TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Yasar_TR]

I think I need to make a correction here. TS-1400 turboshaft engine is 100% national with everything. This includes the gearbox. I personally heard it from my engineer friend at TEI.
Mahmut Akşit himself confirmed that the gearbox is ready.

""With the first shaft gearbox, we have reached the maximum continuous power cycle of our TS-1400. It is very important to achieve this in the first attempt with the gearbox produced for the first time. With the localized accessories in the TEI-TS1400 engine, we have reached the maximum output speed of 23 thousand rpm and the maximum continuous power of 1400 horsepower. "

Milli helikopter motoru 2023'te insanlı uçuş testlerine başlayacak

TUSAŞ Motor Sanayii AŞ Yönetim Kurulu Başkanı ve Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Mahmut Faruk Akşit, "Hedefimiz 2023 içinde TEI-TS1400 motorunun bütün testleri başarıyla geçerek, Sivil Havacılık Genel Müdürlüğünden insanlı uçuş sertifikasını almasıdır." dedi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

If memory serves, TAI signed a deal with an Italian company to supply the transmission for the CTS-800 engine to be used in Atak.
For the TS1400, they were also thinking to use the same company. But going forward for Gokbey and other new helicopters we may be looking at producing the transmission in house. Alp Havacilik is the main candidate capable for this task as they already produce gears and various parts for Sikorsky helicopters. Currently their production list does not include t129 or Gokbey transmission. But their R&D details would not be open to public.
By the way, nothing can be really 100% local production. There will always be a certain non national stuff in any manufacturing process. In fact it is healthier to have a good balanced percentage of your production outsourced from other countries. This is for economic and logistic reasons, vital. Important point is these parts should be available to you from various sources not subject to sanctions or export limitations. This doesn’t distract from the fact that what you produce is “Indigenously Made in Turkey”

 

[Yasar_TR]

As far as I know, gas turbine engines are more efficient than diesel for electric generation, also lighter, having multiple electric motors combined with gas turbine electric generation could give better result without transmission. However batteries are big part of the problem, especially weight, and for these type of instant charging and powering units, capacitors are better than batteries or a combination of both to save battery lifespan. A tank is definitely not comparable to a hybrid vehicle, high charging and discharging required also a strong big inverter. I am still skeptical about MKE's e-vehicles.

You are correct if you are thinking of large natural gas fired power stations. These special turbines used in these power stations, may also have steam turbines connected to hot gas outlets that produce electricity via both gas and steam turbines. Hence making it very efficient.
When it comes to smaller scale electric production, the hybrid system with a diesel generator is far more efficient and cheaper. A 700HP Diesel engine that can sustain steady drive when needed and charge the batteries at the same time which would give 900-1000HP electric power will propel a tank easily. This system would provide combined or single power modes to extend range and be more economical.
Just check out the drive system used in Aselsan/Tulomsas‘s HSL700 locomotive.

https://www.aselsan.com.tr/HSL700_Hybrid_Shunting_Locomotive_1776.pdf

If MKE solution were not any good, believe me, the Army would not have chosen it.

 

[Merzifonlu]

A 700HP Diesel engine that can sustain steady drive when needed and charge the batteries at the same time which would give 900-1000HP electric power will propel a tank easily.

As an interesting note, the power of the generator and the power of the batteries are inversely proportional here. For a powerful generator, not so powerful batteries will be enough to do the job. There is probably an optimum point between the ratios of these powers. I wonder how MKEK will choose.

 

[UkroTurk]

the batteries would be charging nearly constantly, and the generator would be recharging nearly constantly.

like this:

Great technology but Still there is a 1.5 liter 130hp engine! So in order to generate a MBT you would need a minumum 10 liter gasoline engine.

 

[Radonsider]

Great technology but Still there is a 1.5 liter 130hp engine! So in order to generate a MBT you would need a minumum 10 liter gasoline engine.

Not really

 

[Yasar_TR]

Great technology but Still there is a 1.5 liter 130hp engine! So in order to generate a MBT you would need a minumum 10 liter gasoline engine.

Not really if you check the 1300HP Firtina-e engine, it is a 2.8 litre Diesel engine they are using. For the Altay power needs of 1700-1800HP, it can’t be more than 4-5 litre max. Remember this is not a Diesel power per se. It is diesel Electric power.

MKE's Fırtına Blows Silently

Mechanical and Chemical Industry Incorporated Company (MKE A.Ş.) presented its Hybrid engine Fırtına (Storm) howitzer at IDEF 21.

www.turdef.com

 

[UkroTurk]

Not really

Okay not 10liter but you would need following engines with 1500horse power

BHP-per-litre: the world’s most powerful car engines | Autocar

Throwing displacement at a car engine usually yields more power, but many of these engines are very small – but capable of major specific outputs. Here they are in ranked order

www.autocar.co.uk

Edit: wait fırtına is hybrid not fully electric. Fırtına must have big batteries.

