TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Sanchez]

The republicans also want this to go through from what I can gather. All the production+jobs of this stuff is in valuable swing or retain districts for GOP.

In our preferred scenario, not many jobs as both modernization of existing frames and building of the new frames would be done by TAI.

Why the missiles and bombs though? Turkiye can already produce any type of missile and bomb that the US produces.

Which we won't be able to use on Block 70s. Only US made unless we pay for them to certify those.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Why the missiles and bombs though? Turkiye can already produce any type of missile and bomb that the US produces.

Because we are not buying bombs, we are buying influence. At least I think so...

These pile of human refuse who call themselves politicians are beholden to the military industrial complex. Saying yes or no to this deal is not a career breaking choice for a lot of them, and they like the military industrial complex donor money. Their complete and utter lack of dignity works or us in this instance, so that's good.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Turkiye wants to buy +900 missiles, +800 bombs, 40 F-16 Block 70s and 80 modernization kits from the US with a total value of $20 billion. According to a report by the US Congress, Turkiye has fulfilled the requirements for the F-16 purchase.

Here is the detailed news:
https://www.defensehere.com/tr/abd-kongresi-raporuna-gore-turkiye-f-16-icin-sartlari-yerine-getirdi

Menendez is still crying, but many other senile congressmen seem to have softened their rhetorics esp after Finland joined NATO. The Report places particular emphasis on our support for Ukraine and our stance on the straits regime, referring to their critical importance. And also, 20 billion dollars is a huge military purchase. Turkish MoD is a military buyer that cannot be ignored no matter what.

Most expensive Block 70 F16 costs around 60 million dollars a piece. But the price of the plane varies according to the variant being bought and the “country” buying it.
Amraam aim 120D costs 1.1 million dollars
JSOW costs 720 thousand dollars
JDAM kits cost 40thousand dollars
Aim 9X costs 470thousand dollars.

Greece is paying 2,4 billion dollars for 84 V70 kits.

The math doesn’t work out when you add up all the bombs and missiles plus the planes with the kits. That 20 billion dollar figure can not be justified.

A coarse calculation :
2.4 billion for kits
2.4 billion for 40 planes
1-1.5 billion for various bombs and missiles (900 missiles and 800 bombs)
Total cost is around 6 billion dollars. This is before we negotiate to manufacture the planes and the engines in house.
Can someone explain how this 20 billion dollar figure is reached?

 

[dBSPL]

Turkiye and the UK discussed the Eurofighter Typhoon and TF-X fighter jet at the NATO meeting in Brussels. The Eurofighter - a joint project between Airbus, BAE and Leonardo - has been mooted as an alternative if F-16 deal with US falls through.

The main scope of the UK-TR delegation talks on industrial cooperations:

• Eurofighter Typhoon acquisition and integration of Turkish systems on this platform,
• Joint development of military-grade aviation engines,
• SMR Construction and creation of SMR industry in TR,
• Development of cooperation in aviation programs, especially visible over MMU.

(via Andrew Hopkins, Diplomatic Correspondent of TRTWorld)

Regarding EF, there seems to be no problem with BAE and Lonardo. We can also put Spain in this group. It should be the responsibility of the other three partner countries, especially the UK, to overcome the German barrier.

*


off-topic note: Turkiye has a keen interest in the introduction of Advanced Small Modular Reactors into its energy infrastructure and has been in discussions with US, British and some other companies for the last few years. To some extent, this may be an extension of the military procurement interest between F16 and EF. In other words, the country that receives the aircraft order may also be the country to cooperate on SMR. Like a carrot on the end of a stick, reciprocally.

 

[what]

I was about to share the same. Source here:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1643580999790473216

 

[dBSPL]

I was about to share the same. Source here:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1643580999790473216

I cited the source, the reason why I dont shared the direct tweet is the second part, which is completely wrong and contains incomplete information.

 

[babayetu]

Most expensive Block 70 F16 costs around 60 million dollars a piece. But the price of the plane varies according to the variant being bought and the “country” buying it.
Amraam aim 120D costs 1.1 million dollars
JSOW costs 720 thousand dollars
JDAM kits cost 40thousand dollars
Aim 9X costs 470thousand dollars.

Greece is paying 2,4 billion dollars for 84 V70 kits.

The math doesn’t work out when you add up all the bombs and missiles plus the planes with the kits. That 20 billion dollar figure can not be justified.

A course calculation :
2.4 billion for kits
2.4 billion for 40 planes
1-1.5 billion for various bombs and missiles (900 missiles and 800 bombs)
Total cost is around 6 billion dollars. This is before we negotiate to manufacture the planes and the engines in house.
Can someone explain how this 20 billion dollar figure is reached?

In general, FMS purchases can provide an international partner contract administrative services that may not be available through the private sector and may help lower unit costs by consolidating purchases for FMS customers with those of DoD.

