TR Air Defence Programs

[boredaf]

no way we get these in numbers tho.

Imo, we need to think about the cost/benefit carefully. The fact that they can fire on the go would make it damn good at protecting our armour brigades, if it indeed works as claimed. We have, what, 8 armour brigades? A squadron of Gürz each, or, at least for whatever number of armour we can actually use on frontlines, could improve their survivability and make it worth the cost.

 

[Sanchez]

Imo, we need to think about the cost/benefit carefully. The fact that they can fire on the go would make it damn good at protecting our armour brigades, if it indeed works as claimed. We have, what, 8 armour brigades? A squadron of Gürz each, or, at least for whatever number of armour we can actually use on frontlines, could improve their survivability and make it worth the cost.

That's why we have Korkut and Hisar-A, no? Although yes, Hisar-A is not a perfect system. No way army accepts a 8x8 vehicle for armor brigades. And we don't have a tracked vehicle that can accomodate all this gear.

 

[UkroTurk]

I have multiple issues with GÜRZ. First of all it goes against land forces doctrine:
Land forces wants to spread out expensive equipment as much as possible to different vehicles. In tbe case one fails, is hit or has any other trouble like engine trouble or is stuck in mud whatever, the rest should not be useless. That's why Korkut, Hisar etc have radar separate and multiple platforms for launch or firing, with redundancies. Furthermore, it is taxing on personnel to handle too many equipment and jobs at once, instead they want every personnel focused on one task.

GÜRZ is instead like a land ship, it's big, expensive an has everything at once. If one is hit or lost, you lose multiple capabilities, and the cost would be severe as well. You lose radars, jammer, cannon, both missile systems...

Another big flaw is the fact that missiles are connected to turret and pointed in the same direction together. If multiple threats were to engage from different directions you would be unable to fire at all of them at once despite having separate systems for all. If you knew enemy could come from a limited area it could still work but otherwise you would be easily taken out by multiple small drones. So I think they should at least separate the hisar / bozdoğan launchers to a different position. I think going from this idea, you could add sungur or aesa radar to existing korkut systems instead as an upgrade, and have hisar and jammers / laser as separate vehicle. Otherwise to use Gürz effectively, you would need 2-3 of them at once.

With expensive weapon station, you will secure expensive assets. Remember please, Russians put Pantsir on the Parliament building.


For instance 3 bridges of Istanbul strait plus the bridge of Dardanel strait are strategic and they need point defense systems.


We also need highly mobile, autonomous and high end Air defense systems so Gürz is ideal. I don't think it is much more expensive than Korkut CIWS. First Korkut is big tracked Armoured IFV. İnstead of rotating big radar antenna, there are 4 compact plates. Minus one auto cannon, plus cheap Sungurs. Just additional 4 Bozdoğan missiles will cost higher. But you don't have to always load them.

Regarding personnel , new technologies solve all humankind problems.

 

[UkroTurk]

That's why we have Korkut and Hisar-A, no? Although yes, Hisar-A is not a perfect system. No way army accepts a 8x8 vehicle for armor brigades. And we don't have a tracked vehicle that can accomodate all this gear.

I think they( gürz and korkut A)have same costs.

 

[boredaf]

I think they( gürz and korkut A)have same costs.

I would be shocked if Korkut costs anything more than half of what Gürz will cost. It is a much, much simpler platform in comparison.

 

[Kartal1]

I wonder what the unit price of Gürz would be. 20? 40? New system, 4 to 8 missiles, 4 Sungurs, 35mm turret, 4 AESA radars, multiple EOs, even a laser? Could be interesting for Saudi, no way we get these in numbers tho.

I don't think we need them in very high numbers. These will be most probably used for point defence.

I think we need these in environments where asymmetric threats are present and conventionally layered air defence system network can not be deployed due to the higher profile, which is a problem in environments where there is not high intensity of the conflict and freedom of movement is present. Also for such an environment the systems deployed must be highly mobile, not high in number due to the security risks involved, sometimes requiring urgent evacuation.

(Note KANGAL JAMMER, the GOKSUR and GOKBERK)

@Anmdt

 

[Sanchez]

I think we need these in environments where asymmetric threats are present and conventionally layered air defence system network can not be deployed

Absolutely. And number of bases where such a complete solution would be deployed is less than 10 as far as i know. Which is again, at least 200 million dollars.

I don't hate it, just that it wouldn't be as prolific as Pantsir is for Russia, for example.

 

[Anmdt]

Imo, we need to think about the cost/benefit carefully. The fact that they can fire on the go would make it damn good at protecting our armour brigades, if it indeed works as claimed. We have, what, 8 armour brigades? A squadron of Gürz each, or, at least for whatever number of armour we can actually use on frontlines, could improve their survivability and make it worth the cost.

Gürz is part of a modular battery consisting of Gökdemir, so technically it can be attached to any group, even Siper, and work in harmony. It is made to intercept micro sized to MALE drones and related micro munitions (such as MAM). What we see is its upper-end layout for customers who may not have NASAMS / Gökdemir or other related mobile (Hisar-A or Sungur) systems. If Gökdemir or Gökberk is present, it will be stripped of Hisar / Göksur missiles and HEL and connected to a Gökdemir - Gökberk via a C2 vehicle, for use of those missiles or systems. Essentially it is;​

• 360 Degree (AESA) Situational Awareness - Precision tracking/classification platform, so that the "linked" main battery won't be concerned by certain target group.​
• RF Jammer, so that no ammunition is wasted on simple (FPV etc.) threats.​
• 35mm and FCR, engaging specific threats such as Very Low Altitude Drones or CMs that the main battery may not be concerned with.​
• CLOS missile launcher, low cost to engage, main battery is not concerned by this low altitude drone or ammunition.​

TL-DR: Targeting primarily drones that any other system is not prepared for, without munitions if necessary (FPV drones etc.). Modularity is the answer here, where an actual "point defense" battery may consist of; Gökdemir, Gökberk, Gürz and RF jammer unit in combination with Korkut-AIC if present etc. For example, you may not leave a Siper battery as is, within the recent conjecture it needs to be protected against "simple" threats that it is not intended to be used against.​

 

[UkroTurk]

CLOS missile launcher, low cost to engage, main battery is not concerned by this low altitude drone or ammunition.

