TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[TheInsider]

30 F-35 costs around ~7 billion. Greece has to pay that amount as Greece needs to invest heavily in the infrastructure to operate F-35.

40 F-16V+ 79 upgrade kits+ an insanely big weapon package will cost ~13 billion if every clause is exercised. You guys can bet that cost will come down to something like 6 billion because we have existing F-16 facilities and we won't buy 900 Amraams or hundreds of cruise missiles. Probably we will order around 250 Amraams. F110s and F-16s will probably be produced in Turkiye so the price will come down.

 

[GoatsMilk]

Turkiye needs to teach Greece a lesson, we need to create the conditions for that. Let them declare 12 miles, it will be a good excuse for us. In this way, Greece should realize what a big mistake and dream it is in. Just like Armenia has realized...

The americans have a long term strategy and they implement it incrementally. They are under no pressure. They are a continent sized nation, resource rich with a population of 400 million. They have no strong enemies on their borders and they have open access to both international seas, Atlantic and pacific.

greece right now is a distraction, that nation is dying away. Its rapidly becoming irrelevant. Look at its demographics, tiny population. Rapidly aging one of the oldest in the EU, its youngsters look to leave at the first opportunity. It has no significant industry and produces no science. Its a dead nation which in 50 years time will be begging Turkey for friendship. The Americans are trying to use this nation in one last conflict to weaken Turkey before its potential is completely expired.

The immediate issue is Syria, Iraq. Understand the more they threaten us, the more they reveal how important those regions are to us. You want to break the american hostility to Turkey you have to break the PKKistan ambition. You control northern syria and nothern iraq and it will become pointless for the USA to remain hostile to us.

They feel that the PKKistan project is finally becoming a real thing and as long as they think it has potential they are going to keep opposing us.

 

[Yasar_TR]

F-16 Blok 70 Türk Hava Kuvvetleri'ne Ne Katar?

Türkiye F-16 Fighting Falcon'un en modern konfigürasyonu olan F-16 Blok 70 tedarikini amaçlıyor. Bu yazımızda, F-16 Blok 70'e değineceğiz.

www.savunmasanayist.com

A fairly in depth analysis of prospective f16V70 purchase and upgrade of 79 planes to V70 status of Turkish airforce.
Need to increase numbers of our fleet and whilst doing that bringing the fleet to modern 4++ generation level is understandable.
However, the cost involved and the use of Turkish indigenous systems and capabilities in the manufacturing of new planes and engines, plus fitting the kits in house is of paramount importance.
We can not jeopardise TFX programme’s timeline due to financial constraints . This involves the timely and successful manufacturing of the indigenous engine of TFX.
Having f16V70 planes against F35 planes is not really a balancing act.

WSJ article states:
“The Biden administration is preparing to seek congressional approval for a $20 billion sale of new F-16 jet fighters to Turkey along with a separate sale of next-generation F-35 warplanes to Greece, in what would be among the largest foreign weapons sales in recent years, according to U.S. officials.”

That means, what they are going to sell to Greece is exempt from the 20 billion dollar deal Turkey has. Now this amount is totally preposterous.
Cost of f16V70 without bells and whistles is around 55-65 million dollars. (Slovakia has agreed to purchase 14 V70 planes for 800million dollars -57million a piece- including full support and spares etc) . Turkey manufacturing engines and parts of the fuselage etc, will mean a lot cheaper than this. In reality the 40 planes should cover the monies owed to us from the F35 deal. If we are purchasing the 160km range Aim120-D a2a missiles, these are 1.1 million each.
Greece paid 2.4 billion for their 120 kits.
No matter what you do and add the arithmetics don’t make sense; Even if we add the 71 Blackhawks license renewal, approximately 110 engines for block 1 MMU, it still doesn’t. Even our 100+ F35 purchase wasn’t worth this much.
As per @Cabatli_TR ’s above post, we just need to wait and see what is discussed and negotiated at face to face talks.

 

[Baryshx]

you are dreaming, I am sorry but it is.

Greece will not declare 12 miles ever!
This will happen when and only When Greece have agreed with usa or europe that they all are prepared to join or support such Action.

