TR Air Defence Programs

[Zafer]

We wanted air defenses to defend ourselves against NATO members and we bought the best system to do it, it was a brilliant success. We wanted out of the F35 trap and we managed to get out, another brilliant success. No matter what you want there are two sides to a deal and the other side had their hidden agenda which did not suit our interests.

 

[Heartbang]

We wanted air defenses to defend ourselves against NATO members and we bought the best system to do it, it was a brilliant success.

this right here. we all know those S400s wont be deployed to the "southern front."

 

[GoatsMilk]

"We didnt get the F35 because of the S400, but even then they would not give it to us because of (insert some random mumbo-jumbo)" is such a weak argument. No substance at all imo. Its a deeply apologetic argument in defense of the (bad) decision makers with no meat on the bone.

It's entirely speculation, there was no indication of an embargo - Turkish pilots were actually in training.

Its always been my belief that s400 was brought because of the quagmire in Syria. When AK party joined the american/isreali war against Assad they never ever suspected that the NATO forces would side line Turkey over it and instead build up the PKK project.

Even today the western media refers to the arabs/kurds who fled the assad regime and the ypg as hired gunmen, meaning terrorists. They used Turkey to get the syrian war cooking and then took a big shit all over Turkey and demonised Turkey as the bad guy, even assad and iran when talking about Turkey were shown as allies with the west in the fight against isis, while Turkey was portrayed as the patron of Isis. What a disaster erdogan created for Turkey.

The reasoning i think ak party used, was that if we buy the s400 from Russia the Russians would give Turkey concessions in Syria, meanwhile the Americans seeing the Turks were serious would back down from their support of the ypg in fear of Turkey siding even more with Russia. Because after all would you really want trade a nation like Turkey for bunch of marxist terrorists?

However;

It was another typically short sighted AK party move. What happened was this, by buying the s400 it caused the west to double down against Turkey and support Turkeys rivals harder, the Russians seeing that Turkey was becoming Isolated from her western allies felt so confident that they could even openly bomb Turkish troops. The s400 deal was a lose lose situation. We lost f35 and got a terrible air defence system instead. We lost leverage in the western camp and gave Russia more leverage against Turkey.

Despite all this political failure, what has kept Turkey alive and what has elevated Turkey has been her domestic military developments and the performance of her army.

After the Russians killed the Turkish troops the idlib retaliation showed the world a new devastating style of warfare. It elevated the Turkish image in the space of a couple of days what 20 years of AK party rule couldn't do.

Then we jumped to Libya, by all accounts that should have been game over for the Libyan government. Haftar had russian wagnar terrorists about 10,000 fighting for him, French support and Gulf financing, haftars armies were in the streets of tripoli. Yet the moment Turkey got involved with a token force of drones, they smashed that plan and saved the government.

Then the Armenians were talking about a greater Armenia and it forced Turkey to give up on finding a peaceful solution to the occupied Azeri lands and instead throw her full support behind Azerbaijan, we all know what happened Armenia was crushed and for the first time the Russian style of mainting frozen conflicts was broken.

While all this was happening Turkey was selling drones to Ukraine and despite threats from the USA, EU and Russia not to arm Ukraine, Turkey did and as we all know the Russian invasion has been a complete disaster for Putin. It may have even been the Ukrainian drone strikes on donbas separatists/terrorists that made Russia panic and invade sooner rather then later fearing that if Ukraine becomes too armed it would be too late.

So long story short politically we have been a complete failure, yet everywhere we have been able to leverage the Turkish military we have made gains. the Turkish aim should be to find opportunities to leverage the Turkish military, discussions for us are no good, nothing can be won from it. But anywhere Turkey can employ her military to make gains, she has to. Just like in Ethiopia Turkish drone support saved that government and that state will now look out for Turkish interests.

And i guess in a long winded way Turkish military developments completely hinge on geopolitical issues, Turkey has to find a way to decouple the two issues. Turkey cannot keep worrying that if she fights to protect herself that it means the tools she needs to buy are now banned to her. And she cannot be a situation where we can buy everything we need to protect ourselves but we are not able to fight.

We need balanced decision making that understands the long term consequences of any decisions we make. S400 was brought and it was a complete failure. the Turkish position means that we have no real win win situations, every decision has a cost but that cost has to be calculated in advance and the state must know whether it can be endured and should it be endured is the outcome worth it.

Ultimately its a time game for Turkey until she reaches a position where her domestic developments shield her from 3rd party sanctions and embargoes.

 

[Fighter_35]

We wanted air defenses to defend ourselves against NATO members and we bought the best system to do it, it was a brilliant success. We wanted out of the F35 trap and we managed to get out, another brilliant success. No matter what you want there are two sides to a deal and the other side had their hidden agenda which did not suit our interests.

Are you for real? We wanted to get rid of f-35?? This is your argument to defend akp??
No need to say anything to this much bullshit!

