TR Missile & Smart Munition Programs

[Hexciter]

I’m putting these pictures here which shows how Iron Dome works (untold part). They’re are side kickers, not head on colliders as advertised before. It might be give insights who’ll try to develop similar.

 

[Tornadoss]

I'd say iron dome is a really successful defense system, even though it couldn't stop all the missile. And there is no other system coming into my mind that is comparable to it.

 

[Anmdt]

I’m putting these pictures here which shows how Iron Dome works (untold part). They’re are side kickers, not head on colliders as advertised before. It might be give insights who’ll try to develop similar.
View attachment 20847 View attachment 20848

@Nilgiri Those curves remind of the brachistochrone problem, probably has calculated via a minimization problem including a constraint ie. time&location to intercept at a predicted location of the tracked shells etc.

 

[Bogeyman]

Gurcan Okumus’s statement:

”TÜBİTAK SAGE geçmişten günümüze yeni teknolojilerde lider olmak için çalışmıştır. Açıkçası geçmişte bu ramjetli bir füze de bizim büyük hayalimizdi. Ama şu an RAMJET teknolojisinde geldiğimiz noktada artık SCRAMJET’i yeni ileri hedefimiz olarak görüyoruz.”

Clearly says, considering where we are with ramjet technology, our aim now is no longer Ramjet, but Scramjet.
This is very encouraging as both these engines will put Turkey in an elite class of countries that has this technology and can utilise it. This is not just a game changer technology. But a technology that will make it’s user country close to invincible, like having nuclear deterrent. It will give us more clout, make anyone contemplating attacking us, think twice before doing that.

I can already imagine the face of the Greek announcer turned to lime.

 

[Anmdt]

Definitely a game changer, note it will possibly be quad-packed or beyond smoothly, thanks to the soft/cold launch system. if they could make fir missile in a 240 mm * 240mm canister, it may result in 3x3 in a single VLS tube.
Spare 8 tubes for land missions: 8 * 9= 72 missiles with different kind of seekers and launch mode.

With this plan even 40 Cells provide a great firepower in a mixed configuration:

• quad-packed G40:

8 cells 32 missiles point defense​

• quad-packed modified gökdoğan:

8 cells 32 missiles for various needs of rapid response against hypersonic missiles​

• single packed Hisar-N , Hisar-U & Siper :

16 cells 16 missiles for various other long-range engagement​

• 9-packed Kuzgun;

8 cells 72 missiles for surface&land engagement.​

• In addition to:

1 x CIWS launcher with a new kind of missile ,and/or​

1/2x Gun based CIWS optionally with guided shells​

And toz-koparan is nickname of a guy who had broken "Toz" several times holding the record for maximum distance & probably fastest shot.

I can already foresee the MLU of Tuzla-Class and Ada-Class; (Not all belongs to both)

Short-Cell VLS (S-EDAS), installed via add-on modules hosting modified Gökdoğan-Bozdoğan and Kuzgun-VL,​

Bozdoğan based CIWS,​

Winged miniature torpedo, multi-packed into S-EDAS,​

Guided ASW Rockets,​

Above-Deck launcher for Sungur-D,​

Piri IRST,​

I hope we don't see two separate VLS for different missiles. Main contractor of Siper program is Tubitak SAGE and they are working together with Roketsan in many missile programs so i think EDAS is the new name of MIDAS VLS

Probably EDAS is more like Ex-LS extensible launching system and MIDAS is MK41.
EDAS can be used within MIDAS, if all missiles are converted to cold launch then exhaust funnels on MIDAS would be removed. Until then the funnels will remain to allow mixed use of hot/cold launch.

 

[Huelague]

• In the context of close air defense and cruise missile defense, it seems that the adapted version of air-to-air missiles is mostly used as a close air defense system.

• BOZDOGAN can also be used in the same way we see. We also have serious work on using our bozdogan missile as a close-to-ship air defense missile such as RAM (Rolling Airframe Missile).

• In fact, if we summarize, we can say Bozdogan for very close guided munitions defense, Gökdoğan for near/medium range air defense and G-40 for medium range air defense.

• TÜBİTAK SAGE develops technologies related to G-40, EDAS and Lateral Propulsion Engines to reduce the reaction time against air defense threats especially in ships, and aims to bring air defense missiles such as CAMM and CAMM ER to our Naval Forces Command. (EDAS=Esnek Dikey Atım Sistemi)

• TÜBİTAK SAGE is not only developing the cold vertical launch technology, but also a similar technology called soft vertical launch with some differences. In addition, studies are carried out on divert attitude control technology that complements this.

