TR Air Defence Programs

[UkroTurk]

Ramjets require an initial speed, thats why it's different for sam vs a2a.

So what? İn the past it wasn't problem. US Navy used them with booster.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Yeah, i wonder that too. But i think they are actually using this drone (GÖKSUNGUR JEMSAH?) from the article below. What i realized in some test videos is, sometimes they don't show the target at all. Maybe they don't want to go public with it. Afaik there is no information about this drone at TAI website too.

(2022)

Türkiye'nin İlk Süpersonik İHA'sını TUSAŞ Geliştirdi

Türkiye'nin ilk Süpersonik İHA'sı, TUSAŞ tarafından geliştirildi. Milli imkanlarla geliştirilen Süpersonik İHA, önemli görevler üstlenecek.

www.savunmasanayist.com

I don’t think that drone ever materialised in quantity.
The last news about it was that TUSAŞ was preparing it as a 0.9 Mach drone.
It was first mentioned by Mr Kotil.

“We Plan to Render the Supersonic Target Drone a Product that Flies at Mach 0.9 Later This Year”

During the EFES-2022 Combined, Joint Live-Fire Field Exercise on June 8th, 2022, Defence Turkey Magazine created an opportunity to have an exclusive interview with TUSAŞ Executive Vice President for U

www.defenceturkey.com

 

[UkroTurk]

RIM-8 Talos - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sea Dart - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Bloodhound (missile) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Yasar_TR]

Could you please enlighten me ? If ramjet air to air missiles superior over solid fueled rocket a2a missiles, why today we don't have ramjet SAMs?

Why did UK and US Navy leave ramjet SAMs?

Today if we converted Göktan into SAM, What would be the pros and cons over rockets?

To say they are superior is a subjective sentence.
To have a throttle control until it hits the target is a big advantage. But ramjets are costly. And they need to reach 1+ Mach before ramjet kicks in. A dual pulse long range a2a missile can do the same deed at half the cost. %ge kill rate may be lower than a ramjet version. But you can fire 2 per target.

Meteor costs best part of 4 million dollars.
Prior to Ukranian war the “sale” price of dual thrust engined, 160km range Amraam aim 120D was 1.8 million a piece to Japan. (To the US airforce it should be half that).
JATM Aim 260 with dual pulse motor and with a prospective range of more than 200km was expected to cost around 2.5 million dollars.
Also having an air breathing engine Ramjet’s flight limit starts around 30-32 Km altitude.

 

[UkroTurk]

To say they are superior is a subjective sentence.
To have a throttle control until it hits the target is a big advantage. But ramjets are costly. And they need to reach 1+ Mach before ramjet kicks in. A dual pulse long range a2a missile can do the same deed at half the cost. %ge kill rate may be lower than a ramjet version. But you can fire 2 per target.

Meteor costs best part of 4 million dollars.
Prior to Ukranian war the “sale” price of dual thrust engined, 160km range Amraam aim 120D was 1.8 million a piece to Japan. (To the US airforce it should be half that).
JATM Aim 260 with dual pulse motor and with a prospective range of more than 200km was expected to cost around 2.5 million dollars.
Also having an air breathing engine it’s flight limit starts around 30-32 Km altitude.

If NAMO has developed such SAM, I am sure ASELSAN has already made it.



The best motor for anti- ballistic SAM ?

renewed interest and investment in high-speed guided-weaponry is going to see the wider adoption of ramjet and scramjet (supersonic-combustion ramjet) engine technology in both offensive and defensive roles.

https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2019/09/ramjet-powered-surface-to-air-missiles-comback/

Ramjet engines differ from solid-propellant motors in that they use atmospheric oxygen rather than including an oxidizer as part of the solid motor. A ramjet-sustainer missile of the same size as a solid-propellant missile will provide greater range and a higher average speed. The mass of the oxidiser, which constitutes most of a solid motor, is replaced with fuel.

What a SAM using ramjet propulsion also offers is the ability be used against comparatively fast high-altitude targets while still under power, at ranges at which solid-propellant missile motors would have burned out, with the missile rapidly losing energy[/URL]

 

[Saithan]

Sorry, but why all the talk about ramjet vs solid fuel a2a missile. We don't have solid fuel a2a missiles yet right ? Plus their advantage is we can store then for longer time, which would be more cost effective ? So shouldn't our industry not be focusing on solid fuel primarily and have some ramjet r&d going on parallel ?

 

[uçuyorum]

Sorry, but why all the talk about ramjet vs solid fuel a2a missile. We don't have solid fuel a2a missiles yet right ? Plus their advantage is we can store then for longer time, which would be more cost effective ? So shouldn't our industry not be focusing on solid fuel primarily and have some ramjet r&d going on parallel ?

Gökdoğan?

 

[Saithan]

Gökdoğan?

65+km range, don't we need to have 90- 120km versions before. Go over to more ramjet focus. There is also the need to order these from TSK to know that they live up to expectations.

 

[uçuyorum]

65+km range, don't we need to have 90- 120km versions before. Go over to more ramjet focus. There is also the need to order these from TSK to know that they live up to expectations.

