TR Air Defence Programs

[Lonewolf]

NATO strategy is not suit for us...Our threat perception and strategy different.

We are need more and longer range air defence system especially against air breathing targets.

Your suggested missile would very very expensive for air defence.

We can do both missile but they would be different missiles...Like SM-3 and SM-6.

Even the USA, which absolutely dominates air superiority with its unrivaled fighter planes and aircraft carriers....is need SM-6 like missile

Sm 6 is a expensive system , but highly manuverable , sm 3 is bmd basically on sea .

And American system have surprisingly much better range vs weight graph ,most compact system in world tbh .

And longer range missile have lower kill ratio , it basically is required to create area denial . In comparison mrsam are effective in engagement than others .

 

[Cabatli_TR]

NATO strategy is not suit for us...Our threat perception and strategy different.

We are need more and longer range air defence system especially against air breathing targets.

Your suggested missile would very very expensive for air defence.

We can do both missile but they would be different missiles...Like SM-3 and SM-6.

Even the USA, which absolutely dominates air superiority with its unrivaled fighter planes and aircraft carriers....is need SM-6 like missile

As the range of the missiles increases, their precision and kill ratio decreases. The shape of the world and geographical obstacles naturally reduce the maximum effective range of an air defense missile. In other words, there won't be a situation like a missile with a range of 400km being able to engage a target 400km away. Even if these long-range missiles are fired at a target from very long ranges inside a highly developed network, their chances of success are very low because the target has already taken its precautions or made an avoidance maneuver before the missile travels this long distance. For these reasons, the NATO concept focuses on the ranges where an air defense missile can be most effective. If this were not the case, countries would develop air defense systems with a range of 1400 km, not 400, and enable them to engage a target in one continent from another continent but unfortunately the laws of nature do not allow this. For this reason, I believe Turkey's air defense missile system will keep the effective range in the 200-250km (~SM6 equivalent) band with the Siper family and will make improvements to reach much higher altitudes with the BMD system I mentioned. While Aselsan is already developing the 5 axis DACS system, Roketsan is working on the 3 color seeker head technology. These can be interpreted as the footsteps of an exo-atmospheric system on their own. This target is not new for the Turkish defense industry.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

This image was shared a few times in this topic before. As everybody knows that this is a very old concept image of the system called GUMS(Geliştirilmiş Uzun Menzilli Bölge Füze Savunma Sistemi) by Aselsan. This concept of course may not make much sense at the moment because the needs of the systems have been constantly updated but this is how the system that comes to minds when GUMS is mentioned in Turkish defence industry.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Do you guys think hisar will be exportable, or just maybe to strategic important countries?

 

[Yasar_TR]

Do you guys think hisar will be exportable, or just maybe to strategic important countries?

Bangladesh already evaluating Hisar-O.

 

[Steel]

Do you guys think hisar will be exportable, or just maybe to strategic important countries?

Hisar o will most likely to be exported to Bangladesh.

 

[Steel]

Bangladesh already evaluating Hisar-O.

I believe they signed the deal. İt was announced bangladesh signed deal with roketsan after that hisar o's test was performed and serial production deal was signed. It shouldn't be coincidence. By tge way anıl şahin had shared a photo of a carrier truck (most likely for hisar) and bangladesh flag but deleted .

 

[Ecderha]

Such comparisons are usually made on the basis of ranges. When he say S-400 equivalent, i suppose the ranges are compared, not the mission profile. I believe that Turkey will follow the NATO strategy. Therefore, instead of a huge air defense system that can only hit air-breathing targets up to 400km range and limited missile defense capability, I believe a missile defence system which will have advanced ballistic missile defence capability and that can work together with Siper air defense family are developed based on Siper experience. While Siper cover the altitudes up to 30-35km, This new system will expand the protection umbrella up to 100-150km in altitude. The "Long Range High Altitude" missile which was once called GUMS and later stated to have being developed locally will be the missile emphasized as "S400 counterpart" However unlike the S400 mission profile, I think that this missile, with its dual mode seeker and DACS-controlled KV load, will perform both air defense duty at longer ranges and missile defense in an exo-atmospheric environment when necessary like THAAD. This is my prediction. We will wait and see.

Let me give you my understanding about russian missile defense "Concept".
Back then 70-80 and 90s russian had/have S200, S300 (and other lower layer missile platforms like Buk,Tor etc. ). Which WERE uptodate according to Military options of Attack via Air.

But after 1991 we saw that us used new tactic and it is like following .
From Long range 350+ km They deploying BIG air Plane (not fighter) and main purpose of plane/s are to provide Real time situation awareness and deploying NEW inovation missiles. This missiles can MIMIC fighter or use as decoy or use as ECM or use as JAMMING and making spots unvisible for enemy EW!! AND this was A THREAT for any avilable russian missile defense. I mean This Plane is out of range and it is deploying platforms which Actually have Tech and Tactical advantage which lead to russian to lose.

