.

There were also some reports that IA was requesting for waivers and exceptions of certain tech in the import ban list and this news came right after the list was released quoting unknown sources. None of the weapons systems in the list are of critical nature and something where DRDO or some private firms like Tata, Kalyani etc have made significant progress in

Unless we have an official confirmation from IA or MoD, take this with a grain of salt

 

[crixus]

Yeah thats why I put an "if"....but the guy does pan out correctly on some issues later.

Ajai Shukla .... he is real hamam member , so take his words with pinch of salt

 

[crixus]

ATAGS ( TATA's model ) are getting tested in Maharashtra :

 

[Nilgiri]

TIFWIW, he's back again:

Elbit offers to build 70% of 155 mm artillery gun in India; at about half the cost of the indigenous ATAGS​

By Ajai Shukla

Business Standard, 9 December 20



After quoting far cheaper than French gunmaker Nexter in a government tender to supply the Indian Army with 1,580 artillery guns, Israeli firm Elbit Systems has written to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, sweetening its offer by promising to build 70 per cent of the weapon in India.



That is significantly higher indigenisation than the 50 per cent required for “Make in India” projects.



The Ministry of Defence (MoD) tender requires Elbit Systems to supply the first 400 of its ATHOS 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns in fully built or knocked-down condition, with no indigenisation requirements. The remaining 1,180 guns, which the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has to manufacture with transfer of technology (ToT) from Elbit, must be at least 50 per cent made in India.



Elbit’s letter, which Business Standard has reviewed, far exceeds that requirement. “We would like to confirm that Elbit Systems is committed to manufacture the ATHOS towed gun system in India, strictly and in full compliance of the ‘Make in India’ policy, with 70 per cent indigenisation (Indian value) within the contract of the first 400 towed guns,” it says.



For indigenising the first 400 ATHOS guns, Elbit has partnered the Pune-based Kalyani Group and its flagship, Bharat Forge. Once production of the Indian Army’s next 1,180 guns shifts to the OFB, Elbit and the Kalyani Group intend to continue building ATHOS guns together for the global market.



“We will take the required actions to brand the ATHOS as an Indian towed gun system, fully manufactured in India. Elbit is also committed to use its Global Supply Chains for export of the fully indigenous ATHOS gun, produced, assembled and tested in India to other countries around the globe,” states the letter, signed by Elbit’s vice-president, Yehuda Vered.



In addition to full ToT to enable OFB to build 1,180 guns, Elbit writes it has taken “very decisive, firm and committed steps” to partner Indian companies to indigenise the first 400 guns. These include establishing a joint venture (JV) with Bharat Forge called BF Elbit Advanced Systems Private Ltd; and a JV with Alpha Design Technologies called Alpha ELSEC Private Ltd. “Elbit Systems is also in the process of concluding a JV with Aditya Precitech Private Ltd, Hyderabad,” writes Elbit.



In its response to the MoD’s tender, Elbit System’s ATHOS gun turned out to be priced a whopping 40 per cent cheaper than the Nexter gun. Elbit quoted €477 million for 400 guns, compared to €776 million quoted by Nexter, say sources privy to the tender process.



That means each ATHOS gun is priced at €1.2 million (~10.7 crore per piece), while Nexter’s would cost €1.94 million or ~17.3 crore per piece.



At that price, the ATHOS is barely half the cost of the indigenously designed, developed and manufactured Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), which is estimated to be priced at close to ~20 crore per piece.



Perhaps for this reason, the MoD has kept the door open for importing the ATHOS, while the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) continues with trials of the ATAGS, which it is developing in public-private partnership with Bharat Forge and the Tata Group.



Business Standard had reported (November 30, Artillery import embargo put off, doors open for ~23,700 cr Israeli guns) that the MoD — which had earlier embargoed the import of all 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns from December 31, 2020 — reversed course on August 21 and permitted imports for another year, that is till December 31, 2021.



Buying 155 mm artillery for the army has proved extremely difficult since the controversial Bofors FH77B procurement in the late 1980s. Since these heavy guns proved to be a battle-winning weapon in the 1999 Kargil War, successive governments have tried in vain to conclude a contract for buying more. However, the reverberations of the Bofors scandal ensured that successive procurement attempts came to nought.



