TR Air Defence Programs

[Kaan Azman]

here is difficulty in placing Umtas in canisters because of it's unholdable wings

UMTAS-GM Block 1/2 missiles are meant to be canister launched like SPIKE NLOS; unlike UMTAS

 

[Terrain]

 

[Sanchez]

Knowing TSK, hell needs to freeze first before they go for a multirole platform tasked with both AA and anti armor.

 

[Kaan Azman]

Knowing TSK, hell needs to freeze first before they go for a multirole platform tasked with both AA and anti armor.

YALMAN can be a starting point. I am just sick of this lack in flexibile thinking

 

[Sanchez]

YALMAN can be a starting point. I am just sick of this lack in flexibile thinking

Even using Kaplan STA as a starting point for a standoff support system was a huge step that surprised me. We know they worked in implementing Cirit a decade ago on ACVs and fixed pedestal mounts. You are right that it was a starting point. An AA-AG mix though, employs two different class of soldiers, artillery(?) and air defence.

 

[boredaf]

Knowing TSK, hell needs to freeze first before they go for a multirole platform tasked with both AA and anti armor.

YALMAN can be a starting point. I am just sick of this lack in flexibile thinking

They aren't being inflexible just for the fun of it. It is easier and safer to have a vehicle dedicated to one thing, shorad in this instance, than trying to make a jack of all trades vehicle and make its crew divide their attention and expertise. Same thing goes for vehicles with anti-armor role or fire support role.

 

[Sanchez]

ADATS could be an interesting read for such a concept. Though it employed double role missiles, instead of different mounts.

 

[Kaan Azman]

Even using Kaplan STA as a starting point for a standoff support system was a huge step that surprised me. We know they worked in implementing Cirit a decade ago on ACVs and fixed pedestal mounts. You are right that it was a starting point. An AA-AG mix though, employs two different class of soldiers, artillery(?) and air defence.

I feel like the introduction to multirole systems should be done through integrating SUNGUR on new variant of YALMAN, KMC-U, which will have a wider array of missile options plus 7.62 machine gun. It is clearly stated that both laser and IIR guided missiles can be launched so I don't see any obstacles other than modifying FCS.

 

[Sanchez]

I feel like the introduction to multirole systems should be done through integrating SUNGUR on new variant of YALMAN, KMC-U, which will have a wider array of missile options plus 7.62 machine gun. It is clearly stated that both laser and IIR guided missiles can be launched so I don't see any obstacles other than modifying FCS.

ÖKK could be an interesting tester of such a platform. A KMC-U on a Pars 6x6, armed with UMTAS-GMs and Sungur.
And there's a precedent, so could be an easier sell to our dinosaurs.

 

[Terrain]

They aren't being inflexible just for the fun of it. It is easier and safer to have a vehicle dedicated to one thing, shorad in this instance, than trying to make a jack of all trades vehicle and make its crew divide their attention and expertise. Same thing goes for vehicles with anti-armor role or fire support role.

I think it would be an interesting concept. Although as you said I'm not sure about how practical it might be as this could be some kind of a stand alone umbrella for a convoy, or a village and what if we think like you, and separate the AIR to AIR and it's not within range of the vehicle that detected it? That's why it is better to have multirole vehicle that could suppress all possible targets. Some kind of a bubble around a perimeter with multilayered protection within it's range.

Sorry for the edits

 

[boredaf]

I think it would be an interesting concept although not sure about how practical it might be as it could be some kind of an umbrella for a convoy or a village and what if the air to air is not within range? That's why a multirole vehicle that could have a bubble of multilayered protection of it's range is ideal.

If a convoy or location is important enough to require mechanized protection we can afford to put 2 vehicles there. As a concept it might be interesting but I don't think it would help us to halve either air defense or anti-armour or infantry capability of a vehicle just so we can have 1 less vehicle in a convoy.

 

[Kaan Azman]

HİSAR-D Block 2 based on ROKETSAN's scaled MİDLAS model from IDEF'23

 

[Terrain]

If a convoy or location is important enough to require mechanized protection we can afford to put 2 vehicles there. As a concept it might be interesting but I don't think it would help us to halve either air defense or anti-armour or infantry capability of a vehicle just so we can have 1 less vehicle in a convoy.

