TR Propulsion Systems

DBdev said:

As I said, subsonic silliness has no future. It is already dead. The proof is in the pudding. The only weapons that were effective against Israel were the hypersonic ones. The rest was just a huge pile of expensive trash. 'Silliness' was too polite a term; they were just utter trash against good Western air defense tactics. The Greece-Türkiye situation wouldn't be any different from the Israel-Iran faceoff due to the strong Western support in both cases.

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Nah, use the cheap subsonic missile to employ the ADS. The real deal comes with the hypersonic ones.

Huelague said:

Nah, use the cheap subsonic missile to employ the ADS. The real deal comes with the hypersonic ones.

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Cruise missiles can fly low and have stealth features. Being close to surface makes it difficult for radars to tell it apart from the ground as well I think when you have airborne platforms, but modern radars might be good enough for that not to matter significantly anymore.

Huelague said:

Nah, use the cheap subsonic missile to employ the ADS. The real deal comes with the hypersonic ones.

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False. Hypersonic missiles don't benefit from lame oversaturation tactics. Their SPEED is enough to overcome all modern air defenses, especially if they don't apogee at space and keep their hypersonic speed in a low altitude hypersonic glider manner.

uçuyorum said:

Cruise missiles can fly low and have stealth features. Being close to surface makes it difficult for radars to tell it apart from the ground as well I think when you have airborne platforms, but modern radars might be good enough for that not to matter significantly anymore.

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Airborne radars can see very low flying cruise missiles just fine. Fighter based AD strategy can handle anything subsonic, as America and Israel just demonstrated flawlessly. Stealth can be effective, but only if it is done right. Mastering hypersonic ballistic missiles is easier and much cheaper than mastering true stealth. And Iran just demonstrated their effectiveness against any foe.

DBdev said:

Airborne radars can see very low flying cruise missiles just fine. Fighter based AD strategy can handle anything subsonic, as America and Israel just demonstrated flawlessly. Stealth can be effective, but only if it is done right. Mastering hypersonic ballistic missiles is easier and much cheaper than mastering true stealth. And Iran just demonstrated their effectiveness against any foe.

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Hypersonics are fast but at the end may not have enough explosive payload to deliver when you optimize it to go that fast. Maybe as a kinetic penetrator against certain targets? Or well the non conventional warheads.

uçuyorum said:

Cruise missiles can fly low and have stealth features. Being close to surface makes it difficult for radars to tell it apart from the ground as well I think when you have airborne platforms, but modern radars might be good enough for that not to matter significantly anymore.

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Not every cruise missile has stealth features.

Do we really have to go through the stage of proclaiming a weapon/vehicle/system/missile/etc. is now obsolete and useless because something new/cheaper/whatever can be/should be/ must be used, every time a new system gets any mention on Twitter?

Everything has been declared dead on here at one time or the other, makes one wonder how we haven't achieved absolute peace by the virtue of every weapon system being useless already.

We have just started making our own cruise missiles with our own engines now people, have some patience. Or by the time we have hypersonic missiles, you'll be asking why we don't have particle lances or blaster rifles for our soldiers.

Is there any source showing the success of Iranian hypersonic missiles successfully hitting on Israeli targets?

Unless you have a layered missile system, be it subsonic, supersonic or hypersonic, it is all academic when it comes to real life events.

Last night we watched the Arrow system intercepting an exoatmospheric Iranian missile. That missile must have been travelling at high hypersonic speeds when it was intercepted.
Going by several Russian claims of S400 missile system intercepting hypersonic missiles and a Zircon being downed in Ukraine too, it is evident that even hypersonic missiles can be stopped with a capable well designed ADS.
We know that a missile like ESSM can stop supersonic missiles. Barak 8 can stop an Iskander missile that actually flies at hypersonic speeds during midcourse, albeit is most likely stopped by Barak 8 at terminal stage when it is travelling at supersonic speeds.

Any missile can be intercepted if you have the right system to counter it.

What is necessary here, is to have an effective layered attack missile system as well as a layered defence system.

There are instances where you will need a subsonic missile:
Like, if you need to saturate ADS inventory or,
Like, if you need your missile to hug the contours of the geography.

There are instances where you will need a hypersonic missile:
Like, when you are using a Carrier Killer ballistic missile
Like, when you have an HGV to attack high value strategic positions.

One must remember that a hypersonic missile is many times more expensive than a subsonic and a supersonic missile.
It should also be noted that to qualify for “hypersonic“ it has to travel at that speed in terminal phase.