@Combat-Master

???

 

[Khagan1923]

I can already foresee the MLU of Tuzla-Class and Ada-Class; (Not all belongs to both)

Short-Cell VLS (S-EDAS), installed via add-on modules hosting modified Gökdoğan-Bozdoğan and Kuzgun-VL,​

Bozdoğan based CIWS,​

Winged miniature torpedo, multi-packed into S-EDAS,​

Guided ASW Rockets,​

Above-Deck launcher for Sungur-D,​

Piri IRST,​

Probably EDAS is more like Ex-LS extensible launching system and MIDAS is MK41.
EDAS can be used within MIDAS, if all missiles are converted to cold launch then exhaust funnels on MIDAS would be removed. Until then the funnels will remain to allow mixed use of hot/cold launch.

S-EDAS, if its a thing, will give us the ability to produce smaller but more potent ships. But even EDAS and MIDAS can be used together on bigger ships, like on the CSC which uses Mk41 Cells for Tomahawk, ESSM and SM-2 and ExLS for CAMM.

I don't see both as competition against each other but instead as something to complement one another.

Like you said we could develop our own Saar 6 corvettes capable of Airspace denial, precision strikes on land and ASW. I don't know if ADA Class can be modified to satisfaction or if another design would be needed, but that is up to the Navy and the engineers to figure out in the future.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Probably EDAS is more like Ex-LS extensible launching system and MIDAS is MK41.
EDAS can be used within MIDAS, if all missiles are converted to cold launch then exhaust funnels on MIDAS would be removed. Until then the funnels will remain to allow mixed use of hot/cold launch

This makes perfect sense. Modular and flexible structure and interoperability between EDAS and MIDAS. EDAS will be a special missile canister launcher that will convert the single MIDAS cell for dual or quad or six soft/cold launch missile or ground strike missile and/or fit different missiles in same cells.

LockheedMartin Mk41 and QPELS or ExLS launcher solution

BAE Mk25 solution for Mk41VLS

 

[Nilgiri]

@Nilgiri Those curves remind of the brachistochrone problem, probably has calculated via a minimization problem including a constraint ie. time&location to intercept at a predicted location of the tracked shells etc.

IIRC, a famous historical anecdote in this area early on goes something like this:

Question to Bernoulli (after he saw "the" unsigned answer to such problem posed in open letter):

How did you know that answer was his (Newton)?

Bernoulli: I recognised the paw of the lion

 

[Nilgiri]

"TozKoparan" refers "speed" to me. It is something like "passed like a strong wind and took off the dust" so this name is giving some clue about its specifications. I believe new missile will be powerful and faster enough to deserve this name. To make it more powerful, we need a new propulsion system apart from solid fuel

Mr Gürcan Okumuş stated that they have developed Ramjet and are going to test domestic liquid RAMJET on a missile by using SAGE's supersonic test infrastructure next year. Under the lights of these speeches, I believe TozKoparan will be the new name of RAMJET missile.

The missile having Liquid Ramjet propulsion:

• Brahmos supersonic missile, @Nilgiri
• Russian P800 Oniks/Yakhont

Mr Gürcan Okumuş stated that SCRAMJET is new advanced target of Tübitak SAGE and they have started planning to build hypersonic wind tunnel infrastructure.

The missile having Scramjet propulsion:

• Russian Zircon

Important area for Turkey to get into for sure. Ramjet especially will give lot of applications in supersonic realm right away in the missile ecosystem Turkey has already established strongly.

Zircon (like all scramjets worldwide) is still being developed+tested. It may also form some basis for Brahmos-II.

It's exact nature w.r.t how long the scramjet portion runs w.r.t booster reliance remains to be seen as scramjets are still in process of maturing (it will probably show up in economics of deployment by Russia, which we will see in coming decade or so).

Indian (ongoing) scramjet program is HSTDV. There has been one atmospheric test of it.

SFDR (solid fuel ducted ramjet) is maturing and will be used in upcoming A2A Astra family.

More traditional Ramjet is of course in full employ in Brahmos and will be improved upon for Brahmos-NG. This ToT from Russia was restricted at first, but expanded once India joined MTCR.

 

[Hexciter]

Any one knows what the proposed diameter of Kuzgun?

 

[Kartal1]

Any one knows what the proposed diameter of Kuzgun?

I was also about to ask.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Any one knows what the proposed diameter of Kuzgun?

Not mentioned in open sources. Although it is 180cm in length, as it is going to be a modular design missile , the width should stay same throughout and length should vary.
This is almost a copy of spear 3 missile which has a diameter of 180mm. So logically we are looking at a missile with an approximate diameter of 18cm.
Aselsan’s Miniature Bomb is 17cm in diameter with similar length.