Another thought think small scale internal conflict so rather than a town think a village, as it seems BURC is designed for low-intensity conflict (LIC).

So if we are at war with a neighboring country and internal uprising was triggered. We send this to villages that are suspected of attacking a base nearby. So the dude's will go in and paint target, the system rains in missiles. Terror groups send in Quadcopter with improvised or air dropped mortar rounds like in Ukraine, the system takes that down. Think this is attached to a search convoy from a local Kalekol of few Cobra2/Ejder/Vuran with limited resources.

 

[boredaf]

Another thought think small scale internal conflict so rather than a town think a village, as it seems BURC is designed for low-intensity conflict (LIC).

So if we are at war with a neighboring country and internal uprising was triggered. We send this to villages that are suspected of attacking a base nearby. So the dude's will go in and paint target, the system rains in missiles. Terror groups send in Quadcopter with improvised or air dropped mortar rounds like in Ukraine, the system takes that down. Think this is attached to a search convoy from a local Kalekol of few Cobra2/Ejder/Vuran with limited resources.

Mate, you're making up weird scenarios and then coming up with convoluted solutions.

A vehicle with 4 anti-tank missiles is not "raining missiles", it doesn't even make sense to use Umtas or Cirit against anything other than armored targets. And in a scenario against kamikaze drones of any kind, it is better to have more aa capability than to have anti armor missiles. Main gun for FPV drones and aa missiles for anything bigger.

Your previous edit was weird as well, Sungur has 8 kms of range, if a convoy is long enough to be outside of its engagement range then that convoy is already fucked. Having anti armor missiles doesn't help that at all.

 

[Terrain]

Dude, how many villages does one Kalekol looks after? 5 maybe 10. So in an uprising how many multiple, single tasked vehicle as you've said can you attach a search party.

In this multirole concept, there are 4 Cirits(enough to destroy a civilian vehicle), 4 Sungur's and 2 Anti tanks. How many vehicles do you think a village has? All we need is to suppress fire with cobras and pin point few important targets for BURC or BURC on itself can do it. Like a small scale command control.

 

[boredaf]

Dude, how many villages does one Kalekol looks after? 5 maybe 10. So in an uprising how many multiple, single tasked vehicle as you've said can you attach a search party.

In this multirole concept, there are 4 Cirits(enough to destroy a civilian vehicle), 4 Sungur's and 2 Anti tanks. How many vehicles do you think a village has? All we need is to suppress fire with cobras and pin point few important targets for BURC or BURC on itself could do it. Like a small scale command control.

Have you ever been to a village? You don't send a single vehicle to somewhere isolated and away from any possible support, it is like asking to be ambushed. And if you are sending infantry with it as you should, then trusting their safety and lives to a single jack of all trades vehicle that has to look out for both aerial and armored or other motorized threats while also trying to give fire support makes no sense. If someone told me that while I was in the military I would've been worried as fuck because that crew will have way too many balls to juggle for no reason.

 

[Terrain]

You are presenting this as if all villages are far away from Kalekol's.

I've seen 4 villages surrounding around 5km distance of one Jandarma Karakol. So to think of a scenario where some villages are signaling threats. How can you respond? And how many vehicles are there in one Kalekol? But we all think it's all outside of our reach and that we have to call air support but if we are in a 2.5 war(Two external, one internal) or 1.5, can we afford to task aircrafts or multiple vehicles? Maybe one or two multirole within a task force is enough to show presence because that's all we can do show that there is still a operating state in full scale wars.

Again we are just brain storming.

 

[Terrain]

Have you ever been to a village? You don't send a single vehicle to somewhere isolated and away from any possible support, it is like asking to be ambushed.

I think you are a bit puzzled because of those two dots that I've put on that map as it was just to show an idea. I know that we can not leave any vehicle without infantry support and the lessons from syria.

So it depends on the scale of the war, with infantry support or within a convoy entering or surrounding the village, depending on the village or just within Kalekol.

 

[Fighter_35]

HİSAR-D Block 2 based on ROEKTSAN's scaled MİDLAS model from IDEF'23 View attachment 60690

Do we have any info about its range and maximum altitude?

 

[Kaan Azman]

Do we have any info about its range and maximum altitude?

Nope but it likely gonna be like HİSAR-D Block 1 which is like HİSAR-RF