TR Air Defence Programs

[Afif]

Finally we get to see the real SIPER! Congratulations to Tubitak Sage, Roketsan and Aselsan. Keep going, don't stop.

 

[Afif]

I don't know about you guys but I am gonna have to watch it over and over again just to appreciate the majesty.

 

[UkroTurk]

I wonder if radar seeker is AESA since Meteksan mastered in it.

 

[Yasar_TR]

@uçuyorum ,
Please don’t be misguided by trick explanations and descriptions regarding rocket stages.
If you do not take in to account the booster section, Siper Block 1 also has a single stage rocket engine.
Dual pulse (using the fuel tank in two stages) or dual thrust (using two different burn-speed fuels) rocket engines are all single stage missile engines..
Siper Block 2 should still have a dual thrust or dual pulse engine. US uses dual thrust on SM 2 block 4 and ESSM , to give boost-and-sustain characteristics to the flight of the missile. You need a dual action engine to achieve good thrust to catch incoming threats, especially at or just before terminal stage, and eliminate them. For their latest AIM260-JATM air to air missile, the Americans are expected to be using a dual pulse engine; where as all their previous Aim series have used a dual thrust engine.

I like those fins at the bottom open up as it leaves the canister. Something says it could be quad packable??

 

[Oublious]

So radar screen should have shown 120km radius as instrumented range but it didn't.

Radarsystems works with differenct mods, when needed you can use it full power. So what they have used nobody can tell you.




I hope they put SIPER missile system this year operational.

 

[Oublious]

I hope they replace old PESA Kalkan I/II with a new gen AESA like Sentinel A4.

Kalkan 2 is AESA radar.

 

[UkroTurk]

Something says it could be quad packable??

Quadpacking why not? If Siper-D could be quadpacked, would there be a need of Hisar-D?

 

[Oublious]

Looks like the footage is old, we are in summer and it is a hot year so why is the grass green?

 

[uçuyorum]

Quadpacking why not? If Siper-D could be quadpacked, would there be a need of Hisar-D?

Remember the MIDLAS model from idef 23, quadpacked Hisar D Block 2 looked very tight fit already, and Siper Block 1 was there as well, Siper Block 2 might just be too big.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

In the Turkish layered air defense missile system concept, the ranges between layers are developed according to the tactics and strategy of Army and products are developed accordingly. Each layer in itself introduce a very difficult technological capabilities in seeker sensors, radar types, aerial coverage and each layer is connected by highly advanced command control software that are supported by network-centered decision support algorithms and calculate the most ideal attack option at the most appropriate time in accordance to emerged scenarios.

Therefore, there will be a gap of way more than 60 km between Hisar-O+Rf and Siper Ürün-1. Once such an intermediate need/product was also mentioned by Mr. Okumuş and he has told that a cost effective missile between Hisar and Siper could fill this gap. I think missile that will fill this gap will be Hisar-D Blk2 derivative from Roketsan.

 

[Bürküt]

@uçuyorum ,
Please don’t be misguided by trick explanations and descriptions regarding rocket stages.
If you do not take in to account the booster section, Siper Block 1 also has a single stage rocket engine.
Dual pulse (using the fuel tank in two stages) or dual thrust (using two different burn-speed fuels) rocket engines are all single stage missile engines..
Siper Block 2 should still have a dual thrust or dual pulse engine. US uses dual thrust on SM 2 block 4 and ESSM , to give boost-and-sustain characteristics to the flight of the missile. You need a dual action engine to achieve good thrust to catch incoming threats, especially at or just before terminal stage, and eliminate them. For their latest AIM260-JATM air to air missile, the Americans are expected to be using a dual pulse engine; where as all their previous Aim series have used a dual thrust engine.

I like those fins at the bottom open up as it leaves the canister. Something says it could be quad packable??

I was just going to ask why Siper ürün 2 is not dual pulse.