Therefor russian saw that tactic and others in IRAK war. So russian had to update missile defense systems with NEW tactic to counter the new us air attack tactic.
russians decide to build new system s400 which have increased range missile to reach 400km to chase or stand off those Planes. Therefore they also updated radar range also they updated satellite radars too.


So The MIAN purpose of s400 is still countering above us tactic depolying BIG FAT plane around 400km and making attacks from there. s400 main/primary objective to counter the new air attack us concept. It is not made to engage fighters or missiles at long range forthat russians have other plaftorms for that.


I think Turkiye bought that s400 because of us threat which was Real back in 2017-2018 when us were really aggresive against Turkiye

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Bangladesh already evaluating Hisar-O.

I tought turkey would be hesitant to export air defence systems. We seen how hesitant the US has been when it comes to exporting their defence systems. Hisar looks good and if its open to export to non-strategic countries then it has huge potential. Most countries around the world lack defence systems.

 

[Oublious]

I tought turkey would be hesitant to export air defence systems. We seen how hesitant the US has been when it comes to exporting their defence systems. Hisar looks good and if its open to export to non-strategic countries then it has huge potential. Most countries around the world lack defence systems.

air defence is not strategic system, you can go buy if you have the money. If you go to USA and ask patriot and you pay overpriced money, billions of dollar. You will get it, expensive to maitain and purchase.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

air defence is not strategic system, you can go buy if you have the money. If you go to USA and ask patriot and you pay overpriced money, billions of dollar. You will get it, expensive to maitain and purchase.

If thats the case then most of the countries around the world would have good air defence systems. When it comes to the patriot we all saw how they where hesitant to give them to turkey. The samme applies for saudi during the houthi attacks on the oil refineries. USA deployed patriot missiles in saudi but not as a sale, only of a period of time before they took them back.

 

[Oublious]

If thats the case then most of the countries around the world would have good air defence systems. When it comes to the patriot we all saw how they where hesitant to give them to turkey. The samme applies for saudi during the houthi attacks on the oil refineries. USA deployed patriot missiles in saudi but not as a sale, only of a period of time before they took them back.

Americans came with a stupid offer back in the days,7 billion dollar ToT and that was some stupid parts of the missile .

U.S. eyes $7.8 billion missile sale to Turkey

The Obama administration has notified Congress of a possible $7.8 billion sale of Patriot PAC-3 antimissile batteries and related gear to Turkey, the only NATO ally bordering Iran.

www.reuters.com

 

[Philip the Arab]

If you are scared of exposing your system you can export monkey models of them.

Russian S-400 is much better than the export version.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Americans came with a stupid offer back in the days,7 billion dollar ToT and that was some stupid parts of the missile .

U.S. eyes $7.8 billion missile sale to Turkey

The Obama administration has notified Congress of a possible $7.8 billion sale of Patriot PAC-3 antimissile batteries and related gear to Turkey, the only NATO ally bordering Iran.

www.reuters.com

Yh i seen that. Im not sure but i think they try their best to sell their systems to countries that get along with them, or just overprice it. If you take a look at the muslim countries, and arab world you would see that almost everyone lack good air defence systems.

 

[Oublious]

Yh i seen that. Im not sure but i think they try their best to sell their systems to countries that get along with them, or just overprice it. If you take a look at the muslim countries, and arab world you would see that almost everyone lack good air defence systems.

Exactly, overpriced and downgraded versions! Oppertunity comes with Turkey, no downgrade version and share some real ToT. Not making parts what we see with KSA.

 

[Knowledgeseeker]

Exactly, overpriced and downgraded versions! Oppertunity comes with Turkey, no downgrade version and share some real ToT. Not making parts what we see with KSA.

Turkey have a huge huge market to sell this systems. Will be interesting to see.

 

[Spook]

Exactly, overpriced and downgraded versions! Oppertunity comes with Turkey, no downgrade version and share some real ToT. Not making parts what we see with KSA.

Kind of described S400 situation too. Deal is useless without large quantity, decent tech transfer, local production etc.

Few points, Russians are actually desperate for a deal. First money, second PR from Turkey purchasing new party of S400, both for internal consumption and international. Other sales to different countries would follow. Implications is, most importantly Turkey is an regional rival and would eventually make better ones.

 

[Ka-52 Alligator]

How much is the altitude and range of Hisar-O

 

[Yasar_TR]

Russians said, if US wants to buy it they can sell S400 to them too. It is not an assault weapon. But a defensive one. Besides, Russians as mentioned before, do not sell the full fledged version to export.
Re : our purchase of Patriot : US offer was too expensive and contained no real TOT. (Mind you we don’t really know if the current S400 deal contains any real TOT either)

 

[Yasar_TR]

How much is the altitude and range of Hisar-O

Hisar is a range of AD missile systems mainly against air breathing targets. Approximate altitude and range values are:
Hidar A+ : 10km altitude 15-20km range
Hisar O+ : 15km altitude 25-40km range
Hisar U. : 20km altitude 70-100km range
There will be a “Siper” system with ballistic missile targeting capability.

Original planned air defence system missiles of Hisar system were as per below. But this has changed a bit with different seeker heads and other additions or omissions.