TR Air Defence Programs

[Anmdt]

You seem to have forgotten what the same Americans did to us when we were going to buy China's FD-2000 air defense system. If we take into account the current Sino-US relations, it is obvious that ordering from China will be no different for Turkey than ordering from the Russians.

So what you're saying doesn't make any sense. You are contradicting yourself when you say that we should buy from China while opposing the Russians.

Chinese and Russian would end the same way. There is no reasonable explanation on how less sanctions will be present with Russian systems than Chinese systems.

So in basic maths:

S400 + payment in cash, upfront before the delivery + no ToT + dozens of soldiers bombed + Turkish delegation literally mocked by being kept on hold + sanctions == Chinese SAM + payment by credit in installments over 10 year + Generous ToT + Integration of Turkish IFF and future radar systems + sanctions.

Equation is simple, both ends with the same sanctions and one of them is apparently a lot better.

 

[Bogeyman]

Chinese and Russian would end the same way. There is no reasonable explanation on how less sanctions will be present with Russian systems than Chinese systems.

So in basic maths:

S400 + payment in cash, upfront before the delivery + no ToT + dozens of soldiers bombed + Turkish delegation literally mocked by being kept on hold + sanctions == Chinese SAM + payment by credit in installments over 10 year + Generous ToT + Integration of Turkish IFF and future radar systems + sanctions.

Equation is simple, both ends with the same sanctions and one of them is apparently a lot better.

The Chinese did not want to transfer technology. You are now comparing the effectiveness of the S-400s with the S-300 replica.

I'm sure even we did a better job with the Siper project than the Chinese copy of the S-300.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461034081832120325

S400 Tech transfer

 

[Spook]

Chinese and Russian would end the same way. There is no reasonable explanation on how less sanctions will be present with Russian systems than Chinese systems.

So in basic maths:

S400 + payment in cash, upfront before the delivery + no ToT + dozens of soldiers bombed + Turkish delegation literally mocked by being kept on hold + sanctions == Chinese SAM + payment by credit in installments over 10 year + Generous ToT + Integration of Turkish IFF and future radar systems + sanctions.

Equation is simple, both ends with the same sanctions and one of them is apparently a lot better.

We have history of tech-transfers and cooperation with China. China is a major supplier of components for the national defense industry and the only alternative at many areas. As of now, we did not have any issues with China as we had with west or Russia. Russia is not even a supplier for the Army to begin with too. Key technologies we want to transfer is one of their few advantage as a adversary.

 

[Anmdt]

The Chinese did not want to transfer technology. You are now comparing the effectiveness of the S-400s with the S-300 replica.

I'm sure even we did a better job with the Siper project than the Chinese copy of the S-300.

Chinese were the top runner with their highest local contribution offer and further open intentions for a ToT on development of Turkish SAM systems. Meanwhile others didn't even show intentions for a ToT contract, except EuroSAM.

Instead, we have got S400, off the shelf, with no IPO or local production/ assembly, paid in cash.

I am not getting into discussion of which is better, but we shouldn't forget those cheap Chinese copies has given us a great boost from 90s that made Roketsan achieve a lot in rocket artilleries.

 

[Bogeyman]

Chinese were the top runner with their highest local contribution offer and further open intentions for a ToT on development of Turkish SAM systems. Meanwhile others didn't even show intentions for a ToT contract, except EuroSAM.

Instead, we have got S400, off the shelf, with no IPO or local production/ assembly, paid in cash.

I am not getting into discussion of which is better, but we shouldn't forget those cheap Chinese copies has given us a great boost from 90s that made Roketsan achieve a lot in rocket artilleries.

It has been 20 years since the B-611 ballistic missiles that China gave to Turkey. It is very natural that we have come this far in 20 years. However, it is clear that Turkey does not have 20 years. If we remember that this tender was held in 2014, I would like to remind you that we are about to add the Siper project to the inventory in 8-9 years without transferring technology from China.

 

[AWP]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1461034081832120325

S400 Tech transfer

I am 100 % sure that turkey will follow the south korean path that resulted in KM-sam system . it's not near but we will see cold lunch-long range Siper block 2 or 3

 

[Anmdt]

It has been 20 years since the B-611 ballistic missiles that China gave to Turkey. It is very natural that we have come this far in 20 years. However, it is clear that Turkey does not have 20 years. If we remember that this tender was held in 2014, I would like to remind you that we are about to add the Siper project to the inventory in 8-9 years without transferring technology from China.