 

[Afif]

So, previously I tend to think interceptors without hit to kill kinetic warheads can only shoot down TBMs. (range up to 300km, e.g. ATACMS, KHAN)

However, in light of recent development in Ukraine conflict where MIM-104 PAC-2 GEM interceptor surprisingly shot down Kinzal, ( that's right, it wasn't PAC-3) I think we can conclude that, SIPER block ii with a new large and powerful rocket motor, highly accurate new seeker and big warhead (assuming from the diameter of the missiles) can reliably shoot down SRBM. (with a range up to 1000km)


In a nutshell, SIPER block ii can act as a capable ABM system at altitude.

 

[UkroTurk]

@uçuyorum ,
Please don’t be misguided by trick explanations and descriptions regarding rocket stages.
If you do not take in to account the booster section, Siper Block 1 also has a single stage rocket engine.
Dual pulse (using the fuel tank in two stages) or dual thrust (using two different burn-speed fuels) rocket engines are all single stage missile engines..
Siper Block 2 should still have a dual thrust or dual pulse engine. US uses dual thrust on SM 2 block 4 and ESSM , to give boost-and-sustain characteristics to the flight of the missile. You need a dual action engine to achieve good thrust to catch incoming threats, especially at or just before terminal stage, and eliminate them. For their latest AIM260-JATM air to air missile, the Americans are expected to be using a dual pulse engine; where as all their previous Aim series have used a dual thrust engine.

I like those fins at the bottom open up as it leaves the canister. Something says it could be quad packable??

Siper Ürün 2 could be called as Siper Block 2?
And what do you think: this Siper Ürün 2 has dual thrust / dualpulse or single one?

Last but not least: Hisar-D could have dual thrust / dual pulse in order to fullfill the gap between Siper and Hisar?

( i don't know what kind of thrust/pulse Hisar 0 has)

 

[Bürküt]

In the Turkish layered air defense missile system concept, the ranges between layers are developed according to the tactics and strategy of Army and products are developed accordingly. Each layer in itself introduce a very difficult technological capabilities in seeker sensors, radar types, aerial coverage and each layer is connected by highly advanced command control software that are supported by network-centered decision support algorithms and calculate the most ideal attack option at the most appropriate time in accordance to emerged scenarios.

Therefore, there will be a gap of way more than 60 km between Hisar-O+Rf and Siper Ürün-1. Once such an intermediate need/product was also mentioned by Mr. Okumuş and he has told that a cost effective missile between Hisar and Siper could fill this gap. I think missile that will fill this gap will be Hisar-D Blk2 derivative from Roketsan.

I have question marks in my head about this.Because as far as I know, Hisar is a land forces project.Hisar ADS's main purpose is to protect mechanized troops (The aim was to shoot down helicopters and fighter jets in a possible CAS operations that could be done to our army in time).That's why the missiles used by the system were made with an IIR seeker. In order to be able to shoot at targets without using radar when necessary.Later, an RF head was attached to the Hisar's missile and then a booster was attached under it. And we called it Siper Block 1.

Can I make one of these judgement from what you said?

1) The Air Force will supply a certain number of Hisar O+ systems and these batteries will use Hisar RF missiles, not Hisar-O IIR.

2) Air force will not supply Hisar-O+ system . Instead, it will use the Hisar RF missile alongside Siper block 1-2 missiles in Siper batteries.


My personal guess was that the air forces use Gökdemir ADS for the middle layer without going for any of these.It seems more logical to me to use the Gökdoğan missiles that will already be in the air forces inventory.In order to fill the gap between Siper and Gökdoğan YH, a booster can be attached to Gökdoğan and a new version can be derived (Like Amraam ER).

 

[UkroTurk]

Look here is the pac-3 MSE MK-41 integration. I think Siper Block 2 has similar dimensions and fuselage.
So i have doubts about dual packing.

İt seems quadpacking impossible.