We are speaking about fully electric driven car but with a generator?
İ am puzzled anyway

 

[Yasar_TR]

Okay not 10liter but you would need following engines with 1500horse power

BHP-per-litre: the world’s most powerful car engines | Autocar

Throwing displacement at a car engine usually yields more power, but many of these engines are very small – but capable of major specific outputs. Here they are in ranked order

www.autocar.co.uk

Edit: wait fırtına is hybrid not fully electric. Fırtına must have big batteries.

We are speaking about fully electric driven car but with a generator?

View attachment 45163

Now you are getting there.
You have a Diesel engine that is actually an electric generator. It develops electric current to drive the electric motors directly. But at the same time it also charges the batteries when needed. So both battery power and generator power can be used at the same time.
Because the engines are at the drive wheel spindles, they transfer drive to wheels directly. Hence no transmission.

 

[UkroTurk]

Now you are getting it.
You have a Diesel engine that is actually an electric generator. It develops electric current to drive the electric motors directly. But at the same time it also charges the batteries when needed. So both battery power and generator power can be used at the same time.

But you need powerful batteries to compansate less horsepower. Am i wrong? İt wouldnt cause Additional battery weight ? And it would limit the range.

Edit: if you want constantly generate an electric engine of 50 ton MBT without battery (or micro battery) , you will need min 1500hp Diesel/gasoline engine. If you use less powerful engine as generator, you will have to wait to charge.

There must be optimum battery endurance/ generator's HP ratio...

 

[Yasar_TR]

But you need powerful batteries to compansate less horsepower. Am i wrong? İt wouldnt cause Additional battery weight ? And it would limit the range.

As @merzifonlu stated, these are “series-hybrid” electro diesel engines. They are not your run of the mill Diesel engines that power tractors or trucks. And there is fine balance between diesel power needed and the battery power needed.
For the Firtina howitzer, you wouldn’t need the diesel generation power to be too much. Because the howitzer’s movements will be quite different to a MBT‘s movements, it’s power needs (sudden power needs and continuous power needs) , the electro-diesel power to battery power ratios, will be different too.
So you may need a good deal of batteries for a MBT.. But Firtina howitzer weighs 56 tons. And with 1300HP electric power that weight is transported. So you increase the battery quantity and weight accordingly for the 70 ton MBT. But remember that you will have 1/6th of the fuel you would have in a diesel engined tank. And your generator will weigh a third of the weight of the Diesel engine. So you have already saved a lot of weight, which you could expend as batteries.

 

[Yasar_TR]

But you need powerful batteries to compansate less horsepower. Am i wrong? İt wouldnt cause Additional battery weight ? And it would limit the range.

Edit: if you want constantly generate an electric engine of 50 ton MBT without battery (or micro battery) , you will need min 1500hp Diesel/gasoline engine. If you use less powerful engine as generator, you will have to wait to charge.

There must be optimum battery endurance/ generator's HP ratio...

Wrong I am afraid. You only need 1500HP power when you are climbing out of a ditch from stand still or climbing a very steep hill at full throttle. Under normal driving conditions you don’t need full power.
Your turbo powered street car may have a 300hp engine. But to achieve that power you need to bring the revolution of the engine to 5-6000revs/min. You only do that when you are speeding from stand still. Or you want to overtake in a hurry and go down in gears at full throttle. But normally you drive at 1200-1500revs/min with less than quarter of available power.

 

[UkroTurk]

is a 2.8 litre

I'd like to know which engine Fırtınas use as generator? İndigenous one made in Türkiye?

it can’t be more than 4-5 litre

What is your opinion, there is an alternative of generator ? Should we expect from Tümosan?

 

[Yasar_TR]

I'd like to know which engine Fırtınas use as generator? İndigenous one made in Türkiye?


What is your opinion, there is an alternative of generator ? Should we expect from Tümosan?

Well, I know that for the HSL-700 hybrid locomotive they used an American Cummins K15 generator.
MKE currently in production/modernisation for 50 M113 APCs . We will find out soon what generator they are using. The modernisation of these M113’s will be hybrid pluggable/chargeable version.
There are close to two dozen diesel electric generator factories in Turkey. But which ones could supply the right one is another question.

Son Dakika! TSK'da büyük dönüşüm | Video - Son Dakika Haberleri Bugün | Video

Son Dakika Türkiye Gündem Haberleri - Türkiye zırhlı araçlarını hem güçlendiriyor hem de geliştiriyor. TSK envanterindeki zırhlı araçlar da modernize kapsamı...

www.cnnturk.com

 

[Cypro]

The good side of this technology you can use multiple small engines to charge batteries, 1500 hp single diesel engine is a big problem for Turkiye but not the smaller ones. My only concern is additional battery weight and range.

 

[Ryder]

Hybrid right now is reliable thanks to technology and endurance racing.

Why im mentioning endurance racing because car manufacturers try to showcase their reliability. They want their cars to last for hours without any problems while also conserving fuel and tyres.

Lets not forget endurance is also a big thing in the military you want your machines to run perfectly without much troubles especially for hours.

 

[Yasar_TR]

My only concern is additional battery weight and range.