Turkey buys through FMS, so whatever US army is paying to lockeed martin we or another FMS purchaser pay the same price. No overpaying or underpaying. Whatever Bulgaria pays for F-16 block 70s we will pay around same price, whatever US air force is paying to jdam we will pay the exact same. IF US air force is buying 10.000 if we want to buy 1000 and Bulgaria wants to buy 1000jdams, US DoD will order 12.000 jdams. We will pay the 1000/12000 of that total negotiated price.

As of yet, We don't know what exactly the deal is, if it is only f-16s and bombs or more, it could be more. It could also be that the price is less than 20b$ like 5-6b$ but POTUS could pile up some 3-4 countries FMS sales and send a single letter of notification that could be 20b$ total. I read some reports Biden is thinking of binding Turkish f-16s and Greek f-35s to single letter of notification so that corrupt Menendez who is now Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee would not block this sale.

So, Until Biden formally sent the letter to congress we will not know what the exact list of items and price.

The procedure about licence production or off-set aggrements is a little bit complex but it wont change the initial price. If TAI and Lockeed Martin agrees on that deal it will be like on paper TAI exporting that materials to LM.

 

[I_Love_F16]

I cited the source, the reason why I dont shared the direct tweet is the second part, which is completely wrong and contains incomplete information.

Yep he said that the TF-X is a joint project between the UK and TR.

 

[boredaf]

The main scope of the UK-TR delegation talks on industrial cooperations:

• Eurofighter Typhoon acquisition and integration of Turkish systems on this platform,
• Joint development of military-grade aviation engines,
• SMR Construction and creation of SMR industry in TR,
• Development of cooperation in aviation programs, especially visible over MMU.

(via Andrew Hopkins, Diplomatic Correspondent of TRTWorld)

Regarding EF, there seems to be no problem with BAE and Lonardo. We can also put Spain in this group. It should be the responsibility of the other three partner countries, especially the UK, to overcome the German barrier.

Personally, I would prefer a deal like this rather than just buying F-16s from US as this opens more possibilities for us, this would be give us more bang for our buck down the road. That is of course, if we get help and guarantees (in written form) that there'll be no interference in deliveries or anything else from UK. Also, it'd be amazing if we could build our own Eurofighters instead of waiting for them.

 

[Khagan1923]

Most expensive Block 70 F16 costs around 60 million dollars a piece. But the price of the plane varies according to the variant being bought and the “country” buying it.
Amraam aim 120D costs 1.1 million dollars
JSOW costs 720 thousand dollars
JDAM kits cost 40thousand dollars
Aim 9X costs 470thousand dollars.

Greece is paying 2,4 billion dollars for 84 V70 kits.

The math doesn’t work out when you add up all the bombs and missiles plus the planes with the kits. That 20 billion dollar figure can not be justified.

A coarse calculation :
2.4 billion for kits
2.4 billion for 40 planes
1-1.5 billion for various bombs and missiles (900 missiles and 800 bombs)
Total cost is around 6 billion dollars. This is before we negotiate to manufacture the planes and the engines in house.
Can someone explain how this 20 billion dollar figure is reached?

I said the same things here months ago. The things we hear are supposedly in the deal don't even make up 50% of the 20 Billion.

 

[Sanchez]

Personally, I would prefer a deal like this rather than just buying F-16s from US as this opens more possibilities for us, this would be give us more bang for our buck down the road. That is of course, if we get help and guarantees (in written form) that there'll be no interference in deliveries or anything else from UK. Also, it'd be amazing if we could build our own Eurofighters instead of waiting for them.

UK isn't the problematic one here. Nor Italy or Spain. Germany is.

 

[boredaf]

UK isn't the problematic one here. Nor Italy or Spain. Germany is.

I think you misunderstood me, I wasn't saying we would need guarantees about the UK, I was saying we would need guarantees from the UK about other participants in the Eurofighter project won't be a problem for us, now or in the future.

 

[Bogeyman]

The serial production contract was signed with TAI within the scope of the ÖZGÜR project carried out by the Presidency of Defense Industries, which aims to modernize the Block-30 version of the F-16 aircraft with national avionic systems. In the project, serial device production started rapidly and the first deliveries were made.

IFF Mod 5/S responder integration to the CN-235 General Purpose aircraft in the Air Force Command inventory, and the AB212 and SH-70 helicopters in the Naval Forces Command inventory, has successfully completed the acceptance activities. Serial integration activities for the relevant platforms continue.

Source: ASELSAN 2022 annual report

 

[Yasar_TR]

F-16 ÖZGÜR Projesi'nde kritik süreç başladı

F-16 Blok 30 Aviyonik Modernizasyonu (ÖZGÜR) Projesi kapsamında ASELSAN, seri üretim alt sistem teslimatlarına başladı. İlk uçağın, bu yıl teslimi bekleniyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

There is a fine and somewhat hidden information in this article, whereby it is mentioned that the “Özgür” project is in full production mode and deliveries of first two block 30 planes will be made this year. It is also mentioned that the Murad Aeda radar has been included in to the project itself. There is also the information that the Murad Aesa radar will be released for use during the course of this year.
That tells me that these 2 planes and all others following them will be with Aesa radars.
That is the logical thing to do. Without the Murad radar, these planes are no more than modern and updated versions of Block 50+ F16s. Hopefully the Murad Radar will transform these planes in to the monsters we want them to be.