A breakthrough came only in March 2019, after three years of exhaustive trials, when Elbit’s ATHOS gun was declared the “preferred supplier/vendor” — the MoD’s terminology for the lowest qualified bidder (L-1).



However, a contract is still to be concluded. MoD sources say there is concern within the defence establishment that the low cost of the ATHOS might render the procurement of the indigenous ATAGS problematic later. Both of them are 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns but ATHOS’ cost is far lower.



There are also lower calibre guns under procurement, including the 155 mm, 39-calibre ultralight howitzer, of which 145 pieces are being procured from BAE Systems Inc. Besides that, the OFB is building 140 pieces of the Dhanush 155 mm, 45-calibre gun, which it has developed from the blueprints of the Bofors FH77B howitzer.

 

[crixus]

TIFWIW, he's back again:

Elbit offers to build 70% of 155 mm artillery gun in India; at about half the cost of the indigenous ATAGS​

By Ajai Shukla

Business Standard, 9 December 20



After quoting far cheaper than French gunmaker Nexter in a government tender to supply the Indian Army with 1,580 artillery guns, Israeli firm Elbit Systems has written to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, sweetening its offer by promising to build 70 per cent of the weapon in India.



That is significantly higher indigenisation than the 50 per cent required for “Make in India” projects.



The Ministry of Defence (MoD) tender requires Elbit Systems to supply the first 400 of its ATHOS 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns in fully built or knocked-down condition, with no indigenisation requirements. The remaining 1,180 guns, which the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has to manufacture with transfer of technology (ToT) from Elbit, must be at least 50 per cent made in India.



Elbit’s letter, which Business Standard has reviewed, far exceeds that requirement. “We would like to confirm that Elbit Systems is committed to manufacture the ATHOS towed gun system in India, strictly and in full compliance of the ‘Make in India’ policy, with 70 per cent indigenisation (Indian value) within the contract of the first 400 towed guns,” it says.



For indigenising the first 400 ATHOS guns, Elbit has partnered the Pune-based Kalyani Group and its flagship, Bharat Forge. Once production of the Indian Army’s next 1,180 guns shifts to the OFB, Elbit and the Kalyani Group intend to continue building ATHOS guns together for the global market.



“We will take the required actions to brand the ATHOS as an Indian towed gun system, fully manufactured in India. Elbit is also committed to use its Global Supply Chains for export of the fully indigenous ATHOS gun, produced, assembled and tested in India to other countries around the globe,” states the letter, signed by Elbit’s vice-president, Yehuda Vered.



In addition to full ToT to enable OFB to build 1,180 guns, Elbit writes it has taken “very decisive, firm and committed steps” to partner Indian companies to indigenise the first 400 guns. These include establishing a joint venture (JV) with Bharat Forge called BF Elbit Advanced Systems Private Ltd; and a JV with Alpha Design Technologies called Alpha ELSEC Private Ltd. “Elbit Systems is also in the process of concluding a JV with Aditya Precitech Private Ltd, Hyderabad,” writes Elbit.



In its response to the MoD’s tender, Elbit System’s ATHOS gun turned out to be priced a whopping 40 per cent cheaper than the Nexter gun. Elbit quoted €477 million for 400 guns, compared to €776 million quoted by Nexter, say sources privy to the tender process.



That means each ATHOS gun is priced at €1.2 million (~10.7 crore per piece), while Nexter’s would cost €1.94 million or ~17.3 crore per piece.



At that price, the ATHOS is barely half the cost of the indigenously designed, developed and manufactured Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), which is estimated to be priced at close to ~20 crore per piece.



Perhaps for this reason, the MoD has kept the door open for importing the ATHOS, while the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) continues with trials of the ATAGS, which it is developing in public-private partnership with Bharat Forge and the Tata Group.



Business Standard had reported (November 30, Artillery import embargo put off, doors open for ~23,700 cr Israeli guns) that the MoD — which had earlier embargoed the import of all 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns from December 31, 2020 — reversed course on August 21 and permitted imports for another year, that is till December 31, 2021.



Buying 155 mm artillery for the army has proved extremely difficult since the controversial Bofors FH77B procurement in the late 1980s. Since these heavy guns proved to be a battle-winning weapon in the 1999 Kargil War, successive governments have tried in vain to conclude a contract for buying more. However, the reverberations of the Bofors scandal ensured that successive procurement attempts came to nought.