100+ mentioned in 2022

 

[Saithan]

100+ mentioned in 2022

Thanks for pointing it out

 

[TheInsider]

Could you please enlighten me ? If ramjet air to air missiles superior over solid fueled rocket a2a missiles, why today we don't have ramjet SAMs?

Why did UK and US Navy leave ramjet SAMs?

Today if we converted Göktan into SAM, What would be the pros and cons over rockets?

Rocket Engine AA missiles:
Doesn't require initial speed
Accelerates lightning fast hits Mach 5 than starts decelerating
Burns out fast, counted in seconds. (8-12 seconds)
Nearly no speed control
Dual pulse rockets execute a second burn near the terminal phase,
Overall, less energy, especially in the terminal engagement phase.
Wide engagement envelope and angles, as long as it has enough energy.

SFDR (Solid-Fuel Ducted Ramjet)
Requires initial speed, so it has a built-in booster. (It is not enough to launch from the ground)
Accelerates more slowly compared to rockets, hits slightly higher than mach 4 at terminal phase
Burns out slowly compared to rockets (total burn time more than a minute)
It is throttleable, but it is not precise due to the nature of a solid fuel ramjet engine; the missile adjusts its burn rate according to the target
Overall, more energy compared to rockets
Narrow engagement envelope and angles. Some engagement envelopes and angles have a detrimental effect on the air intake of the engine and burn efficiency.

Gökhan Liquid Fuel Ramjet
Requires initial speed; it has a built-in rocket booster. (It is not enough to launch from the ground)
Accelerates more slowly compared to rockets. Similar acceleration compared to a solid fuel ramjet. Hits around Mach 5 at terminal phase.
Burns out slower compared to rockets and solid fuel ramjet
Very precise speed control(active fuel injection control) on a wide speed range (Mach 2-5)
A separate fuel tank is required, unlike solid fuel ramjets. Fuel injection is complicated and needs special fuel injectors.
More energy compared to solid fuel ramjets.
Wider engagement envelope and angles compared to solid fuel ramjets due to active air inlet and active fuel injection control

Ramjet Energy density
Gel fuel>solid fuel> liquid (kerosene)

 

[Pokemonte13]

Do we know what kind of ballistic missiles siper block 3 can intercept?

 

[Sanchez]

First test fire from the new Pusu Cirit against a low flying drone at 3k feet.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1951188236501385662

 

[boredaf]

First test fire from the new Pusu Cirit against a low flying drone at 3k feet.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1951188236501385662

Between Eren and now g2a capable Cirit, we seem to be covering our bases pretty damn well, this is good news.

 

[UkroTurk]

Sorry, but why all the talk about ramjet vs solid fuel a2a missile. We don't have solid fuel a2a missiles yet right ? Plus their advantage is we can store then for longer time, which would be more cost effective ? So shouldn't our industry not be focusing on solid fuel primarily and have some ramjet r&d going on parallel ?

Gökbora is solid fueled ramjet and range +100mile.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Sorry, but why all the talk about ramjet vs solid fuel a2a missile. We don't have solid fuel a2a missiles yet right ? Plus their advantage is we can store then for longer time, which would be more cost effective ? So shouldn't our industry not be focusing on solid fuel primarily and have some ramjet r&d going on parallel ?

Gökhan engine is liquid fuelled ramjet. But it is gel form liquid fuel. Therefore it behaves like a solid fuel regarding storage and mixing it with solid particles. You can add solid particles to it to improve burn efficiency. And those particles don’t sink to the bottom. They are more homogeneously distributed within the gel. Having gel form fuel, allows it to be stored like solid fuelled missiles. Being gel form liquid allows it to be injected like a liquid fuel, in to combustion chamber in a regulated manner.

Gokbora is solid fuelled ramjet propelled as @UkroTurk has stated.

 

[Aqerdf]

Unpopular opinion / rant / etc.:

Hisar-A+ and Hisar-RF should be ditched, and their lots / production space should be replaced by Hisar-O+ (IIR) and Siper-1 (both with booster version and also without/no booster version).

 

[Pokemonte13]

Unpopular opinion / rant / etc.:

Hisar-A+ and Hisar-RF should be ditched, and their lots / production space should be replaced by Hisar-O+ (IIR) and Siper-1 (both with booster version and also without/no booster version).

Siper 1 without booster is hisar rf
Secondly what are you going to do with iir with a booster

 

[Aqerdf]

Siper-1, without booster / just missile part is a bit bigger than Hisar-RF, they're not the same missile.

Wasn't meant for boostered Hisar-O, sorry. That part is meant for Siper-1.

 

[CAN_TR]

Unpopular opinion / rant / etc.:

Hisar-A+ and Hisar-RF should be ditched, and their lots / production space should be replaced by Hisar-O+ (IIR) and Siper-1 (both with booster version and also without/no booster version).

I bet you are also one of those guys who just look at the max. range totally neglecting the fact that short-ranged air defense missiles are equally important.