It is not about mistake it is about when west or usa will say We are ready and Greece do it

Really, like Ukraine? Ukraine is much larger in area and population than Greece...

What is this, a modern crusade against a NATO member? First examine Greece's population structure and land.

 

[Chocopie]

Of course I think similar things about these issues and I have even written dozens of articles on the impossibilities of this in other forums, but what I am talking about is different. I am not talking about the technical side. It is sad that my point is not understood.

If I understand correctly, you‘ll use a possible Chinese procurement as leverage and tit-for-tat threat against US underhand maneuvers regarding F-35 sales to Greece.

My doubt was, would the US side believe it and take it serious? Chances are, that the Americans would see it as a tactical bluff.

 

[GoatsMilk]

If I understand correctly, you‘ll use a possible Chinese procurement as leverage and tit-for-tat threat against US underhand maneuvers regarding F-35 sales to Greece.

My doubt was, would the US side believe it and take it serious? Chances are, that the Americans would see it as a tactical bluff.

He already tried it with Russian war planes, they saw it quite rightly as a tactical bluff.

We do nothing intelligent under AK party.

 

[Ecderha]

Really, like Ukraine? Ukraine is much larger in area and population than Greece...

What is this, a modern crusade against a NATO member? First examine Greece's population structure and land.

You misunderstanding all!
What Ukraine have to do with Turkiye and Greece situation?
What kind of year you live talking about crusade?

I am talking about present Greece have citizens which hate Turks and They want and They also think that there are islands and land which must be always on agenda that Greece must take it back.
I am talking about that there are always Activity which greece do systematically to make Turkiye to suffer.
I am talking about hostile action always (not talking but doing) against Turkiye
I am talking about there are already union when time is ready they will ask greece to do it

 

[dBSPL]

If I understand correctly, you‘ll use a possible Chinese procurement as leverage and tit-for-tat threat against US underhand maneuvers regarding F-35 sales to Greece.

My doubt was, would the US side believe it and take it serious? Chances are, that the Americans would see it as a tactical bluff.

It is not a bluff, but a declaration that if the US takes such a step, Turkiye will procure a military system of strategicaly equivalent to the F-35 from another supplier. While one aspect of these defence relationships is about increasing the technical capabilities of militaries, the more important part is that they are a means of aligning the interests of vendors and suppliers.

The US controls the momentum of the rupture in relations between Turkiye and the US. This instrument needs to be taken away from the US and if it is necessary to raise a hand, this step should be taken.

Do not underestimate Greece's strategic folly. Giving these systems to Greece is an attempt to tip the balance in favor of Greece, which is a significant risk for Turkiye.

 

[Brokengineer]

280 F16 is not enough for a country like Turkiye, especially considering the expanded theatre, conflicts and retirement of F4s.. I don't think it will be possible to have operational Hurjets or TFXs will be ready for another 10 year, even after 10 years it will be small numbers so, even if F16 deal finalized, Eurofighters should be considered as well.

For this order, I am sure it includes crazy amount of spare engines, so that pushes the price up (not just for F16)

Considering developments in sam batteries, indigenious missile developments and jet engined Uav's 280 planes is not a bad number. Planes are only a part of equation.

 

[Ecderha]

It is not a bluff, but a declaration that if the US takes such a step, Turkiye will procure a military system of strategicaly equivalent to the F-35 from another supplier. The US controls the momentum of the rupture in relations between Turkiye and the US. This instrument needs to be taken away from the US and if it is necessary to raise a hand, this step should be taken.

Do not underestimate Greece's strategic folly. Giving these systems to Greece is an attempt to tip the balance in favor of Greece, which is a significant risk for Turkiye.

I agree 100%.

We/Turkiye must keep going our own way.
There are no worth to show anything. Turkiye did it, show it, said it many many many times.
Relations are not only broken by usa but there is HUGE abyss between usa and Turkiye.

We/Turkiye must focus on our own and do not forgot what usa did last 15+ years

 

[Chocopie]

It is not a bluff, but a declaration that if the US takes such a step, Turkiye will procure a military system of strategicaly equivalent to the F-35 from another supplier. The US controls the momentum of the rupture in relations between Turkiye and the US. This instrument needs to be taken away from the US and if it is necessary to raise a hand, this step should be taken.