 

[uçuyorum]

F-16 ÖZGÜR Projesi'nde kritik süreç başladı

F-16 Blok 30 Aviyonik Modernizasyonu (ÖZGÜR) Projesi kapsamında ASELSAN, seri üretim alt sistem teslimatlarına başladı. İlk uçağın, bu yıl teslimi bekleniyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

There is a fine and somewhat hidden information in this article, whereby it is mentioned that the “Özgür” project is in full production mode and deliveries of first two block 30 planes will be made this year. It is also mentioned that the Murad Aeda radar has been included in to the project itself. There is also the information that the Murad Aesa radar will be released for use during the course of this year.
That tells me that these 2 planes and all others following them will be with Aesa radars.
That is the logical thing to do. Without the Murad radar, these planes are no more than modern and updated versions of Block 50+ F16s. Hopefully the Murad Radar will transform these planes in to the monsters we want them to be.

After trying to play with F16C Block 50 in DCS, even the cockpit upgrade seems a lot. So many buttons and displays should make pilots life difficult. The streamlined design is nice.

 

[Angry Turk !!!]

F-16 ÖZGÜR Projesi'nde kritik süreç başladı

F-16 Blok 30 Aviyonik Modernizasyonu (ÖZGÜR) Projesi kapsamında ASELSAN, seri üretim alt sistem teslimatlarına başladı. İlk uçağın, bu yıl teslimi bekleniyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

There is a fine and somewhat hidden information in this article, whereby it is mentioned that the “Özgür” project is in full production mode and deliveries of first two block 30 planes will be made this year. It is also mentioned that the Murad Aeda radar has been included in to the project itself. There is also the information that the Murad Aesa radar will be released for use during the course of this year.
That tells me that these 2 planes and all others following them will be with Aesa radars.
That is the logical thing to do. Without the Murad radar, these planes are no more than modern and updated versions of Block 50+ F16s. Hopefully the Murad Radar will transform these planes in to the monsters we want them to be.

Is the Özgür project on par with the Block 70 F-16?

 

[TheInsider]

Is the Özgür project on par with the Block 70 F-16?

It is better when MURAD AESA comes into the picture. We will be able to use Gökhan with our F-16s. Viper offers no similar capability. We will probably add the FEWS EW self-defense suite to the Özgür upgrade in the future. At some point, we will replace SPEWS. When we add the ECM Jamming pod and ESM pod on top of those capabilities, we will have better capabilities than say the Greek block 70 Vipers.

Özgür mod will have 2 phases.
Phase-1 avionic upgrade cockpit will be completely upgraded
Phase-2 MURAD AESA radar and MOD/S (it is tied to the AESA radar) upgrade

Özgür upgraded F-16s can be used after the phase 1 avionic upgrade with existing radars. IMHO we will see the real deal in 2025.

BTW new Özgür prototype studies for block 40 and 50 might start soon.

 

[Yasar_TR]

Is the Özgür project on par with the Block 70 F-16?

@TheInsider has given you your answer.
There are however couple of points that also makes Özgür better and that can not be measured by any means, and that is the fact of:
1. Özgür will be ours through and through.
2. Unknown entity advantage. Everybody knows what SABR Radar of V70 can do. Especially many countries that will employ it ( By purchasing those kits we will know exactly what it’s weak and strong points are) . But no one will know about our Murad and it’s capabilities and the type of indigenous weapons it can help guide. It is most difficult to defend against what you don’t know.

 

[Rodeo]

It cannot be tested on anything Baykar has so,why was it send to Baykar?

By the same token, I could ask "why would they send an untested radar to Baykar if Baykar couldn't test it on AKINCI?" .

I'm not really well versed in the testing campaign of an AESA radar. There probably never was any AESA that was tested on a drone. The countries that are able to develop such an advanced radar will have(or have access to) a dedicated platform to test the instrument.

However, probably, there aren't many(if any) obstacles to test the radar on a drone, given it has the required specs to supply the radar. One problem I can think of is the rated power of AKINCI's generators. AKINCI has more than enough raw power to supply the device but it may not generate as much electric power to test the TR modules to the fullest capacity they were designed for. Other possible problems(in my limited understanding) are the onboard computing power or uplink speed of antennas to transmit the sensor output. But these were known from the beginning and I imagine that the AKINCI platform was designed to handle these requirements from the get go.

 

[Oublious]

Baykar is not the one who is testing the Radar, Baykar duty is to intregate the radar and hand it over to Airforce. The feedback of TuAf is important, Baykar will be consulting the drone.