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/Minyatur_Bomba_4822.pdf

SPEAR 3 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Combat-Master]

Gurcan Okumus’s statement:

”TÜBİTAK SAGE geçmişten günümüze yeni teknolojilerde lider olmak için çalışmıştır. Açıkçası geçmişte bu ramjetli bir füze de bizim büyük hayalimizdi. Ama şu an RAMJET teknolojisinde geldiğimiz noktada artık SCRAMJET’i yeni ileri hedefimiz olarak görüyoruz.”

Clearly says, considering where we are with ramjet technology, our aim now is no longer Ramjet, but Scramjet.
This is very encouraging as both these engines will put Turkey in an elite class of countries that has this technology and can utilise it. This is not just a game changer technology. But a technology that will make it’s user country close to invincible, like having nuclear deterrent. It will give us more clout, make anyone contemplating attacking us, think twice before doing that.

Nuclear weapons are the ultimate weapon - there is no comparison. Doesn't matter how fast your missile is, if it is not tipped with 1,000 kiloton bomb that can devastate an entire city it is just a conventional deterrence no different to regular cruise missiles. It's certainly not like having nuclear deterrence.

I was against nuclear weapons development before, but seeing as how we can not rely on NATO countries so-called allies - Turkey should IMO start a nuclear weapons development programme to counter Iran, Russia and Israel in the region.

 

[Zafer]

Nuclear weapons are the ultimate weapon - there is no comparison. Doesn't matter how fast your missile is, if it is not tipped with 1,000 kiloton bomb that can devastate an entire city it is just a conventional deterrence no different to regular cruise missiles. It's certainly not like having nuclear deterrence.

I was against nuclear weapons development before, but seeing as how we can not rely on NATO countries so-called allies - Turkey should IMO start a nuclear weapons development programme to counter Iran, Russia and Israel in the region.

+France

 

[Combat-Master]

Camera 'pod' (LEFT) resembling AMRAAM to record launch of SOM-B1 Missile.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Nuclear weapons are the ultimate weapon - there is no comparison. Doesn't matter how fast your missile is, if it is not tipped with 1,000 kiloton bomb that can devastate an entire city it is just a conventional deterrence no different to regular cruise missiles. It's certainly not like having nuclear deterrence.

I was against nuclear weapons development before, but seeing as how we can not rely on NATO countries so-called allies - Turkey should IMO start a nuclear weapons development programme to counter Iran, Russia and Israel in the region.

You are correct! Nothing can be as devastating and powerful as having a nuclear weapon. I also agree that we should have our own nuclear weapons. But without publicising it. A bit like Israel did. May be even stealthier. If only a guess is there that we may have possession of nuclear deterrence, that in itself is enough.
But nuclear weapons are not the sort of weapons you can use at your convenience. It has big repercussions in so many ways; From moral issues to retaliation to political desertion. Yet hypersonic weapons are easy to use without the drawbacks of the nuclear ones. But with all the benefits of giving maximum damage to enemy. As it stands even the countries that have them don’t really have an answer to stop them. That is why I said deterrence “like” nuclear.

 

[BordoEnes]

Nuclear weapons are the ultimate weapon - there is no comparison. Doesn't matter how fast your missile is, if it is not tipped with 1,000 kiloton bomb that can devastate an entire city it is just a conventional deterrence no different to regular cruise missiles. It's certainly not like having nuclear deterrence.

I was against nuclear weapons development before, but seeing as how we can not rely on NATO countries so-called allies - Turkey should IMO start a nuclear weapons development programme to counter Iran, Russia and Israel in the region.

I 100% agree with you. There have been a genuine interest in the last couple years among Turks to finally push for Nuclear weapons. I guess we all collectively understood that we could no longer rely on our so called "allies" to secure or security and interest within the region. So many issues could have been avoided by the mere existence of nuclear weapons. Just looking at how Israel dares to behave should show the sheer political/diplomatic weight of having them.

 

[Ryder]

3 weapons that create a lot of fear is Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons.

These 3 are the ultimate deterents against would be enenies who threaten your country.

 

[Fuzuli NL]

3 weapons that create a lot of fear is Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons.

These 3 are the ultimate deterents against would be enenies who threaten your country.

I don't think biological or chemical weapons have a comparable shelf-life/ maintenance or deterrence as the nuclear weapons.
The latter is just a different league.
Iraq, Syria have tried to use these as means of deterrence and prestige to a certain extent. Both Saddam and Assad ended up using them on own people in the end.