Do not underestimate Greece's strategic folly. Giving these systems to Greece is an attempt to tip the balance in favor of Greece, which is a significant risk for Turkiye.

Now I understand your intention. Thanks for your explanation.

The US are master players in this game and they have many tools in their box. My opinion is, that Türkiye can‘t allow itsself to isolate further whatever the outcome will be. Greece is merely a useful figure (hope their strategists know that fact) on the chessboard, the players are US, France and other West European states of interest.

 

[Trakya_forever]

We need roughly 100 F110 engines and the half numbers of F404s not F35s.

 

[dBSPL]

I agree 100%.

We/Turkiye must keep going our own way.
There are no worth to show anything. Turkiye did it, show it, said it many many many times.
Relations are not only broken by usa but there is HUGE abyss between usa and Turkiye.

We/Turkiye must focus on our own and do not forgot what usa did last 15+ years

It is not limited to 15 years. Dear GoatsMilk is quite right that all this is a product of the US long-term strategy. And unfortunately, the political turbulences in our country and, by extension, the mistakes of policymakers continue to pave the way.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

280 F16 is not enough for a country like Turkiye, especially considering the expanded theatre, conflicts and retirement of F4s.. I don't think it will be possible to have operational Hurjets or TFXs will be ready for another 10 year, even after 10 years it will be small numbers so, even if F16 deal finalized, Eurofighters should be considered as well.

For this order, I am sure it includes crazy amount of spare engines, so that pushes the price up (not just for F16)

This is the reason for developing domestic projects ubder the cooperation with Armed Forces staff. We include cost-effective solutions for our own concepts and tactics, designed only for our own needs, with intense surprise effects against enemy. What I was talking about was only for F16 fleet for ahort term. When platforms such as MMU and Hürjet variants enter inventory, we will probably see that manned combat fleet expands to 1.5-2x current fleet in different variants even if obsolete varianta of F16s are taken out of inventory. When we add unmanned strike fleets to the system, situation will reach very strong values. it will be seen that fleet expands not only in Air Force but also in the Naval Forces in mid term.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

I am sorry but it is like you want to lie yourself.
1. "Biden administration is obviously trying hard in order not to lose Turkiye"
- It is a FACT that usa did openly and brutally all or at lease as much that they CAN to make Turkiye to suffer.
Turkiye was pushed to a corner and Turkiye made right decision to go own Way. A hard path full of suffer in all fields ( military, political ,economy, social etc.)

2. "The fleet structure that will be formed in final situation is;"
-This is equal to a "Troy Horse" situation. How many times were showed and said to Turkiye that -> If Turkiye decide to use this toys against usa ally that they Will not allowed by agreement or usa Will not allow or usa will make SURE that this Toys to be hacked or disable features.
They will not allow Turkiye to not OBEY


Why some of you are keep forgetting history!?
Why you keep lying youself with Naive dreams that if you Pay for Toys you will have right to decide When and How you can use them?
How many years Turks countries have to Wait Turkiye the Head of other Turkic countries to "Wake up and united" -> (I am talking about society, economy, military, as Turkiye start to produce OWN and share with Turkic )?
Why ALWAYS world or Turks have to suffer when There are events which other country on start killing Turkic people and waiting Turkiye to step up and come to help. Turkiye just start to Talk and always keep ask usa Can we help do it?

From outside it is look like that Turks are weak and only talk -> "Hot air" -> Nothing happens -> and as history shows (at list last 50 years) . Turkic people have to die and suffer again and again because Turkiye decide to ask and ask and obey what usa say

Instead of giving a speech with empty slogans, try to understand what I wrote. Do not create a perception based on ideas that I didnt say or defend. My determination was on what Biden government's intentions were in the eventuality. The US political structure consists of many different factions and decision-making mechanisms outside the government behind the curtain. The starting point of these talks about F16 is that money paid in the F35 project is somehow obtained through the committee formed to solve this problem. Army officials also express that Turkiye needs a intermediate solution at some point. Apart from that, every topic you talk about this matter from politic perspective and your accusatory attitude about my stance about independance of my country from US is about the limits of your own comprehension and assumption, not about my ideas.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Not to burst your bubble but Greece doesn't have the strategic depth for air dominance. I.E. we'll bomb their runways with cruise and ballistic missiles. They can only succeed with complete western support and at that point it's time for total war anyways. Plus I believe our air defence will be a pretty hard one to crack with just one squadron of F-35s running SEAD. Approach war with a holistic view. We are not hopeless. In fact time is on our side (except aging F-16s).