A breakthrough came only in March 2019, after three years of exhaustive trials, when Elbit’s ATHOS gun was declared the “preferred supplier/vendor” — the MoD’s terminology for the lowest qualified bidder (L-1).



However, a contract is still to be concluded. MoD sources say there is concern within the defence establishment that the low cost of the ATHOS might render the procurement of the indigenous ATAGS problematic later. Both of them are 155 mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns but ATHOS’ cost is far lower.



There are also lower calibre guns under procurement, including the 155 mm, 39-calibre ultralight howitzer, of which 145 pieces are being procured from BAE Systems Inc. Besides that, the OFB is building 140 pieces of the Dhanush 155 mm, 45-calibre gun, which it has developed from the blueprints of the Bofors FH77B howitzer.

The reason is behind this article is :

 

[Nilgiri]

The reason is behind this article is :

Yah I follow the banter at BR after he posts something lol.

 

[Raptor]

Yah I follow the banter at BR after he posts something lol.

Can you describe qualities of ATAGS w.r.t ATHOS?
Also if we're going with ATAGS is it okay to compromise price?

 

[Nilgiri]

Can you describe qualities of ATAGS w.r.t ATHOS?
Also if we're going with ATAGS is it okay to compromise price?

Honestly its not my field of expertise.

I would prefer Indian MIC gets good at both developing and producing artillery since its such a basic thing.

So from that sense I would prefer ATAGs any day even with some cost premium...given others have amortisation + economy of scale from their rearview development done in earlier time period etc. Israel for example gets huge deal from US MIC on very many things....so Indian establishment must factor that all in and take a long term picture. At some point we have to get good at every basic thing a military our size requires.

 

[Zapper]

The Army will soon begin testing an indigenously-developed artillery system, which the DRDO contends is the best in its class in the world with a record-breaking strike range of 48-km. If the big gun passes muster, it can fulfill the Army’s requirement for 1,580 such guns worth over Rs 25,000 crore.

The 155mm/52 caliber advanced towed artillery gun system (ATAGS) is set to undergo “winter user trials” by the Army in Sikkim in January-February, which will be followed by the “mobility trials” and then the “summer trials” in May-June.

With the development of ATAGS, which has Bharat Forge (Kalyani Group) and Tata Advanced Systems as the production partners, DRDO officials contend the Army has no need to import such guns from Israel or other countries.

But the Army says the indigenous guns will have to first prove their worth in the forthcoming user trials. The force has a parallel project stuck in the final stages to procure 400 Athos towed gun systems for Rs 5,147 crore from Israeli firm Elbit Systems, which was originally supposed to be followed by the domestic production of another 1,180 guns in collaboration with the Ordnance Factory Board.

The Israeli gun had emerged as L-1 (lowest bidder) a year ago to beat the French one from Nexter Systems after trials. “Our procurement case for towed artillery guns has been hanging fire since 2010,” said an Army officer.

Amidst this wrangling, the user-trials of the indigenous ATAGS also got somewhat delayed after the barrel of one of the guns burst during test-firing at the Pokhran field firing range in Rajasthan, which injured four personnel, in September.

“It was most probably due to defective ammunition. There was no issue with the barrel. Over 2,000 rounds have already been successfully test-fired from the ATAGS during high-altitude trials in Sikkim and then in Pokhran,” a senior DRDO official said.

“Further tests are currently underway at the Proof and Experimental Establishment range at Balasore. Why should the Army import such guns if a much better indigenous option with a longer 48-km range is available? Other contemporary guns have a 40 to 45-km range,” he added.

The ATAGS has “excellent accuracy, consistency, mobility, reliability and automation”, and can fire five-round bursts as compared to three-round bursts by other foreign contemporary guns.

“ATAGS is also configured with an `all-electric drive technology’ for the first time in the world, which will ensure maintenance free and reliable operation over longer periods of time,” said another official.

But the Army contends DRDO often “over-promises and under-delivers”. The force has also had to contend with recurring scandals in artillery procurement projects, from the Swedish Bofors in the mid-1980s to the South African Denel in 2005 and Singapore Technology Kinetics in 2009.