And we have completed the circle, my point is exactly this since the beginning. We are getting Siper ready soon, entire Siper system will be on field by 2025, why are we even getting a second S400 that will be on field in 2023-2024? Why are we getting a ToT on something that we are already on progress of developing? We all know Russians will not offer ABMD know-how on golden platter and that is the only thing we need beyond this point.

 

[Bogeyman]

And we have completed the circle, my point is exactly this since the beginning. We are getting Siper ready soon, entire Siper system will be on field by 2025, why are we even getting a second S400 that will be on field in 2023-2024? Why are we getting a ToT on something that we are already on progress of developing? We all know Russians will not offer ABMD know-how on golden platter and that is the only thing we need beyond this point.

Soldiers who are directly familiar with the issue of technology transfer in the S-400s respond with a smile to what you say.

I think this is enough for you.

 

[Anmdt]

Soldiers who are directly familiar with the issue of technology transfer in the S-400s respond with a smile to what you say.

I think this is enough for you.

The ToT issue was also present with the first batch, lets recall how Russians have denied top Turkish officials by saying there is no bits of ToT on the project.

'Türkiye ile S-400 anlaşmasında teknoloji transferi kısmen bile yok'

Türkiye'nin S-400 hava savunma sistemlerini satın aldığı Rusya ile yaptığı anlaşmanın "teknoloji transferi içermediği" öne sürüldü.

tr.euronews.com

Putin; the deal is entirely financial one, not a technological deal.

Other government officials from Russia; there is no bits of ToT in this deal.

And back then Mr. Demir clearly told;

Başkan DEMİR’den S-400 teknoloji transferi açıklaması | SavunmaSanayiST

Cumhurbaşkanlığı Savunma Sanayii Başkanı Prof. Dr. İsmail DEMİR, AA Finans Masası’na konuk oldu. DEMİR, S-400 ve teknoloji transferiyle ilgili soruyu yanıtladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

There is little to more ToT gain from the project, depending on contract and negotiation.

The truth; there was even no offset.

Now we are on the second round, where magically parties are agreed to not share the details of the ToT and Russians have remained silent so far on the matter. The truth will be revealed while systems are being delivered.


If there is a need for ToT, a contract can be signed on parts needed to achieve a whole system just like Koreans did. They did not purchase S400 but gained the necessary tech by paying the cost.

A note: soldiers are crying, because whenever erdogan or his ekuris going somewhere to make some deal, without asking or appointing them or whether it fits to their ultimate plan. And carrying out negotiations purely by his team and some middlemen. Ask to some soldiers if you know some they will exactly tell you this

 

[Zafer]

The ToT issue was also present with the first batch, lets recall how Russians have denied top Turkish officials by saying there is no bits of ToT on the project.

'Türkiye ile S-400 anlaşmasında teknoloji transferi kısmen bile yok'

Türkiye'nin S-400 hava savunma sistemlerini satın aldığı Rusya ile yaptığı anlaşmanın "teknoloji transferi içermediği" öne sürüldü.

tr.euronews.com

Putin; the deal is entirely financial one, not a technological deal.

Other government officials from Russia; there is no bits of ToT in this deal.

And back then Mr. Demir clearly told;

Başkan DEMİR’den S-400 teknoloji transferi açıklaması | SavunmaSanayiST

Cumhurbaşkanlığı Savunma Sanayii Başkanı Prof. Dr. İsmail DEMİR, AA Finans Masası’na konuk oldu. DEMİR, S-400 ve teknoloji transferiyle ilgili soruyu yanıtladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

There is little to more ToT gain from the project, depending on contract and negotiation.

The truth; there was even no offset.

Now we are on the second round, where magically parties are agreed to not share the details of the ToT and Russians have remained silent so far on the matter. The truth will be revealed while systems are being delivered.


If there is a need for ToT, a contract can be signed on parts needed to achieve a whole system just like Koreans did. They did not purchase S400 but gained the necessary tech by paying the cost.

A note: soldiers are crying, because whenever erdogan or his ekuris going somewhere to make some deal, without asking or appointing them or whether it fits to their ultimate plan. And carrying out negotiations purely by his team and some middlemen. Ask to some soldiers if you know some they will exactly tell you this

Military lags behind politics, they make plans without seeing the whole picture and try to catch up afterwards.

