India India - Pakistan Relations

[Jackdaws]

What is that. Some sort of delusion? Let me make it clear to you. South Asia was as disjointed as Europe, if not more. Europe is actually more homogenous then South Asia. The "India" was the British Raj and result of British conquest no differant from the German Reich - only the latter was destroyed. The German Reich was destroyed and reverted to differant countries as diverse as Libya, Poland and France today. The British Raj ended with successor states being Burma [Myanmar], Bangladesh, India, Pakistan. Here I hope this makes it clear.

Just to clear your delusion the capital of this Raj was built by British, ruled by British, had British flag aloft it and issued British passports to it's citizens. India came into existence on 15th 1947.

And if you play that childish game of "oh there was India" the name well there is Romania today, there are Romany Gypsies today but I don't they can pretend to be Romans can they? Or West Indians?

View attachment 23131

View attachment 23132

View attachment 23133

Agreed. Wish China would understand that logic and not invade independent nations like Tibet.

 

[FalconSlayersDFI]

Agreed. Wish China would understand that logic and not invade independent nations like Tibet.

He doesn’t know the concept of India, by that logic His own country is made up of 4 countries and is eyeing on a “fifth one”.

 

[Jackdaws]

Meanwhile -

Pakistan warns India any further step on IOK could imperil region’s peace

FO says Pakistan will continue to oppose Indian attempts to change the demographic structure and status of IOK.

www.dawn.com

Pakistan on Thursday warned India against taking any further steps regarding Indian-occupied Kashmir (IOK), saying it could “imperil regional peace and security”.

They don't even seem to have a policy.

 

[Nilgiri]

He doesn’t know the concept of India, by that logic His own country is made up of 4 countries and is eyeing on a “fifth one”.

Lot of earlier debate involves resolution and conflation on what a nation is compared to country (and not coming to any conclusion on it with folks that made up their minds long time ago).

To me there is a clear distinction between nation (long term and not needing political bounding) and country (present context + politically bounded). A country is often called nation-state to make this distinction clearer.

Historical revisionism + extreme neo-nationalism (i.e unsound/illogical/non-chronological... back to front variant of elder nationalism in the drive for political expedience or justification) inevitably involves some (partial or extreme) conflation of these.

We take stock of simple matters like the Mahabharat mentioning kingdoms like Gandhara (given the major role one character originating from there plays in the epic) alongside kingdoms of Kuru dynasty and then further east (Pancala, Kosala, Magadh, Anga) etc....and how these carried on in time and space (whatever political unities or disunities inherited the national realm) by the hearts, minds, language and cultural expression of its people to persist to their clear equivalencies today.

It is well known which "latest possible" time this epic is dated to, what language it is written in (and which country holds that as an official language today) and what all named foreign civilisations (from that time and that continue today with no need for new names) referred to this nation as.

When you don't have that for whatever reason (inside the head and heart where the nation ultimately bridges in present from past to future) you inevitably need to make new names and start the revisionism in the predictable sad exercise of exclusivity and supremacy.

The state of countries inner realised confidence on these matters has expressed itself already, continues to express itself and will continue to express on realised numbers of note (w.r.t civilisation, knowledge and development) that will just continue to diverge.

This is because of the psychological investment involved by elitists and their blind followers in untruth (and this only grows downstream). It takes far far more energy because it is untruth....and that energy is simply not expended on (far more important) areas that come naturally to countries that are not vice-locked in this self-doubt and needing to invest grievous mental energy/faculty there.

Mark my words on this one, Persia and India will continue to produce fine grandmasters in both quantity and quality in the civilisation intersection that was "Shatranj" this century.

The void (of the matter I speak of) between them will continue to produce absolute zilch on that predictably as well.

It is a matter of humour whenever our best meets one of their Persian best. Why not even one from some entity in between us?

i.e 1/6th representation of ours....or 3 times Persia's...to fulfill basic asserted realisation commensurate to population?

