TR Air Forces|News & Discussion

[Angry Turk !!!]

Do you really need KAAN for operations on terror?

Not for terror but for an actual war we need a lot of them.

 

[Spitfire9]

Why?

If we can afford 40 new F16, 40 new EF2000, why would we not be able to afford replacing all F16's?

First replacements will be for 40 F16 blk 30, than 2 batches to replace blk 40's and again several years later the blk 50's

Besides main cost of fighter jets are not the initial purchase price, but all the needed missiles, upgrades, spares and maintenance that all have to be sourced from a foreign country.

In the bigger picture a national fighter will be much less expensive, and exponentially more effective since spares, maintenance, missile load are all sourced locally

It's a case of availability versus certainty (plus cost), isn't it?

Kaan with an indigenous engine looks to be quite a few years away from availabiity but will bring certainty of serviceability.
F-16 should be available sooner but without certainty of ongoing serviceability (risk of US parts and spares suspension).
Eurofighter should be available sooner with greater certainty of ongoing serviceability (lower risk of parts and spares suspension).

 

[KhanOfEurasia]

Turkish Technic has started passenger-cargo aircraft conversions with Elbe Flugzeugwerke GmbH (EFW), one of the leading companies in the industry, as part of the passenger-cargo conversion (P2F) of Airbus A330 aircraft.

Turkish Technic, the first MRO (maintenance, repair and modification) company in the world to cooperate directly with EFW as part of the A330P2F Program, recently carried out the cutting of the upper frame shell (UFS) of the first conversion aircraft and successfully installed the new UFS. This is an important milestone for the installation of the main deck cargo door. This cargo conversion, the first in a series of A330 P2F conversion projects, is scheduled for completion in mid-2024.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1752966513223508014

I'm sure we're all thinking the same thing right now. lol

Will the Airbus A-330 MRTT replace or Supplement the KC-135 in the Tanker Role ?

 

[Kartal1]

Turkish Technic has started passenger-cargo aircraft conversions with Elbe Flugzeugwerke GmbH (EFW), one of the leading companies in the industry, as part of the passenger-cargo conversion (P2F) of Airbus A330 aircraft.

Turkish Technic, the first MRO (maintenance, repair and modification) company in the world to cooperate directly with EFW as part of the A330P2F Program, recently carried out the cutting of the upper frame shell (UFS) of the first conversion aircraft and successfully installed the new UFS. This is an important milestone for the installation of the main deck cargo door. This cargo conversion, the first in a series of A330 P2F conversion projects, is scheduled for completion in mid-2024.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1752966513223508014

I'm sure we're all thinking the same thing right now. lol

Amen!

 

[dBSPL]

Will the Airbus A-330 MRTT replace or Supplement the KC-135 in the Tanker Role ?

Whether or not to expand the tanker fleet is at the disposal of the air force. In my opinion, it should be expanded. But the fleet organization, ground services and economics of this fleet are issues that are beyond my knowledge. A-330 MRT and KC-135s, they are both NATO standard tanker aircraft and the MRTTs have the same boom system that we already use. But these are just speculations, it must be emphasized again and again. We are discussing in the forum environment. While we are at it, let's open up these possibilities a bit:

The Turkish air force's tanker fleet must be one of the most important issues that the US, despite the problematic process in recent years, does not cause much trouble due to the NATO security concept. Therefore, perhaps if the US KC-46 is requested, maybe progress can be made in this regard. In any case, I am in favor of gradually becoming less dependent on US logistics, not only on the combat side, but especially on the logistics and support classes.

101 Asena fleet has 7 KC-135s that have upgraded to the Block 45-1 configuration. Even though the airframes are old, actually we have a very capable tanker fleet. On the other hand, if we start the MRTT program in 2024, it will take a long time to receive fleet-sized aircraft, and there is no such concrete step, we are only speculating currently.

But I think the general opinion that almost all of us share is that the A-330 MRTT would be the most logical choice in many respects. Turkish Airlines has a very significant number of A-330s that it is removing and can remove from its passenger aircraft fleet. Moreover, as can be seen in the news above, the P2F conversions of these aircraft will be realized within THY Technic. There is a very serious cost opportunity.

MRTT conversion takes place at Airbus' Toulouse facilities. However, there is also the following situation: THY Technic becomes a competent MRO for the A-330s, and on the other hand, ASFAT has an important capability such as the FASBAT Retrofit Center for the A400Ms, which is the main cargo aircraft of the Air Force, and this can be extended to the A-330s.