 

[Saithan]

Military lags behind politics, they make plans without seeing the whole picture and try to catch up afterwards.

Militarymen are specialists in their fields and Generals even more so, spent perhaps 40+ years in the field mastering and gaining insight analyzing and strategizing.

Cihat Yayci, Gem Gürdeniz and many others keep warning of consequences of not stepping gently around things. Having necessary sensitivity. Even old diplomats warn. Yet AKP and RTE insist on moving around like an elephant in a glass store.

How the hell can you compare TAF with politicians who're best at nepotism and beeing leeches. Hulusi Akar is the only one doing anything remotely looking like FM job even though he's MoD.

It's the same with Police officers. Until our prof. army was founded we had undergeared Mehmetcik serving in outposts and such in the 90's out in remote places getting surrounded and attacked.

Tansu introduced Celik Kuvvet because (as I recall) it consisted of trained PÖH and did cross border operations to get them terrorists. Law enforcement officers who signed up to serve their country and not conscripts.

And let me add that retired officers contribute greatly in the defence sectore while in service and after retiring, stop insulting them!

So I think you're misguided, AKP and RTE makes plans without seeing the whole picture. But perhaps he has realized it, but all that corruption he started needs to end and he can't do that himself.

 

[Huelague]

Even we got ToT, what does it mean exactly? Seeker head? The wheels of the truck?...

 

[Zafer]

Militarymen are specialists in their fields and Generals even more so, spent perhaps 40+ years in the field mastering and gaining insight analyzing and strategizing.

Cihat Yayci, Gem Gürdeniz and many others keep warning of consequences of not stepping gently around things. Having necessary sensitivity. Even old diplomats warn. Yet AKP and RTE insist on moving around like an elephant in a glass store.

How the hell can you compare TAF with politicians who're best at nepotism and beeing leeches. Hulusi Akar is the only one doing anything remotely looking like FM job even though he's MoD.

It's the same with Police officers. Until our prof. army was founded we had undergeared Mehmetcik serving in outposts and such in the 90's out in remote places getting surrounded and attacked.

Tansu introduced Celik Kuvvet because (as I recall) it consisted of trained PÖH and did cross border operations to get them terrorists. Law enforcement officers who signed up to serve their country and not conscripts.

And let me add that retired officers contribute greatly in the defence sectore while in service and after retiring, stop insulting them!

So I think you're misguided, AKP and RTE makes plans without seeing the whole picture. But perhaps he has realized it, but all that corruption he started needs to end and he can't do that himself.

Corruption? Where is it? Slandering as always.

Backwards officers of the times when Turkey was a prisoner in NATO, those who made Turkey a slave of NATO, allowing FETÖ to take root and are responsible for all the past failings of the Turkish Military. What do they know? They know how to be slaves. They don't see into the future, they are bound by the space they were allowed to move around in, already surrendered to the enemy.

Leadership on the other hand breaks the status quo and creates own paradigm; disrupting and reshaping everything towards a more powerful nation, strong and resilient; shaking off the shackles, killing diseases and building a healthy and prospering nation. One that is proud, more so than their ancestors.

 

[Bogeyman]

The ToT issue was also present with the first batch, lets recall how Russians have denied top Turkish officials by saying there is no bits of ToT on the project.

'Türkiye ile S-400 anlaşmasında teknoloji transferi kısmen bile yok'

Türkiye'nin S-400 hava savunma sistemlerini satın aldığı Rusya ile yaptığı anlaşmanın "teknoloji transferi içermediği" öne sürüldü.

tr.euronews.com

Putin; the deal is entirely financial one, not a technological deal.

Other government officials from Russia; there is no bits of ToT in this deal.

And back then Mr. Demir clearly told;

Başkan DEMİR’den S-400 teknoloji transferi açıklaması | SavunmaSanayiST

Cumhurbaşkanlığı Savunma Sanayii Başkanı Prof. Dr. İsmail DEMİR, AA Finans Masası’na konuk oldu. DEMİR, S-400 ve teknoloji transferiyle ilgili soruyu yanıtladı.

www.savunmasanayist.com

There is little to more ToT gain from the project, depending on contract and negotiation.

The truth; there was even no offset.