So you see a void+new+"pure" name entity will simply mimic anthems on this "Persian" language while speaking essentially the languages of the elder nation entity.....confused what it even is but asserting it isn't....for no old book carries such a name in first place.

The particular irony here also being "Shatranj" (the persian word) comes from.....Sanskrit.

BTW It reflects just one area of intellectual endeavour. Open up same thing on missiles, space, medicine.....those that confidently carry civilisational weight simply ARE in the numbers (coming from, and going to)... and those don't simply blab about it endlessly and end up where they are to show for it. Then predictably whine about whatever conspiracy and excuse....and circle back to the supremacy/exceptionalism/revisionism in clownish fashion to strawman. Its never ending cycle, it is best for us to pay as little to no attention to it.

We have far greater ambition and the journey to renaissance is just starting (stuff like getting our TFR to 2.1, rather than have it like the middle of subsaharan africa to match the typical savings rate there too). There is much work to do and it will only be encumbered by focusing way too much on lost causes and deadweight....former brothers though they may be.

 

[FalconSlayersDFI]

Meanwhile -

Pakistan warns India any further step on IOK could imperil region’s peace

FO says Pakistan will continue to oppose Indian attempts to change the demographic structure and status of IOK.

www.dawn.com

Pakistan on Thursday warned India against taking any further steps regarding Indian-occupied Kashmir (IOK), saying it could “imperil regional peace and security”.

They don't even seem to have a policy.

What will they do? We already expected a new song, but this time thry made a whole web series Dhoop ki deewar. Pakistan should understand Kashmir is a lost case and should focus on what it has, spending money on insurgency in Kashmir against India will only make it bankrupt.

 

[crixus]

The best working formula with Pakistan is ignore , just stop talking on all visible fronts and ensure that counter intl grid and count terror grid remain robust .

Dealing with Pakistan is like pig fight

 

[Kaptaan]

Lot of earlier debate involves resolution and conflation on what a nation is compared to country (and not coming to any conclusion on it with folks that made up their minds long time ago).

To me there is a clear distinction between nation (long term and not needing political bounding) and country (present context + politically bounded). A country is often called nation-state to make this distinction clearer.

Historical revisionism + extreme neo-nationalism (i.e unsound/illogical/non-chronological... back to front variant of elder nationalism in the drive for political expedience or justification) inevitably involves some (partial or extreme) conflation of these.

We take stock of simple matters like the Mahabharat mentioning kingdoms like Gandhara (given the major role one character originating from there plays in the epic) alongside kingdoms of Kuru dynasty and then further east (Pancala, Kosala, Magadh, Anga) etc....and how these carried on in time and space (whatever political unities or disunities inherited the national realm) by the hearts, minds, language and cultural expression of its people to persist to their clear equivalencies today.

It is well known which "latest possible" time this epic is dated to, what language it is written in (and which country holds that as an official language today) and what all named foreign civilisations (from that time and that continue today with no need for new names) referred to this nation as.

When you don't have that for whatever reason (inside the head and heart where the nation ultimately bridges in present from past to future) you inevitably need to make new names and start the revisionism in the predictable sad exercise of exclusivity and supremacy.

The state of countries inner realised confidence on these matters has expressed itself already, continues to express itself and will continue to express on realised numbers of note (w.r.t civilisation, knowledge and development) that will just continue to diverge.

This is because of the psychological investment involved by elitists and their blind followers in untruth (and this only grows downstream). It takes far far more energy because it is untruth....and that energy is simply not expended on (far more important) areas that come naturally to countries that are not vice-locked in this self-doubt and needing to invest grievous mental energy/faculty there.

Mark my words on this one, Persia and India will continue to produce fine grandmasters in both quantity and quality in the civilisation intersection that was "Shatranj" this century.

The void (of the matter I speak of) between them will continue to produce absolute zilch on that predictably as well.

It is a matter of humour whenever our best meets one of their Persian best. Why not even one from some entity in between us?

i.e 1/6th representation of ours....or 3 times Persia's...to fulfill basic asserted realisation commensurate to population?

