TR Air Defence Programs

[Afif]

1) we don't really a confirmation of Kinzal shoot down

2) It was a PAC-3 CRI if the event was real

We have confirmation. (Open source intelligence)
And it wasn’t PAC-3.

 

[Afif]

View attachment 60542
Regarding Kalkan

Can you please translate the relevant part?

 

[Radonsider]

We have confirmation.
And it wasn’t PAC-3.

We don't, we still don't have a confirmation, not like US is going to say that it didn't happen, US MIC produces those systems.

What we do have actually is a Patriot TEL hit by Kinzhal, also confirmed by satellite imagery.

Also we have many photos of PAC-3 CRI lower sections crashed into fields of Kiev

 

[Radonsider]

Can you please translate the relevant part?

Tbh not much to be translated, and not much to be seen but they placed Kalkan under Active part, idk if that is a graphical error

 

[Afif]

We don't, we still don't have a confirmation, not like US is going to say that it didn't happen, US MIC produces those systems.

What we do have actually is a Patriot TEL hit by Kinzhal, also confirmed by satellite imagery.

Also we have many photos of PAC-3 CRI lower sections crashed into fields of Kiev

Well, read this.

https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Patr...share=450150d6&srid=hZ8Ruf&target_type=answer

That seems pretty evident to me.
There is direct confirmation from US DOD official press secretary. (And given their words matches the OSINT, i am gonna take it)
Anyway, let's agree to disagree.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Siper Ürün 2 could be called as Siper Block 2?
And what do you think: this Siper Ürün 2 has dual thrust / dualpulse or single one?

Last but not least: Hisar-D could have dual thrust / dual pulse in order to fullfill the gap between Siper and Hisar?

( i don't know what kind of thrust/pulse Hisar 0 has)

All our new air defence missiles, be it Hisar or Siper, have dual pulse rocket engines. By that logic I would expect Siper Block 2 to have a dual pulse motor.
If you look at latest MIM-4 PAC-3 MSE rocket engine; It utilises a dual pulse motor. Where as PAC-2 had a dual thrust (boost-sustain mode) engine.

All Hisar missiles ; A, A+, O, O+ and RF utilise dual pulse rocket engines.

 

[Radonsider]

Well, read this.

https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Patr...share=450150d6&srid=hZ8Ruf&target_type=answer

That's seems pretty evident to me.
Anyway, let's agree to disagree.

Second picture shown as a proof for warhead was first posted by Ukraine Military as a crashed P-800

In Russia, the Kinzhal hypersonic missile, which Russians wanted to use to strike Kryvyi Rih, fell down

A Kinzhal hypersonic missile fell down on the territory of Russia. The incident took place on September 14 in the Turkmen district of the Stavropol Krai near the village of Kendzhe-Kulak.

mil.in.ua

Then we have photos of shot down Iskander-M from Azerbaijan and warhead doesn't look similar,

Yeah, let's agree to disagree

 

[Afif]

Second picture shown as a proof for warhead was first posted by Ukraine Military as a crashed P-800

In Russia, the Kinzhal hypersonic missile, which Russians wanted to use to strike Kryvyi Rih, fell down

A Kinzhal hypersonic missile fell down on the territory of Russia. The incident took place on September 14 in the Turkmen district of the Stavropol Krai near the village of Kendzhe-Kulak.

mil.in.ua

That Hypothesis about it being P-800 is not convincing.
because P-800 oink has seeker head in the front. And i am not sure if it is feasible to put radar seeker behind 3 inch thick steel casing.

In the second picture it is probably Iskander’s nose cone, not the warhead. (Given warheads posses its own casing)

 

[Radonsider]

That Hypothesis about it being P-800 is not convincing.
because P-800 oink has seeker head in the front. And i am not sure if it is feasible to put radar seeker behind 3 inch thick steel casing.

In the second picture it is probably Iskander’s nose cone, not the warhead. (Given warheads posses its own casing)

Well that is Ukrainian military

 

[Oublious]

Russian airdefence system working hard before getting destroyed...

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/15x99k8

 

[Cabatli_TR]

It wouldn't be fair to say that GÖKDOĞAN is state of the art compared to HİSAR O+/HİSAR RF. Those missiles have differences in their operation for surface launch.