It is “silly” to engage in a “full frontal attack” posture with a country when that country’s ADS is fully operational and you do not aim to destroy it’s ADS and radar system, by making it present itself to your anti radiation missiles, with your cheap subsonic drones and low value missiles as decoys.

Last night’s firework display was ”silly” .
It did not mean anything.

Well said. Just a curious question here. But considering how clusterbombs are getting delivered, these subsonic engines we're producing could be used to deliver payload of different kinds in the future.

I also think it was mentioned in the Israel-Palestine thread that the AD systems are better at identifying and hitting active missiles than munition that travels by it's on weight and trajectory.

Do correct me if I'm wrong

But having these propulsion systems gives us a diversity that isn't to be underestimated. We just need to have the production line to make our adversaries to think twice before messing with us.

Saithan said:

Well said. Just a curious question here. But considering how clusterbombs are getting delivered, these subsonic engines we're producing could be used to deliver payload of different kinds in the future.

I also think it was mentioned in the Israel-Palestine thread that the AD systems are better at identifying and hitting active missiles than munition that travels by it's on weight and trajectory.

Do correct me if I'm wrong

But having these propulsion systems gives us a diversity that isn't to be underestimated. We just need to have the production line to make our adversaries to think twice before messing with us.

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Exactly!
In terms of jet powered munitions, we have Kuzgun, Çakır, Atmaca, Kara Atmaca, SOM A-B-C and J, Kemankes and of course the infamous Gezgin to come yet. These subsonic cruise missiles use Kale KTJ series (ktj1750, ktj3200, ktj3700, Arat) and İdealab engines to power them. Some of them are sea skimming and manoeuvre during flight to break radar lock. Some have stealth geometry and RAM paint to make them less visible on radar systems.

Yes radar systems and seeker heads are more effective towards powered missiles when it comes to identifying them. Glide bombs are more difficult to intercept. Bombs like KGK with a stealthy geometry will be more difficult to identify and has more chance of getting through AD systems. But when you can intercept even the artillery rounds with systems like C-RAM , Phalanx and Sea-Dart missiles, anything that is flying and presenting itself as a danger, can be intercepted. It all depends on how capable your AD systems are. In most cases , “saturation” is the name of the game. A large barrage of artillery rounds will be near impossible to be stopped 100%.
Same is valid for swarm attacks of relatively cheaper Kuzgun-TJ or Çakır missiles. Being smaller they have better chance of overcoming defences.

It should however be remembered that the missile attacks of any sort is most effective when you have air superiority and you have done away with most of the enemy radar systems. EW systems like Koral that can open corridors for your missiles and UAVs to get through, play a big part in a successful missile assault.

TEI, Akşit went silent suddenly after testing TF-6000. Is there a problem with turbofan? Does anyone here know anything. Like real thrust, TIT, etc.?

@Yasar_TR what can be a '' smart framework for advanced tactical engine (s-fate)'' ? since it seems TÜBİTAK is getting lots of patents for softwares recently in this year

Quasar said:

@Yasar_TR what can be a '' smart framework for advanced tactical engine (s-fate)'' ? since it seems TÜBİTAK is getting lots of patets for softwares recently in this year


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Trademark Search

Turkish Patent and Trademark Office

www.turkpatent.gov.tr

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If I had to venture a guess, it has to do with what I describe as "loop 3" here:

Nilgiri said:

There is an emerging "loop 3" that I might get to in a later reply, but it would need good establishment of loop 2 first.

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Its big data optimisation using an "AI" and other algorithm+filter processes. The quicker you can access relevant datasets and references, the faster you can design, implement and mature things (especially if they are networked and reliant on each other)....and also economise say supercomputer time in the loop.

Isn't getting publicly searchable patents for military top secret projects is a bit..., dumb? Even if all actual info available is just a few words on a webpage. I know America does it too. But what are they going to do? Sue China if they steal a military technology idea, based on your patent?

DBdev said:

Isn't getting publicly searchable patents for military top secret projects is a bit..., dumb? Even if all actual info available is just a few words on a webpage. I know America does it too. But what are they going to do? Sue China if they steal a military technology idea, based on your patent?

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You live with it

Quasar said:

@Yasar_TR what can be a '' smart framework for advanced tactical engine (s-fate)'' ? since it seems TÜBİTAK is getting lots of patents for softwares recently in this year

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Your guess is as good as mine. But reading between the lines it has something to do with a high end jet fighter engine tech using AI.
@Nilgiri has given his views on it. I concur with what he says.