So you see a void+new+"pure" name entity will simply mimic anthems on this "Persian" language while speaking essentially the languages of the elder nation entity.....confused what it even is but asserting it isn't....for no old book carries such a name in first place.

The particular irony here also being "Shatranj" (the persian word) comes from.....Sanskrit.

BTW It reflects just one area of intellectual endeavour. Open up same thing on missiles, space, medicine.....those that confidently carry civilisational weight simply ARE in the numbers (coming from, and going to)... and those don't simply blab about it endlessly and end up where they are to show for it. Then predictably whine about whatever conspiracy and excuse....and circle back to the supremacy/exceptionalism/revisionism in clownish fashion to strawman. Its never ending cycle, it is best for us to pay as little to no attention to it.

We have far greater ambition and the journey to renaissance is just starting (stuff like getting our TFR to 2.1, rather than have it like the middle of subsaharan africa to match the typical savings rate there too). There is much work to do and it will only be encumbered by focusing way too much on lost causes and deadweight....former brothers though they may be.

So you redacted the thread when I replied when some esteemed Ganga-wallahs took exception probably sent hailstorm of PMs to you to act but then post a long rant against Pakistan. And don't start frothing just because I used 'Ganga'walla' because you know it merely refers to those hail from Ganga basin.

The idea of nation or even state is a very recent invention. India did not exist before the British arrived. If your talking about civilization that is a moving, amorphous concept that can be adduced by the person who looks at it.

Your country has been exposed by the covid pandemic. Sing all you like about and is more analogous in many ways to SSA then I care to mention.

 

[Kaptaan]

Dealing with Pakistan is like pig fight

Dealing with India is like sharing air with Dalits. Best kept sealed off across the Radclife Line.

 

[Kaptaan]

Earlier in the day I drove past bunch of Romani Gyspsies. Apparently they claim that lineage with Roman Empire. Logic? Well they are Romas? But then the Romanian's too claim Roman Empire because of their name.

Which leaves the Italians looking on bemused. After all Italy is just a modern creation.

 

[Jackdaws]

So you redacted the thread when I replied when some esteemed Ganga-wallahs took exception probably sent hailstorm of PMs to you to act but then post a long rant against Pakistan. And don't start frothing just because I used 'Ganga'walla' because you know it merely refers to those hail from Ganga basin.

The idea of nation or even state is a very recent invention. India did not exist before the British arrived. If your talking about civilization that is a moving, amorphous concept that can be adduced by the person who looks at it.

Your country has been exposed by the covid pandemic. Sing all you like about and is more analogous in many ways to SSA then I care to mention.

Civilization is not a moving, amorphous concept. Only point of contention would be the border areas of that civilization which would share something with the adjoining civilization. The Indic civilization extends between the Persian civilization to the edge of South East Asia.

 

[Jackdaws]

Earlier in the day I drove past bunch of Romani Gyspsies. Apparently they claim that lineage with Roman Empire. Logic? Well they are Romas? But then the Romanian's too claim Roman Empire because of their name.

Which leaves the Italians looking on bemused. After all Italy is just a modern creation.

Actually it was earlier believed they were from Egypt - hence "gyp". Now it has been proven they are originally from India.

Anyway, why get confused between Empire and Civilization? They are two distinct things.

 

[crixus]

Dealing with India is like sharing air with Dalits. Best kept sealed off across the Radclife Line.

Exactly , dont deal with India .... we have nothing in common you know two nation theory .

If being dalits will help in ignoring Pakistan and getting rid of pig fight , I am OK to be a dalit .

It will be best if all dealings like water agreements , shimla agreement and what ever minial business we are doing stop it immediately .

Hopefully your smart PM will not take another U turn and start dealing with India without restoring the previos status of J&K as per Indian constitution.