It was only in 2018 that the Army finally managed to exorcise the Bofors ghost by beginning to induct 145 US-origin M-777 ultra-light howitzers (155m/39-calibre) and 100 South Korean-origin K-9 Vajra tracked self-propelled guns (155mm/52-calibre).

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...LHI: The Army will,worth over Rs 25,000 crore.

 

[Zapper]

https://www.newindianexpress.com/st...-india-atags-clears-field-trials-2238696.html

 

[crixus]

 

[Paro]

Kalyani 155mm/39.

 

[crixus]

Kalyani 155mm/39.
View attachment 9964

Pic of the day ... hope we will see Indian weapons ( from private industry ) get inducted in numbers

 

[Nilgiri]

India’s artillery modernisation programme picks up pace with new acquisitions and inductions

The Indian Army’s Artillery Modernisation programme, which was stalled for nearly two decades, has finally gained pace.

forceindia.net

Firepower is in Place​

India’s artillery modernisation programme picks up pace with new acquisitions and inductions​

Smruti D

The Indian Army’s Artillery Modernisation programme, which was stalled for nearly two decades, has finally gained pace. This programme aims at inclusion of diverse and specialised artillery equipment for the army to be used in different terrains and specialised areas of operations. Among howitzers, the programme aims at inclusion of towed, mounted and ultra-light howitzers; tracked and wheeled self-propelled artillery; missiles, multi-barrel rocket launchers, UAVs and ammunition among others.

FIRE ATAGS

As it is known, artilleries had played a pivotal role in bringing victory to India in the Kargil war against Pakistan. However, even three decades after the war, no procurements were made in this area. The modernisation was stalled because of the setbacks in procurements. After the procurement of nearly 400 pieces of 155 mm/39 calibre FH-77B howitzers in mid-Eighties, manufactured by the Swedish arms manufacturer Bofors, India inducted the US-origin M777 A2 Ultra-Light Howitzers (ULH) and K9 Vajra Self-Propelled of the Indian-South Korean make in 2018.

Artillery modernisation is important for India because it promises the inclusion of different types of artillery based on the terrain. While howitzers can function well in mountainous regions, self-propelled guns are meant for the plains.

This programme of acquiring Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan (FARP) first introduced in 1999, under which the Regiment of Artillery decided to acquire 2800-3000 155 mm/52 calibre guns of all kinds and 155 mm/39 calibre lightweight howitzers by 2027. As per reports, the acquisitions would include 814 truck-mounted guns, 1580 towed guns, 100 tracked self-propelled guns, 180 wheeled self-propelled guns and 145 ultra-light howitzers. Two other guns include the 155 mm pool of towed artillery.



M777 Howitzers

Even as the Manmohan Singh-led central government had floated a number of Request for Proposals (RFPs) for procurement of different howitzers, there arose various technical issues with the vendors, and the deals had to be scrapped. In 2008, the government of India issued a number of global tenders, none of which culminated into the final stages of acquisition. The tender floated for M777 Howitzers was one such example. Although the deal started in 2008 and trials were on, the deal was sealed only in 2016.

The ministry of defence (MoD) had in 2008 floated a RFP towards the procurement of 145 pieces of ultra-light 155 mm/39-calibre towed gun-howitzers. The cost of the deal amounted to Rs 3,000 crore. BAE Systems and Singapore Technologies were the two companies shortlisted for this deal. However, in 2009, Singapore Technologies came to be blacklisted. As the BAE Systems was the only contender left, the Indian government initiated a government-to-government deal for 145 M777 howitzers.

This deal between India and the US was finally signed under NDA government in 2016 with a ‘Make in India’ component in a government-to-government deal. The deal is worth USD737 million and consists of a 30 per cent offset clause worth USD200 million. Of the total 145 M777 pieces, 120 will be made within the country and the remaining 25 will come in a flyaway condition from the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM), the BAE Systems. The US-based company has tied up with Mahindra Defence to complete the manufacturing of these guns. Reports have stated that by the end of 2021, the acquisition of M777 will be completed. It’s not known how many M777s have been inducted into the army till now. However, by March 2020, the delivery of 25 pieces of these guns were completed and it was reported that by the end of 2020, 70 more would be delivered.