There are many articles and YouTube news channels that claim that TF35K is in production. One of them is where Mete Yarar, claiming that prototype of a 38000lbf engine for Kaan has been designed and the parts production is progressing. How much credibility he has among defence buffs is another question. But as he is adamantly and openly claiming that Kaan engine is currently in the works, one has to think that there has got to be a “smoking gun” there.

We also know that Kale, RR, TEI. Ivchenko are all working together under a consortium to put together an indigenous engine for Kaan.

So in spite of all the secrecy and not enough being known about the Kaan engine, with all above leaked information and the clear need of an indigenous engine for our TFX fighter, it is normal that there are patent applications pertaining to KAAN without making it too open. (Remember how we all had got the wind of TF6000, through patent application)

Yasar_TR said:

Your guess is as good as mine. But reading between the lines it has something to do with a high end jet fighter engine tech using AI.
@Nilgiri has given his views on it. I concur with what he says.

There are many articles and YouTube news channels that claim that TF35K is in production. One of them is where Mete Yarar, claiming that prototype of a 38000lbf engine for Kaan has been designed and the parts production is progressing. How much credibility he has among defence buffs is another question. But as he is adamantly and openly claiming that Kaan engine is currently in the works, one has to think that there has got to be a “smoking gun” there.

We also know that Kale, RR, TEI. Ivchenko are all working together under a consortium to put together an indigenous engine for Kaan.

Propulsion Systems

I know nothing of jet engine design but I am aware that it is mighty challenging. Has there ever been a case of an engine being designed, built and run for a thousand or so hours to check it works without any problems surfacing that required fixing? It looks like the prototype TF-6000 is taking...

defencehub.live

So in spite of all the secrecy and not enough being known about the Kaan engine, with all above leaked information and the clear need of an indigenous engine for our TFX fighter, it is normal that there are patent applications pertaining to KAAN without making it too open. (Remember how we all had got the wind of TF6000, through patent application)

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I heard similar things I even heard that the responsible party produced the casing of the prototype engine but there is a good time between production of initial parts and assembling the whole engine and running it. I heard the same 38000 lbf thrust claim it is probably based on detailed simulations. I'm confident that the project is moving from the design phase to the prototype production phase. I expect to see a detailed mock-up of the engine in IDEF 2025.

Quasar said:

@Yasar_TR what can be a '' smart framework for advanced tactical engine (s-fate)'' ? since it seems TÜBİTAK is getting lots of patents for softwares recently in this year


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Turkish Patent and Trademark Office

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The S- (Smart) prefix on all of these indicate that TÜBİTAK is building an ecosystem of homegrown software tools for defence including Computer-aided Engineering (CAE) and Software Development Kits (SDKs).

Likely intent of some of tools I see:
- S-RT-DevKit: Integration with GİS, TÜBİTAK's real-time operating system (RTOS).
- S-TDL: Tactical Data Link.
- S-Kinematics: Rigid-body physics simulations.
- S-Sensor: Algorithms for signal processing (Kalman, Bayes), probably for sensor fusion.
- S-Vision: Probably computer vision (CV) algorithms.
- S-Force: From the logo, we see a jet doing an s-shaped maneuver. Maybe this tool calculates load forces?
- S-CRAFT: Probably the integrated development environment (create->write code, run, analyze->simulate, fortify->test&verify, track->version control). For analysis and verification, there's likely a system modeler a-la Simulink, but tailored to work with all these frameworks. There must be a 3-D simulator component for testing CV and sensor fusion algorithms.
- S-FATE: This is likely the above-mentioned simulator component.

These are probably the tools that will be used to develop all the "smart" features of KAAN and other upcoming aircraft. Very exciting.

DBdev said:

Isn't getting publicly searchable patents for military top secret projects is a bit..., dumb? Even if all actual info available is just a few words on a webpage. I know America does it too. But what are they going to do? Sue China if they steal a military technology idea, based on your patent?

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With suitable folks involved in the inner circle decision making....its no issue at all.

You basically figure out cogent process of evaluation regarding what unique IP your organisation generated, is generating and is likely to generate and comparmentalise these into what is best served with patent filing (and its advantages) compared to what you dont file as patents but keep as trade secrets.

Patent filing has a number of advantages, you get to license and earn things and also attract HR, collaboration and so on from related patent filers around the world.

Where the disadvantages start to outweigh any advantages (huge+unique+valuable IP and easy route to copy and get away with it instead of licensing from you etc compared to your infringement routes to prosecute then)....simple, keep such things as trade secret.

But it needs proper evaluation of pros and cons for each element of IP and even IP process. There is no complete absolute argument either way.