• GÖKDOĞAN won't be vertically launched and launcher will have to be directed at target (Despite that, TÜBİTAK SAGE is working on cold launch and thrusters option). HİSARs on the other hand are made for vertical launch from the beginning with the provision for angled launch. Thrust vectoring and general layout play a big role in that suitability.
• GÖKDOĞAN will be a cheaper missile compared to larger and somewhat more complex HİSAR RF. If you think about it, seekers are identical but HİSAR RF also has thrust vectoring and a dual pulse engine driving up the costs. Put that together with 8 missiles per launcher and you get yourself a nice alternative to support HİSARs against saturation attacks of lower end threats.

Of course, I totally agree with what you said about differences between missiles in a technical aspect but what is mentioned in terms of usage concept does not make Gökdemir less sophisticated/state of art or less effective. TVC control is a sophisticated tech for missiles indeed but according to design parameters, not every missile has to have TVC to have similar maneuverability. For example, Tamir or Stunner missiles can perform maneuvrability thanks to fore fins integrated in a position close to the head just like Gökdoğan instead of TVC and actuator sensitivity achieve similar maneuvrability at more cost-effective prices.

In addition, angled launch missiles are no less state of art than VLCs. The important issue here is related to the purpose of design and usage concept. Because of the Patriot or NASAMS are angled missiles, they are no less state of art than VL-Mica or Asters series. Each capability comes with its pros and cons. VLC provides more flexibility compared to angled launch missiles.

Apart from this, dual pulse rocket motors will of course have technological superiority in terminal phase and Hisars will be superior to Gokdemir in terms of this capability but as you also mentioned, the cost/effectiveness will come to the fore and cost per missile will be cheaper in Gökdemir side. Mobility will also play more important role because of weight and size differences in Gokdemir side.

 

[Quasar]

 

[Heartbang]

According to Admnt, Hisar-D's will be quad packed, Siper-D's will not. Don't at him, he's had enough.

View attachment 60542
Regarding Kalkan

when did they publish this?

Also, what would be the range of SİPER block 2 if it was air-launched?

 

[Afif]

Also, what would be the range of SİPER block 2 if it was air-launched?

350km

 

[UkroTurk]

İt seems SİPER B2 might be quadpacked in MK-41...Damn...But 100% could be dual packed

İ am looking forward to filling MIDLAS.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Can someone explain what tech did USA use to build SM3 that accroding to wikipedia it says have range of 1200 km altitude 1000km, mach 8-13 ! aslo can shoot down satellites and its not big only 6.5 meter and 343mm -533mm diameter very similar in size with other missiles like pac 3 , SM2 , Aster 30 etc have range only 100-150km ?

 

[Afif]

The age of Standard missile family is over 50 years. The same design has been modified and upgraded inside out countless times to the perfection. Resulting in various members of SM family each with their own multiple variants.

Maybe @Anmdt could tell us further about how despite using same booster and rocket motor of SM-2ER block IV and SM-6 (Mk-72 booster and MK-104 rocket motor) SM-3 block IA/IB can reach such high altitude and longer range? Yet SM-2ER block IV and SM-6 only reaches 33-35km effective altitude. Apparently, just an additional small third stage shouldn’t get you that far high.

 

[TheInsider]

If the diameter of Siper-2 is ≤450mm it will be possible to use it as a dual pack from MIDLAS.

 

[Quasar]

Can someone explain what tech did USA use to build SM3 that accroding to wikipedia it says have range of 1200 km altitude 1000km, mach 8-13 ! aslo can shoot down satellites and its not big only 6.5 meter and 343mm -533mm diameter very similar in size with other missiles like pac 3 , SM2 , Aster 30 etc have range only 100-150km ?

SM3 is an exo atmospheric missile, it has solid rocket booster + dual thrust rocket motor + third stage rocket motor + and finally kinetic warhead since at the final stage after the speration of booster and dual thrust motor, third stage rocket motor places the kinetic warhead into orbit since kinetic warhead operates in the vacuum of space SM3 reachs this ranges and speeds, basicly you are sending a kinetic warhead to orbit. Further not the missile itself but the kinetic warhead has the range and speed.

 

[Kaan Azman]

I just call the kinetic warhead "highly sophisticated puffing headbutter"