Even the F-16 thing is not all doom and gloom. UCAVs, long range precision artillery and ballistic/cruise missiles can do the F-16's air-land missions better than F-16! All they'll do will be to counter enemy fighters, but with an entire networked fire support infrastructure behind them (SİPER, HİSAR, BVRAAM loaded Akıncı's etc). When Kızılelma is introduced that will also take weight off the shoulders of these planes.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Buying S400 was a dumb idea:

1. We lost access to $15 billion of business from parts sales
2. We lost access to 100+ F-35A and 18 F-35B
3. No Tech transfer from S400
4. We've already developed SIPER
5. Greece will now have air superiority

Greece will most likely upgrade the F-35 to Block 4 configuration with the new APG-85 radar that is better than BURFIS on MMU.

Good luck using crappy Russian tech from the 1990s against a block 4 F35.

What do you mean by "better than BURFIS"? Do you support your claim technically?

I would also appreciate if you summarize how Greece will achieve Air Superiority?

 

[Blackeyes90]

How do you know that Greece are not capable of joint combat operations like Turkey can conduct? Have not the greece air force trained with Nato, the americans, and the israelis for such a long time? Or are you maybe refering to combat experience?

I dont. But their F16's (except block52) dont have link 16 capabilities. Which seriously hampers their networking abilities. They upgrade f 16 so that they want to gain the ability to share target information within the Fighters.

 

[Cabatli_TR]

Not to burst your bubble but Greece doesn't have the strategic depth for air dominance. I.E. we'll bomb their runways with cruise and ballistic missiles. They can only succeed with complete western support and at that point it's time for total war anyways. Plus I believe our air defence will be a pretty hard one to crack with just one squadron of F-35s running SEAD. Approach war with a holistic view. We are not hopeless. In fact time is on our side (except aging F-16s).

Even the F-16 thing is not all doom and gloom. UCAVs, long range precision artillery and ballistic/cruise missiles can do the F-16's air-land missions better than F-16! All they'll do will be to counter enemy fighters, but with an entire networked fire support infrastructure behind them (SİPER, HİSAR, BVRAAM loaded Akıncı's etc). When Kızılelma is introduced that will also take weight off the shoulders of these planes.

PYAS, PASIS and PBAS multi-static passive radars, KUDAR and LIDAR circulating microwave photon quantum radars all were developed/being developed to detect stealth targets.

Hava-SOJ, IHA-SOJ, Kara-SOJ(Koral2) equipped with AESA with GaN HEMT transistors which have capability of jamming multiple radar/Rf sources simultaneously. All those are also being developed for bigger threats that will emerge in future.

 

[BalkanTurk90]

Ok let's give the benefit of the doubt, let's assume BURFIS and the APG-85 are exactly the same.
The question is which aircraft is more stealthier now?

1. RAM paint on F35 will probably be more advanced than the one on TFX.
2. TFX will still use 4th generation engine technology probably until mid 2030s.
3. F-35 will have better frontal and rear radar reduction than TFX.

Our S400s or TFX wouldn't be able to detect the F-35 first.
This was a stupid gamble. I hope next government sells the S400 to Ukraine, and we invest into SIPER and get the F35.

Bro you are here defence forum and you should learn something ...
Not only radar can detect other aircrafts
IRST aslo can detect aircraft heat and all human made aircrafts spread alot of heat so u are completly very wrong .
Tfx will detect f35 first using its IRST while F35 use other sensors DaS ,Eots i thing its called but no range of detection is given .
If dog fight happen than TFX can eat f35very easy since f35 is multirole bulky aircraft .