For that concern, there is the live answer in front of you: E-Firtina ;
56 ton howitzer ferried along by 1300HP developed by a hybrid system that achieves higher speeds and longer ranges. It also saves a lot of weight to make it easier to position more batteries.

 

[UkroTurk]

İ haven't met such an informative entries for a long time , thank you all.
Altay seems to get its engine soon.

Turkish defence industry knows its sh..t

 

[Stuka]

I Think most people have missed this Article from 22.06.2022

Milli Savunma Bakan Yardımcısı Muhsin Dere'den Altay tankı açıklaması

Askeri Fabrika ve Tersane İşletme Anonim Şirketi (ASFAT AŞ) Yönetim Kurulu Başkanı ve Milli Savunma Bakan Yardımcısı Muhsin Dere, TBMM KİT Komisyonu'nda yaptığı açıklamada, "Arifiye'deki Tank Paleti Fabrikası'nın 'tamamının verilmesi, satılması' gibi bir işlem söz konusu değil. Altay tankının...

www.haberturk.com

Muhsin Dere, Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Military Factory Operation Joint Stock Company (ASFAT AŞ) and Deputy Minister of National Defense:

Explaining that the search for the power group of the Altay tank continues, Dere said:

"BMC Power has started to work on domestic engine and transmission production, it continues, it has not been concluded yet. Apart from that, our Defense Industry Presidency is trying to buy power groups, engines and transmissions from Korea. We also have studies for the Storm howitzer and tank from the USA. But We do not have an engine and transmission at the moment. Therefore, this is the answer to the question "Why is there no tank?"

"By the way, we built and tested the second generation Altay tank in Arifiye with the spare power groups purchased from the Germans."

Now the question is what he means by 2nd Gen ALTAY.
It Could be the ALTAY T2 which would be massive news but rather uneventful announcement

This is what I mean by ALTAY T2

 

[Radonsider]

I Think most people have missed this Article from 22.06.2022

Milli Savunma Bakan Yardımcısı Muhsin Dere'den Altay tankı açıklaması

Askeri Fabrika ve Tersane İşletme Anonim Şirketi (ASFAT AŞ) Yönetim Kurulu Başkanı ve Milli Savunma Bakan Yardımcısı Muhsin Dere, TBMM KİT Komisyonu'nda yaptığı açıklamada, "Arifiye'deki Tank Paleti Fabrikası'nın 'tamamının verilmesi, satılması' gibi bir işlem söz konusu değil. Altay tankının...

www.haberturk.com

Muhsin Dere, Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Military Factory Operation Joint Stock Company (ASFAT AŞ) and Deputy Minister of National Defense:

Explaining that the search for the power group of the Altay tank continues, Dere said:

"BMC Power has started to work on domestic engine and transmission production, it continues, it has not been concluded yet. Apart from that, our Defense Industry Presidency is trying to buy power groups, engines and transmissions from Korea. We also have studies for the Storm howitzer and tank from the USA. But We do not have an engine and transmission at the moment. Therefore, this is the answer to the question "Why is there no tank?"

"By the way, we built and tested the second generation Altay tank in Arifiye with the spare power groups purchased from the Germans."

Now the question is what he means by 2nd Gen ALTAY.
It Could be the ALTAY T2 which would be massive news but rather uneventful announcement

This is what I mean by ALTAY T2

View attachment 45213

Also, seems like the tests of Korean powerpacks were successful as he stated that we are trying to get Powerpacks.

 

[TheInsider]

Tümosan might provide a version of its 540hp engine.

I Think most people have missed this Article from 22.06.2022

Milli Savunma Bakan Yardımcısı Muhsin Dere'den Altay tankı açıklaması

Askeri Fabrika ve Tersane İşletme Anonim Şirketi (ASFAT AŞ) Yönetim Kurulu Başkanı ve Milli Savunma Bakan Yardımcısı Muhsin Dere, TBMM KİT Komisyonu'nda yaptığı açıklamada, "Arifiye'deki Tank Paleti Fabrikası'nın 'tamamının verilmesi, satılması' gibi bir işlem söz konusu değil. Altay tankının...

www.haberturk.com

Muhsin Dere, Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Military Factory Operation Joint Stock Company (ASFAT AŞ) and Deputy Minister of National Defense:

Explaining that the search for the power group of the Altay tank continues, Dere said:

"BMC Power has started to work on domestic engine and transmission production, it continues, it has not been concluded yet. Apart from that, our Defense Industry Presidency is trying to buy power groups, engines and transmissions from Korea. We also have studies for the Storm howitzer and tank from the USA. But We do not have an engine and transmission at the moment. Therefore, this is the answer to the question "Why is there no tank?"

"By the way, we built and tested the second generation Altay tank in Arifiye with the spare power groups purchased from the Germans."

Now the question is what he means by 2nd Gen ALTAY.
It Could be the ALTAY T2 which would be massive news but rather uneventful announcement

This is what I mean by ALTAY T2

View attachment 45213

It is probably Altay T2 that is similar in performance to Leopard2A7.