If additional KC-135s are considered for the air force, it seems that military aid type procurement from the US under NATO is a thing of the past. I think that the next tanker aircraft will be brand-new or converted aircraft with a fuselage that can be considered new. So there are actually 2 options. I don't know what kind of a chance we have for the KC-46 right now. Even if there is no political problem, there is already a serious order book and the cost is really high.

No matter how I calculate according to my own logic, the A-330s that THY is removing from the fleet seem to be the most logical choice. Of course, there is FR-TR relations if you go MRTT option, which should not be ignored. TAF is not a boutique air force, it is one of the most important elements of NATO, and each acquisition is astronomical, and that actually has a leverage effect, no matter how problems happened past.

 

[boredaf]

Not for terror but for an actual war we need a lot of them.

That is why you built enough 5th gen for your possible future needs while also maintaining your 4th gen jets. I'm going to quote myself here:

Just off the top of my head, US and Israel are buying F-15s and recently started to upgrade their F-16s, France is buying Rafales, Spain ordered new Eurofighters while UK and Germany are upgrading theirs and might order T4s, China is still producing J-10s and rolled out a new upgrade.

And add to that Russia is also getting new SU-34s. Small countries that rely on others to do the dirty work can switch to 5th gen completely because their planes won't be flying on a regular basis. None of the countries that has to regularly fly their jets are giving up on their work horses, they are expanding them. 5th gens are expensive to fly and maintain, Kaan will be no different. It will not be truly used except for the worst case scenario of an all out war.

 

[Trakya_forever]

What's the cost of 40 EF T4 for Turkiye? Any guess?

 

[Ryder]

Now imagine the future manned Turkish Airforce.

F16V
F16 Ozgur
F35
Eurofighter Typhoon T4
KAAN

One man can dream right.

 

[Spitfire9]

Now imagine the future manned Turkish Airforce.

F16V
F16 Ozgur
F35
Eurofighter Typhoon T4
KAAN

One man can dream right.

Talking of F-35...

The White House is giving hints that Türkiye could return to the JSF F-35 Lightnig II program, from which it had been expelled due to the purchase of Russian S-400 air defense systems.

During a recent interview on CNN Türk, Victoria Nuland, number two at the US State Department, stated that if Türkiye “resolves the S-400 issue,” they could rejoin the F-35 program.

Could Türkiye return to the F-35 program? Washington considers it possible, but with conditions.

The White House is giving hints that Türkiye could return to the JSF F-35 Lightnig II program, from which it had been expelled due to the purchase of Russian S

www.aviacionline.com

 

[IC3M@N FX]

Talking of F-35...

If we were to return to the program, I would buy as few F-35s as possible - 20-30 maximum.
We can then fly them in joint NATO operations with the F-16Vs, so we don't need to send our own Turkish jets (KAAN, F-16 Özgur & Co) to fear prying eyes and spying on foreign soil.

It makes no sense to invest money in a system that costs more to maintain and repair than the aircraft itself.
The Americans don't sell an airplane but a complete ecosystem, even in logistical matters with the F-35 you are 100% tied to them.
Yesterday I got a news on CNN Türk which is already a no go for me, the F-35 has day codes to unlock a flight from the USA.
Not Jokes without these codes, which come from the USA, the plane stays on the ground.
So if Turkey, for whatever reason, does something that the USA does not want or like, these fighter planes will not become active without daily codes.
Therefore, these aircraft only make sense in NATO operations, e.g. against Russia, Iran and various Arab states.
If they were used against Greece or Israel, you wouldn't get any unlock codes the next day at the latest.

 

[Spitfire9]

Yesterday I got a news on CNN Turkey which is already a no go for me, the F-35 has day codes to unlock the flight from the USA.
Without these codes, which come from the USA, the plane stays on the ground.
So if Turkey, for whatever reason, does something that the USA does not want or like, these fighter planes will not become active without daily codes.

If that is the case buying S-400 (which resulted in exclusion from the F-35 program) was a good move!

 

[Dosirak]

We have yet to see a render of the militarized Hürjet. Would love to see 80-100 of these.

Imagine:
80 Hürjet
100+ KAAN
same number of Anka 3s
50-60 Kizilelma
+ existing F16 fleet

Turkey needs to replace almost 80+ of T-38 & CF-5, so I fully expect Turkish Airforce to order 80+ of Hurjet AJT. However, the question is would the Turkish gov't stop from there? Light combat aircarft variant of Hurjet is already in consideration and It is not unreasonable to expect Turkish Airforce to order 60+ of Hurjet LCA as it is much cost effective to air police in Turkish air & seas.