Amidst the border challenge with China, India has deployed these M777 Howitzers in Eastern Ladakh. This gun has a range of 30 km. This artillery can be easily airlifted and carried by the Chinook helicopters, which will give the army an edge in the mountains.



K9 Vajra-T

The K9 Vajra-T is a Self-Propelled Artillery jointly manufactured by Indian defence firm Larsen & Toubro (L&T) and South Korea’s Hanwha Techwin. The army has so far inducted 51 pieces of this artillery. Hundred pieces K9 Vajra, a 155mm/52 calibre howitzer were ordered by the Indian Army in 2017 at a cost of USD583 million.

It is a tracked and self-propelled artillery originally developed by Samsung for the South Korean military. It was earlier known as ‘K9 Thunder’. Hanwha Defense had supplied the first batch of 10 guns to the Indian Army in November 2019 and the rest of the 41 had been manufactured and provided three months ahead of the schedule. L&T, the India partner to complete the order, was given the responsibility of manufacturing 90 guns.

K9 Vajra weighs 50 tonnes. It can fire 47 kg bombs at 43-km distant targets. It has the ‘shoot and scoot’ capability. The acquisition of 1580 155mm/52 calibre guns is the largest artillery acquisition that will be stretched over a period of 12-15 years.



ATAGS

Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), a 155 mm/ 52 calibre gun, is being jointly developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in partnership with Bharat and Tata power Strategic Engineering Division (SED). These guns are in their trial phase. The army will put them to test in Sikkim in January-February for the winter-use trials. They are yet to undergo ‘mobility’ and summer trials. These guns had suffered a setback in September 2020 when a barrel of one of the ATAGS pieces undergoing trials burst at Pokhran.

Up until now, there have been cases of barrel explosion in different artilleries. It happened with ATAGS, the Dhanush and also with M777 A2 procured from the US. However, it has been blamed on faulty ammunition.

ATAGS have been designed by Armament Research Development Establishment (ARDE) of the DRDO. While the guns have been made by both Bharat Forge and Tata Power SED, the barrel has been solely made by Bharat Forge. The range of these guns is 48 km. It fires five round bursts. These artilleries are said to consist of 95 per cent indigenous content.

ATAGS operate on an all-electric drive. The gun controls, ammunition handling, opening and closing the breech and ramming the round into the chamber are all done electrically, which makes it faster than its competitors. The deal to procure 150 of these guns was signed in 2018.



ATHOS

To meet a requirement of 1580 guns in this category, the MoD has shortlisted Elbit Systems after floating a tender to procure these. Elbit Systems’ (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) ATHOS 2025 from Israel won against the French gunmaker Nexter’s TRAJAN in the tender to supply the Indian Army with 1580 artillery guns due to its comparatively low pricing.

As per a report in the Business Standard, Elbit Systems has written to the MoD that they would offer 70 per cent weapon-building in India, which is significantly more than the required 50 per cent under India’s ‘Make in India’ programme. The MoD requires Elbit Systems to supply first 400 pieces of ATHOS 155 mm/52-calibre towed artillery guns in ‘fully built or knocked-down condition’. The Indian partner of Elbit Systems is Bharat Forge. The cost of the deal is estimated to be USD1.2 billion. These guns have a firing range of above 40 km.



Sharang

The Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) in February handed over the first 130 mm M-46 artillery gun upgraded to 155 mm to the Indian Army at the DefExpo that took place in February 2020. The gun is a vintage Soviet-origin towed artillery.

In 2013, the army had issued an RFP for the OFB as well as the private sector companies. In competitive bidding, the OFB won the bid. In 2018, the army awarded a contract to upgrade 300 of these guns to the OFB. Sharang is a 130 mm artillery gun which was ‘up-gunned’ to 155 mm/45 calibre. The up-gunning has brought an advanced range to this artillery with a boost in firepower. The gun now has a range of 36 km from earlier 27 km. The delivery for these guns will be completed by the end of 2022.



Dhanush

Like Sharang, Dhanush towed artillery gun will also be produced by the OFB. It is the first indigenously-built long-range artillery gun with a range of 38 km and has 155 mm/45 calibre. Six piece of the Dhanush artillery guns had been handed over to the army in April 2019.