 

[GoatsMilk]

this right here. we all know those S400s wont be deployed to the "southern front."

For starters Russian air defences in multiple theatres have proven to be shite. No other nation proved this more then Turkey.

However even if the system was good, do we really trust Russia enough to gamble fighting a war using their systems? Do we trust in a potential war with say greece that the S400 will be reliable.

Just like Russia failing in Ukraine is good for Turkey, Turkey losing or failing a war against any of our neighbours is good for Russia. They don't want to see us win and expand, we control access into and out of the black sea, the weak underbelly of the entire Russian federation. Our people are spread across the entire Eurasian landmass, a growing Turkey is bad news for them.

My feeling is that if a serious war came, those s400 missiles will fail to shoot even one thing down. Then russians will laugh at us and claim its not that the s400 is shite, its that Russians only sell 3rd nations the unreliable monkey version.

And ill be honest, these days only monkeys would buy russian military hardware.

 

[Huelague]

Ok so, whats the excuse for F-16V then?

i am 99% they wouldnt give F-35s to us even if we didnt buy S-400, S-400 made the process a bit easier for them

Of course, they would give us F-35, but only use for US interests. They would not give permission to strike Greece.

 

[Radonsider]

Of course, they would give us F-35, but only use for US interests. They would not give permission to strike Greece.

Nor Northern Syria and list goes on like that

 

[GoatsMilk]

Nor Northern Syria and list goes on like that

We got to be more intelligent then this. If i were charge of Turkey and i wanted to create a safe zone in Syria for the refugees, the simple thing to do would have been to direct the syrian refugees towards europe from day 1.

You then say to Europe, support me make a safe zone and the refugees will stop, dont support me enjoy 10 million refugees and many more.

Europeans do nothing good for Turkey unless their own welfare is on the line. By providing for the refugees we created a position where the EU could shit on us and insult us.

AK party created a situation where we provide for the largest number of refugees on earth, yet the EU constantly points fingers at us accusing us of genocide of the Kurdish people.

 

[Ryder]

So many naive arguments. Even without Erdogans bs antics the Americans would have found something to take the F35s away.

F35 is a strategic weapon and the Americans use it against countries unless they dont tow to their interests. F35 has lots of bargaining power.

Dont forget how the Americans are trying to find a bs reason to sanction us because of Turkish drones.

Look at the bs obstacles they are placing just for the F16V's.

 

[Ryder]

Honestly I think the deal is simple give us the F35 and will send the S400 to the USA for evaulation.

It seems both sides are too stubborn to even solve this problem due to outside forces like lobbies and the pro nato and pro russian camps.

 

[Ecderha]

Honestly I think the deal is simple give us the F35 and will send the S400 to the USA for evaulation.

It seems both sides are too stubborn to even solve this problem due to outside forces like lobbies and the pro nato and pro russian camps.

What you talking about?

F35 was already PAID from Turkiye...................usa is robber they steal the money and keep the F35.
Now you suggesting that Turkiye give more assets like S400 !?!

I Just suggest that you check 10 -15 years back of History ..............................then Think I mean Think logically then again Think
then check what you wrote and ask you self what you are NAIVE

 

[TR_123456]

The S-400 procurement was the right decision made at the right time.
It was a political decision which had to be made to show our so called ally(USA) that we dont accept its two faced attitude against our country.
To show that the times of ''Yes and Amen" are over.
Supporting terrorists(YPG/PKK) against us,siding with Russia when we downed their warplane,hidden sanctions,working against us in any way possible.
It doesnt matter if the S-400 is good or not,what is important is that we have our indigenous programs proceeding in a way they could never have imagened.
No matter what,thanks to the S-400 deal we are in a better place.
Syria,Libya,Karabag,Ukraine put us on the map,every so called Think Tank is talking about our country.
Watch what will come out of the talks today in Ukraine.
So,politics aside,we had to go for the S-400.

 

[Huelague]

Honestly I think the deal is simple give us the F35 and will send the S400 to the USA for evaulation.

It seems both sides are too stubborn to even solve this problem due to outside forces like lobbies and the pro nato and pro russian camps.

We could send it to north Cyprus or Azerbaijan.

 

[Huelague]

The S-400 procurement was the right decision made at the right time.
It was a political decision which had to be made to show our so called ally(USA) that we dont accept its two faced attitude against our country.
To show that the times of ''Yes and Amen" are over.
Supporting terrorists(YPG/PKK) against us,siding with Russia when we downed their warplane,hidden sanctions,working against us in any way possible.
It doesnt matter if the S-400 is good or not,what is important is that we have our indigenous programs proceeding in a way they could never have imagened.
No matter what,thanks to the S-400 deal we are in a better place.
Syria,Libya,Karabag,Ukraine put us on the map,every so called Think Tank is talking about our country.
Watch what will come out of the talks today in Ukraine.
So,politics aside,we had to go for the S-400.