İ am sorry writing in Turkish.my English is not enough to explain.could someone translate it .
yeni anti dron füzesi halka şeklinde bir patlamayla vuruyor. Yüzük şeklinde bir patlama yayıyor. Tepsi gibi yayılor patlama.
We havent heard such missile from Roketsan.

Edit: coyote interceptor C-UAS

Notice the shape of explosion

How Effective Coyote Counter-UAV Drones Would Be Against russian Shahed Attacks | Defense Express

The concept of application of the American "air defense drone" may look too hybrid but not that uncommon: russians tried to make the same weapon of their Lancet in 2021

en.defence-ua.com

İt seems to me there is no tungsten shrapnels. Just explosion Ring shaped.
Great for residential areas.

 

[Anmdt]

İ am sorry writing in Turkish.my English is not enough to explain.could someone translate it .
yeni anti dron füzesi halka şeklinde bir patlamayla vuruyor. Yüzük şeklinde bir patlama yayıyor. Tepsi gibi yayılor patlama.
We havent heard such missile from Roketsan.

Edit: coyote interceptor C-UAS

Notice the shape of explosion

View attachment 65468

İt seems to me there is no tungsten shrapnels. Just explosion Ring shaped.
Great for residential areas.

Imho that is;

Continuous-rod warhead - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

which is present in Sungur, may as well be in the planned CLOS missile.

 

[Huelague]

I don't think we need them in very high numbers. These will be most probably used for point defence.

I think we need these in environments where asymmetric threats are present and conventionally layered air defence system network can not be deployed due to the higher profile, which is a problem in environments where there is not high intensity of the conflict and freedom of movement is present. Also for such an environment the systems deployed must be highly mobile, not high in number due to the security risks involved, sometimes requiring urgent evacuation.

View attachment 65462

(Note KANGAL JAMMER, the GOKSUR and GOKBERK)

@Anmdt

Am I the only one, who think the system does not look compact and less mature

 

[CAN_TR]

Am I the only one, who think the system does not look compact and less mature

Yes. I mean did you noticed the 35mm AA gun, AESA radars, Jammer, Laser and the SHORAD missiles all mounted on a 8X8 vehicle? How compact do you want it?

 

[Huelague]

mounted on a 8X8 vehicle

Yes, mounted on a vehicle. For me, it doesnt look integral to me, like a Panzir system (tracked on). You know what I'm talking about? Some mechanic miracle is missing.

 

[boredaf]

Yes, mounted on a vehicle. For me, it doesnt look integral to me, like a Panzir system (tracked on). You know what I'm talking about?

Pantsir is also on a 8x8 vehicle mate.

 

[Huelague]

Pantsir is also on a 8x8 vehicle mate.

Tracked one.

We put all the beautiful and sophisticated system and weapons on one vehicle, without integrating one compact system. Just adding to one un-mature system.

 

[boredaf]

Tracked one.

We put all the beautiful and sophisticated system and weapons on one vehicle, without integrating one compact system. Just adding to one un-mature system.

Isn't tracked version the new one? Has it been on the battlefield yet? And why does it matter so much that it is on tracks so long as it can fire on the move on 8x8 as well?

 

[UkroTurk]

Yes. I mean did you noticed the 35mm AA gun, AESA radars, Jammer, Laser and the SHORAD missiles all mounted on a 8X8 vehicle? How compact do you want it?

Gürz is enough compact to be mobile.

Being compact is not the deal, the importance of Gürz being mobile with such weapons and capabilities.

To meet capabilities of Gürz , you would need one Korkut plus one Hisar A .
so 2x radar, 2x Crew , 2x 16-17 ton tracked IFV VS highly mobile wheeled 10-12 ton Gürz.
Which solution is more expensive and more efficient?

Every weapon has own tactical advantages. I don't think Gürz will be produced in too much limited numbers. Gürz has great place in the battles.

 

[boredaf]

Gürz is enough compact to be mobile.

Being compact is not the deal, the importance of Gürz being mobile with such weapons and capabilities.

To meet capabilities of Gürz , you would need one Korkut plus one Hisar A .
so 2x radar, 2x Crew , 2x 16-17 ton tracked IFV VS highly mobile wheeled 10-12 ton Gürz.
Which solution is more expensive and more efficient?

Every weapon has own tactical advantages. I don't think Gürz will be produced in too much limited numbers. Gürz has great place in the battles.

Not just 1 IFV for Korkut, the system is has 1 command vehicle and 3 weapon platforms. So, you need 4 vehicles with crews to operate 1 Korkut system alone.

 

[Sanchez]

Per the recent 75 million contract, a single Coyote 2C C-UAS missile comes up at 125.000$. This will sell like crazy.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1756092401268019391

A smaller vehicle borne system like M-LIDS here could actually be a great addition to our smaller bases all around Syria, cheaper too. We could do it on a Vuran.

 

[Brave Janissary]

A question, gürz orgünally created fill the low range and altitude gap of long range siper batteries? Or secure the mechanized corps in the battleifeld efficently?