The total pieces of this guns to be delivered by the OFB stand at 114. It has a strike range of 38 km. The automated technology allows three to six guns to be fired simultaneously at a single target, with each gun holding the capability to fire 42 hours per round. The features of this gun include inertial navigation-based sighting system, auto-laying facility, on-board ballistic computation and an advanced day and night direct firing system. Self-propulsion allows the gun to negotiate and deploy itself.

The OFB had gained the Transfer of Technology from Bofors to produce indigenously in the Eighties. However, it had not been utilised. The design of this artillery is based on that of the Bofors gun. The second batch of these guns was to be delivered by OFB early this year, however, that did not happen in view of the Covid-19 pandemic.



Mounted Gun Systems

Another project that will prove to be significant for the Indian Army is the inclusion of Mounted Gun Systems (MGS). This project made some noise, however, there are no major developments seen. Ashok Leyland Defence Systems had formed a consortium agreement with L&T and Nexter Systems for its CAESAR artillery system with 6×6 Super Stallion chassis from Ashok Leyland. The OFB also had fielded an MGS-based on a Dhanush gun mounted on 8×8 Tatra truck produced by BEML. The latter was first unveiled in Chennai’s DefExpo and was reported to have undergone a firing test the same year in November. However, no latest developments have taken place.

Undoubtedly, this programme promises benefits to the Indian Army. The force, which was in dire need of capacity building, has finally received the much-needed push. Today, as India faces heightened tensions with its neighbours, it is mandatory for the country to keep its forces well-equipped. India has deployed its Artillery formations on its eastern as well as the western border. Experts believe, the newly procured and advanced artilleries will help them fight not just wars but also counter insurgencies prevalent on the western border with Pakistan and in the Northeast.

 

[Milspec]

@Nilgiri Venkatpathi Raju Pace?

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri Venkatpathi Raju Pace?

Arjuna Ranatunga style...why run when you can stroll?

 

[Milspec]

Arjuna Ranatunga style...why run when you can stroll?

It's just that I might be impatient, but lets spare a thought to a few things.

OFB does not manufacture 122mm ammunition for years now, i.e all d30's and 2S1 Gzovidka have been decommissioned.
Almost half of FH44 Haubits have been cannibilized.
M46 modernization to 155mm has been bouncing from excalibur to metamorphises to Punjj Lyod to OFb to Soltam and then back to OFB sharang for an astounding 12 years.

Peacemeal 100 K9 Vajra's, M177's and Dhanush are just a drop in the bucket. The army that boasts of 3:1 superiority with it's western neighbor as it stands is heavily outgunned as of today.

 

[Nilgiri]

It's just that I might be impatient, but lets spare a thought to a few things.

OFB does not manufacture 122mm ammunition for years now, i.e all d30's and 2S1 Gzovidka have been decommissioned.
Almost half of FH44 Haubits have been cannibilized.
M46 modernization to 155mm has been bouncing from excalibur to metamorphises to Punjj Lyod to OFb to Soltam and then back to OFB sharang for an astounding 12 years.

Peacemeal 100 K9 Vajra's, M177's and Dhanush are just a drop in the bucket. The army that boasts of 3:1 superiority with it's western neighbor as it stands is heavily outgunned as of today.

1990 - 2010 were pretty much 2 complete lost decades on some basic things (in MIC) we should have squared away fairly easily....given we had such things like the bofors to use as any reliable starting basis.

So yes because of catchup pressure now, actual industrial options available now.... (and babu's being same ole same ole) there is lot of lilypad hopping. But at least this last decade and coming decade are going to be better than the last 2 on this as far as sorting out goes. We'll see if we are truly in the bus (we caught late) or just hanging off the door a bit later though.

 

[Milspec]

1990 - 2010 were pretty much 2 complete lost decades on some basic things (in MIC) we should have squared away fairly easily....given we had such things like the bofors to use as any reliable starting basis.

So yes because of catchup pressure now, actual industrial options available now.... (and babu's being same ole same ole) there is lot of lilypad hopping. But at least this last decade and coming decade are going to be better than the last 2 on this as far as sorting out goes. We'll see if we are truly in the bus (we caught late) or just hanging off the door a bit later though.

not sure about the highlighted part above.