So I could see Turkey to order about 150+ Hurjet in various variants and this would make Hurjet a very competitive LCA in the export market.

 

[Merzifonlu]

I think Kaan's airframe, (I said Kaan's airframe, not Kaan!) is needed right now by both EU countries and Japan and even USA. This is the only 5th generation airframe that they can add to their inventory as soon as possible, which is both long-range, multi-role, and affordable.

Don't let them bother us with the engine. Let them give us P&W F119 engines and let's integrate them into Kaan. Then, each country should use the radar, avionics and weapons of its own choosing on this airframe. Let everyone go their own way with peace of mind.

 

[YeşilVatan]

I think Kaan's airframe, (I said Kaan's airframe, not Kaan!) is needed right now by both EU countries and Japan and even USA. This is the only 5th generation airframe that they can add to their inventory as soon as possible, which is both long-range, multi-role, and affordable.

Don't let them bother us with the engine. Let them give us P&W F119 engines and let's integrate them into Kaan. Then, each country should use the radar, avionics and weapons of its own choosing on this airframe. Let everyone go their own way with peace of mind.

That's a bureucratic nightmare if you're working with Europeans. More than one european nation it becomes an impossible task very quickly. I wish it could happen though.

 

[boredaf]

I think Kaan's airframe, (I said Kaan's airframe, not Kaan!) is needed right now by both EU countries and Japan and even USA.

What? Why would they need it in any way?

 

[Merzifonlu]

What? Why would they need it in any way?

This is because the F35 and F22 fighters cannot offer the US army the long range advantage in the Pacific at low cost and in a short time. Both remain short range for the Pacific. Although NGAD was developed for this, there is a time and cost problem. There is no need to even talk about other countries, they do not have 5th generation aircraft in the first place.

 

[uçuyorum]

This is because the F35 and F22 fighters cannot offer the US army the long range advantage in the Pacific at low cost and in a short time. Both remain short range for the Pacific. Although NGAD was developed for this, there is a time and cost problem. There is no need to even talk about other countries, they do not have 5th generation aircraft in the first place.

Well they have B21, and honestly, if they wanted it they could turn it into a mean A2A platform as well.

 

[boredaf]

This is because the F35 and F22 fighters cannot offer the US army the long range advantage in the Pacific at low cost and in a short time. Both remain short range for the Pacific. Although NGAD was developed for this, there is a time and cost problem. There is no need to even talk about other countries, they do not have 5th generation aircraft in the first place.

They don't really need anymore than what F-35 has, its combat range should be enough to fly from Japan to China, especially with external fuel, let alone from South Korea. On top of that, there would be at least half a dozen aircraft carriers there, and not to mention B-2s and possibly B-21s making bombing runs from their bases in the US. And US has a lot of other bases in the Pacific, around China that would let them control it.

It is quite ridiculous, imo, to say that they need something like Kaan. They specifically went the other way while designing F-35s and all that time they've also been getting ready for a war with China.

 

[Spitfire9]

I think Kaan's airframe, (I said Kaan's airframe, not Kaan!) is needed right now by both EU countries and Japan and even USA. This is the only 5th generation airframe that they can add to their inventory as soon as possible, which is both long-range, multi-role, and affordable.

UK, France and Sweden have been designing supersonic fighters for over 70 years. UK and France have built stealthy UAV demonstrators, both with first flight in 2012 - BAE Systems Taranis and Dassault Neuron.

I suspect that BAE Systems and Dassault have a better understanding of supersonic stealthy aircraft design than TAI but I get your point: why should different developers incur massive cost designing several airframes of roughly the same size and weight, when it would be much cheaper to just use one airframe to house different systems from different developers?

 

[uçuyorum]

UK, France and Sweden have been designing supersonic fighters for over 70 years. UK and France have built stealthy UAV demonstrators, both with first flight in 2012 - BAE Systems Taranis and Dassault Neuron.

I suspect that BAE Systems and Dassault have a better understanding of supersonic stealthy aircraft design than TAI but I get your point: why should different developers incur massive cost designing several airframes of roughly the same size and weight, when it would be much cheaper to just use one airframe to house different systems from different developers?

I mean Tempest looks like KAAN a bit, if you didn't notice, especially newer concepts