Exactly! The decision was a message.

 

[GoatsMilk]

The S-400 procurement was the right decision made at the right time.
It was a political decision which had to be made to show our so called ally(USA) that we dont accept its two faced attitude against our country.
To show that the times of ''Yes and Amen" are over.
Supporting terrorists(YPG/PKK) against us,siding with Russia when we downed their warplane,hidden sanctions,working against us in any way possible.
It doesnt matter if the S-400 is good or not,what is important is that we have our indigenous programs proceeding in a way they could never have imagened.
No matter what,thanks to the S-400 deal we are in a better place.
Syria,Libya,Karabag,Ukraine put us on the map,every so called Think Tank is talking about our country.
Watch what will come out of the talks today in Ukraine.
So,politics aside,we had to go for the S-400.

We shouldn't be going back for F16's because you are basically saying to the americans you can screw me, but in the end ill still come back to beg you. Kicked me off F35 and portrayed me as the worthless ally to the world, now Turkey is going back to beg for the older 4th gen F16's from the americans.

Had we brought the s400 and said to the americans either you sell me the F35 i paid for, or i dont ever buy your fighter jets again. Then you would have a point, but the reality is that the americans have too much leverage over Turkey. Turkey is not in a position to walk away from American weapons. These issues should have been taken into account by AK party when they brought the S400. The fact they are going back for F16's tells me they didnt think about these things.

Now the americans have kicked us of the F35 and we are going back for F16's they know they can keep screwing us because they know we are going to keep going back. The americans needed to feel that they would lose Turkey, to create doubt in their minds about screwing Turkey.

However if American loses Turkey they still remain a global power, if Turkey completely loses America we know have to face the full might of the USA and the east will screw us harder knowing we are isolated.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Remember this geopolitical game is highly nuanced, statesman who can see this nuance, who can see things and see them across a long time frame succeed. Those who only see the now without thinking of the chain reaction of unintended consequences fail in the long term.

 

[TR_123456]

We shouldn't be going back for F16's because you are basically saying to the americans you can screw me, but in the end ill still come back to beg you. Kicked me off F35 and portrayed me as the worthless ally to the world, now Turkey is going back to beg for the older 4th gen F16's from the americans.

Had we brought the s400 and said to the americans either you sell me the F35 i paid for, or i dont ever buy your fighter jets again. Then you would have a point, but the reality is that the americans have too much leverage over Turkey. Turkey is not in a position to walk away from American weapons. These issues should have been taken into account by AK party when they brought the S400. The fact they are going back for F16's tells me they didnt think about these things.

Who says this was not an action to prove a point?
I mean come on,you know we wouldnt get any of it,not the block 70 or the kits normally but thanks to Ukraine they have to make a decision,either or.
If they refuse they are fucked,both in NATO(veto) and ME(Black Sea,Russia,Syria,Iraq,Iran etc).
I still believe we wont get anything and i hope we wont.
Trust me,im a pessimist but even i think besides engines we dont need any weapons from the US.
You say they didnt think but they did,they were cornered,the US was blackmailing and threatening them so they countered with ''enough is enough''.

 

[TR_123456]

Remember this geopolitical game is highly nuanced, statesman who can see this nuance, who can see things and see them across a long time frame succeed. Those who only see the now without thinking of the chain reaction of unintended consequences fail in the long term.

Yeah,thats the problem,its to late for that.
After 20 years you cant use that excuse.
I can name many mistakes but whats the use?
Better to think here and now.

 

[GoatsMilk]

wouldnt get any of it,not the block 70 or the kits normally but thanks to Ukraine they have to make a decision,either or.
If they refuse they are fucked,b

If i look at the situation emotionally my reaction is going to be f these people arming terrorists against us, slandering us internationally, the two faced approach from the eu, the prejudice, the discrimination and outright racism we receive from the USA/EU.

But a state cannot be run like this, its about winning its about playing the game. We are Galatasaray with 2 men sent off due to red cards, while we are playing Real Madrid. The Turkish attitude wants to go on the attack, but in this situation, you got to close ranks, pull the entire team into defence and ride the time out.

So that when the second leg comes and you can field 11 men the game is not so far out of contention that everything is already lost.

 

[TR_123456]

If i look at the situation emotionally my reaction is going to be f these people arming terrorists against us, slandering us internationally, the two faced approach from the eu, the prejudice, the discrimination and outright racism we receive from the USA/EU.

But a state cannot be run like this, its about winning its about playing the game. We are Galatasaray with 2 men sent off due to red cards, while we are playing Real Madrid. The Turkish attitude wants to go on the attack, but in this situation, you got to close ranks, pull the entire team into defence and ride the time out.

So that when the second leg comes and you can field 11 men the game is not so far out of contention that everything is already lost.

I understand but thats the past,we lost both matches.
Forget the past,lets work with what we got now and hope that we have learned from past mistake.