Now we are on the second round, where magically parties are agreed to not share the details of the ToT and Russians have remained silent so far on the matter. The truth will be revealed while systems are being delivered.


If there is a need for ToT, a contract can be signed on parts needed to achieve a whole system just like Koreans did. They did not purchase S400 but gained the necessary tech by paying the cost.

A note: soldiers are crying, because whenever erdogan or his ekuris going somewhere to make some deal, without asking or appointing them or whether it fits to their ultimate plan. And carrying out negotiations purely by his team and some middlemen. Ask to some soldiers if you know some they will exactly tell you this

The guest of the live broadcast of journalist Ahmet Melik Türkeş on CNN Türk, T.C. Chairman of the Presidency of Defense Industries Prof. Dr. İsmail Demir, “Will the second party S-400 system be purchased?” On the question, “All negotiations and agreements with Russia were made through 2 systems. Co-production and technology were discussed. A certain distance has been taken. Russia's statement is an indication that the work has come to an end." made a statement.

İkinci sistem S-400'ün ortak üretimi, teknoloji konularında ilerleme var

SSB Başkanı Prof. Dr. İsmail Demir, İkinci sistem S-400 Hava Savunma Füze Sistemi (HSFS) hakkında önemli açıklamalarda bulundu

www.defenceturk.net

He who lied yesterday says that we are transferring technology today. State policy demands it, and so they say. This does not concern me. I'm looking at what the man who worked at the head of the S-400s said.

 

[Tornadoss]

Corruption? Where is it? Slandering as always.

Backwards officers of the times when Turkey was a prisoner in NATO, those who made Turkey a slave of NATO, allowing FETÖ to take root and are responsible for all the past failings of the Turkish Military. What do they know? They know how to be slaves. They don't see into the future, they are bound by the space they were allowed to move around in, already surrendered to the enemy.

Leadership on the other hand breaks the status quo and creates own paradigm; disrupting and reshaping everything towards a more powerful nation, strong and resilient; shaking off the shackles, killing diseases and building a healthy and prospering nation. One that is proud, more so than their ancestors.

Last time I checked it was AKP that was cooperating with feto to prison patriot TSK officers. In 2004, there was MGK warning about feto which is not taking seriously by akp. akp gave the key positions to feto. Please don't talk about "seeing the future".

Leadership is only creating problem, without any planned foreign policy daily basis with 180 degree policies next day. Please cut the crap.

Btw, It was DP and Menderes who sent soldiers to Korea and making Turkey a NATO member. Though I think it was a necessary move against the Soviets.

 

[Test7]

Dear Members;

Please stay on the topic

 

[Bogeyman]

The guest of the live broadcast of journalist Ahmet Melik Türkeş on CNN Türk, T.C. Chairman of the Presidency of Defense Industries Prof. Dr. İsmail Demir, “Will the second party S-400 system be purchased?” On the question, “All negotiations and agreements with Russia were made through 2 systems. Co-production and technology were discussed. A certain distance has been taken. Russia's statement is an indication that the work has come to an end." made a statement.

İkinci sistem S-400'ün ortak üretimi, teknoloji konularında ilerleme var

SSB Başkanı Prof. Dr. İsmail Demir, İkinci sistem S-400 Hava Savunma Füze Sistemi (HSFS) hakkında önemli açıklamalarda bulundu

www.defenceturk.net

He who lied yesterday says that we are transferring technology today. State policy demands it, and so they say. This does not concern me. I'm looking at what the man who worked at the head of the S-400s said.

Meanwhile, the S-400s were not left to rot in storage. Just today, a friend of mine, an electronic warfare officer in the TAF, said that they were with the S-400s 15 days ago. (they probably had a training drill)

 

[Spook]

Meanwhile, the S-400s were not left to rot in storage. Just today, a friend of mine, an electronic warfare officer in the TAF, said that they were with the S-400s 15 days ago. (they probably had a training drill)

I am sorry but if you have a friend that gives information like that casually and an electronic warfare officer, the person should be discharged. Additionally giving such information to prove a point is not acceptable even if it is harmless in order to prevent encouraging similar future behavior. Every information provided in the forum should be open source and even some of the open sources should be limited. If you find a valuable insight, don't share it.

 

[Cenkcnk]

Even we got ToT, what does it mean exactly? Seeker head? The wheels of the truck?...

Gear sticks maybe