 

[crixus]

Meanwhile -

Pakistan warns India any further step on IOK could imperil region’s peace

FO says Pakistan will continue to oppose Indian attempts to change the demographic structure and status of IOK.

www.dawn.com

Pakistan on Thursday warned India against taking any further steps regarding Indian-occupied Kashmir (IOK), saying it could “imperil regional peace and security”.

They don't even seem to have a policy.

LOL, did they suggest any action against India or they will just stand outside for half an hour on every Friday afternoon in protest.

 

[Jackdaws]

LOL, did they suggest any action against India or they will just stand outside for half an hour on every Friday afternoon in protest.

Nope. AFAIK such statements are for domestic consumption.

 

[crixus]

Nope. AFAIK such statements are for domestic consumption.

Believe me their leaders ( elected , selected what ever) speechs in UN are also for their own local consumption or may be soothing their military masters.

Intelligence people know better how to deal with Pakistan so better let them handle it . I think the current policy of ignoring Pakistan and not spending any efforts on the optics of talks is working fine .

NSA + intl chiefs should be the only people to deal with Pakistan under supervision of PMO . This country is not even worthy of our foreign minister's time , if he spend same time on lets say Peru in latin american that will be more fruitful in India's international relations and may improve the the livelihood of some people in India and Peru

 

[Raptor]

So you redacted the thread when I replied when some esteemed Ganga-wallahs took exception probably sent hailstorm of PMs to you to act but then post a long rant against Pakistan. And don't start frothing just because I used 'Ganga'walla' because you know it merely refers to those hail from Ganga basin.

The idea of nation or even state is a very recent invention. India did not exist before the British arrived. If your talking about civilization that is a moving, amorphous concept that can be adduced by the person who looks at it.

Your country has been exposed by the covid pandemic. Sing all you like about and is more analogous in many ways to SSA then I care to mention.

I hope you know what is a difference between nation and a country
Do you about Megasthenes?
And what he said?

 

[Raptor]

Believe me their leaders ( elected , selected what ever) speechs in UN are also for their own local consumption or may be soothing their military masters.

Intelligence people know better how to deal with Pakistan so better let them handle it . I think the current policy of ignoring Pakistan and not spending any efforts on the optics of talks is working fine .

NSA + intl chiefs should be the only people to deal with Pakistan under supervision of PMO . This country is not even worthy of our foreign minister's time , if he spend same time on lets say Peru in latin american that will be more fruitful in India's international relations and may improve the the livelihood of some people in India and Peru

Pakistanis live delusions that it's india who is eager to talk with Pakistan actually it's the reverse.
False bravado!!!!!!

 

[crixus]

I hope you know what is a difference between nation and a country

Dude let me ask you one thing

Turks will be Turks with out without Islam
Persians will be Persians with or without Islam
Arabs will be Arabs with or without Islam
Syrians will be Syrians with or without Islam
Egyptians will be Egyptians with or without Islam
Iraqis will be Itaqis withor without Islam.

Now my actual question is what Pakistanis will be without Islam may be just a bunch whose only existence is they hate the relegion of their forefathers , they hate India may be some wanna be Arabs or Turks or Kazaks .

The root cause of problem is identity crisis and no talk of what ever level will solve it

 

[crixus]

Pakistanis live delusions that it's india who is eager to talk with Pakistan actually it's the reverse.
False bravado!!!!!!

Why India will ever want to talk to Pakistan , what purpose it will server other then all talks end up in some kind of attacks in India ( Mumbai , Patahnkot , uri )

 

[Jackdaws]

Dude let me ask you one thing

Turks will be Turks with out without Islam
Persians will be Persians with or without Islam
Arabs will be Arabs with or without Islam
Syrians will be Syrians with or without Islam
Egyptians will be Egyptians with or without Islam
Iraqis will be Itaqis withor without Islam.

Now my actual question is what Pakistanis will be without Islam may be just a bunch whose only existence is they hate the relegion of their forefathers , they hate India may be some wanna be Arabs or Turks or Kazaks .

The root cause of problem is identity crisis and no talk of what ever level will solve it

Despite literally having Hindu origin last names