Do you think Siper Block 2 slimmer than PAC-3 MSE ?however CRİ slimmer than MSE.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I have question marks in my head about this.Because as far as I know, Hisar is a land forces project.Hisar ADS's main purpose is to protect mechanized troops (The aim was to shoot down helicopters and fighter jets in a possible CAS operations that could be done to our army in time).That's why the missiles used by the system were made with an IIR seeker. In order to be able to shoot at targets without using radar when necessary.Later, an RF head was attached to the Hisar's missile and then a booster was attached under it. And we called it Siper Block 1.

Can I make one of these suggestions from what you said?

1) The Air Force will supply a certain number of Hisar O+ systems and these batteries will use Hisar RF missiles, not Hisar-O IIR.

2) Air force will not supply Hisar-O+ system . Instead, it will use the Hisar RF missile alongside Siper block 1-2 missiles in Siper batteries.


My personal guess was that the air forces use Gökdemir ADS for the middle layer without going for any of these.It seems more logical to me to use the Gökdoğan missiles that will already be in the air forces inventory.In order to fill the gap between Siper and Gökdoğan YH, a booster can be attached to Gökdoğan and a new version can be derived (Like Amraam ER).

Bro, Land Forces has ordered 4+ battery Hisar-O+ systems initially but Air Force has outdated Nike Hercules and I-Hawk systems in its inventory. So instead of IIR guidance, RF guided missiles will be the air force's prefered choice due to the defined scope of duty. The D1/D2 variants have been the choice of the Navy. According to the last information Mr. Sunnetçi received personally at Idef21, the Air Force was conducting negotiations for 10+ batteries of Hisar-O+ RF and probably together with qualification trials of Hisar-O+ Rf that footage revealed yesterday, Air Force will add Hisar-O+ RF missiles to the inventory to replace outdated IHawks. Likewise, the Siper B1 and B2 systems will replace Nike Hercules missiles and boost the capabilities to another level. The Gökdemir system will be defined for certain ceitical tasks such as base/port protection or populated area protect... and will enter the inventory of Army. In fact, Gökdemir is an integrated system using SAGE's state of art A2A missiles instead of Roketsan's but it uses the same radars, capable of being fired by Hisar-O+ batteries FCS. The important thing will be the efficiency of link, radar and command and control system which will ensure the interoperability of all these systems.

 

[Radko]

So, previously I tend to think interceptors without hit to kill kinetic warheads can only shoot down TBMs. (range up to 300km, e.g. ATACMS, KHAN)

However, in light of recent development in Ukraine conflict where MIM-104 PAC-2 GEM interceptor surprisingly shot down Kinzal, ( that's right, it wasn't PAC-3) I think we can conclude that, SIPER block ii with a new large and powerful rocket motor, highly accurate new seeker and big warhead (assuming from the diameter of the missiles) can reliably shoot down SRBM. (with a range up to 1000km)


In a nutshell, SIPER block ii can act as a capable ABM system at altitude.

1) we don't really a confirmation of Kinzal shoot down

2) It was a PAC-3 CRI if the event was real

 

[Radko]

Regarding Kalkan

 

[Kaan Azman]

Gökdemir is an integrated system using SAGE's state of art A2A missiles instead of Roketsan's but it uses the same radars

It wouldn't be fair to say that GÖKDOĞAN is state of the art compared to HİSAR O+/HİSAR RF. Those missiles have differences in their operation for surface launch.

• GÖKDOĞAN won't be vertically launched and launcher will have to be directed at target (Despite that, TÜBİTAK SAGE is working on cold launch and thrusters option). HİSARs on the other hand are made for vertical launch from the beginning with the provision for angled launch. Thrust vectoring and general layout play a big role in that suitability.
• GÖKDOĞAN will be a cheaper missile compared to larger and somewhat more complex HİSAR RF. If you think about it, seekers are identical but HİSAR RF also has thrust vectoring and a dual pulse engine driving up the costs. Put that together with 8 missiles per launcher and you get yourself a nice alternative to support HİSARs against saturation attacks of lower end threats.

 

[Afif]

1) we don't really a confirmation of Kinzal shoot down

2) It was a PAC-3 CRI if the event was real

We have confirmation. (Open source intelligence)
And it wasn’t PAC-3.