TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Radonsider]

i dont see whats all the confusion.

strap the wheels to a motor, and strap the motor to a small-ish battery. have a 4-banger charge the battery pack as required

boom, done!

Well, it is already done to some T-155 Fırtına's and M113s. I don't see a big problem for Altay except for some time (integration process)

 

[Heartbang]

Well, it is already done to some T-155 Fırtına's and M113s. I don't see a big problem for Altay except for some time (integration process)

gotta have it ASAP

 

[UkroTurk]

A Turboshaft engine could be used as power generator for a tank? İ mean would create efficient energy as diesels?

Hybrid electric aircraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Honeywell targets urban air mobility market with new hybrid turboshaft engine

Looking to expand its offerings for urban air mobility solutions, Honeywell International, Inc. of Charlotte, North Carolina has developed a new hybrid-electric turbogenerator prototype based on its existing HTS900 turboshaft engine.

www.sae.org

Safran Turboshaft To Power Zunum’s Hybrid/Electric Airliner | AIN

Ardiden 3Z rated to generate between 1,700 and 2,000 shaft horsepower

www.ainonline.com

However i don't think making a transmission causes more trouble and more difficult than a making 1500hp tank engine.

So there is still a chance for Turkish M1 Abrams/T80.

 

[Radonsider]

A Turboshaft engine could be used as power generator for a tank? İ mean would create efficient energy as diesels?

Hybrid electric aircraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Honeywell targets urban air mobility market with new hybrid turboshaft engine

Looking to expand its offerings for urban air mobility solutions, Honeywell International, Inc. of Charlotte, North Carolina has developed a new hybrid-electric turbogenerator prototype based on its existing HTS900 turboshaft engine.

www.sae.org

Safran Turboshaft To Power Zunum’s Hybrid/Electric Airliner | AIN

Ardiden 3Z rated to generate between 1,700 and 2,000 shaft horsepower

www.ainonline.com

However i don't think making a transmission causes more trouble and more difficult than a making 1500hp tank engine.

So there is still a chance for Turkish M1 Abrams/T80.

No, transmission is the hardest part, it is very complicated and needs to stand against 70 tons while propelling the tank

 

[UkroTurk]

No, transmission is the hardest part, it is very complicated and needs to stand against 70 tons while propelling the tank

An engine does same work but under high temperature and pressure.

Making a reliable and compact 1500hp engine for MBT is absolutely harder and more difficult.


Dağın zirvesine bir metre kala "çok zor, ben yapamıyorum" demek gibi.

We are a country whose defence industry created a turboshaft helicopter engine. Tank transmission not a problem.

 

[Yasar_TR]

To build a compact 1500HP engine is hard. But it is equally difficult to match a transmission that would withstand the sudden jerks and torque requirement of a 70 ton tank.
They need to be working homogeneously together. Same goes for a gas turbine engine. You will have to build a strong transmission that would withstand the sudden power and high torque that a turbine can deliver.
Also turbines are hot. Increases a tank’s IR signature. They also have a high fuel usage compared to diesel or hybrid engines.
Even if TEI managed to build a gas turbine version of TS1400, there is no guarantee that it will be fuel efficient or more importantly we would be able to manufacture a transmission that would work. Yes. We did manage to manufacture a turbo shaft engine. But we are still buying the transmission of the T-129 helicopters from Italy. (Also tank engine transmission and helicopter transmissions are totally different anyway.)

 

[Siper>MMU]

To build a compact 1500HP engine is hard. But it is equally difficult to match a transmission that would withstand the sudden jerks and torque requirement of a 70 ton tank.
They need to be working homogeneously together. Same goes for a gas turbine engine. You will have to build a strong transmission that would withstand the sudden power and high torque that a turbine can deliver.
Also turbines are hot. Increases a tank’s IR signature. They also have a high fuel usage compared to diesel or hybrid engines.
Even if TEI managed to build a gas turbine version of TS1400, there is no guarantee that it will be fuel efficient or more importantly we would be able to manufacture a transmission that would work. Yes. We did manage to manufacture a turbo shaft engine. But we are still buying the transmission of the T-129 helicopters from Italy. (Also tank engine transmission and helicopter transmissions are totally different anyway.)

US is leaving AGT1500 engines for Abrams tanks. IIRC AGT1500 production is near end. Future US Army Abrams tanks will use MTU diesel engines. Some of the reasons:

Too loud
Not fuel efficient
Dangerous for nearby infantry

 

[Radonsider]

US is leaving AGT1500 engines for Abrams tanks. IIRC AGT1500 production is near end. Future US Army Abrams tanks will use MTU diesel engines. Some of the reasons:

Too loud
Not fuel efficient
Dangerous for nearby infantry

US solved all of the problems except cost and fuel efficiency

 

[UkroTurk]

What do you think about electric/hybrid tank powered from turboshaft engine? Does it sound too much?

Hybrid electric aircraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Honeywell targets urban air mobility market with new hybrid turboshaft engine

Looking to expand its offerings for urban air mobility solutions, Honeywell International, Inc. of Charlotte, North Carolina has developed a new hybrid-electric turbogenerator prototype based on its existing HTS900 turboshaft engine.

www.sae.org

Safran Turboshaft To Power Zunum’s Hybrid/Electric Airliner | AIN

Ardiden 3Z rated to generate between 1,700 and 2,000 shaft horsepower

www.ainonline.com

 

[Heartbang]

What do you think about electric/hybrid tank powered from turboshaft engine? Does it sound too much?

Hybrid electric aircraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Honeywell targets urban air mobility market with new hybrid turboshaft engine

Looking to expand its offerings for urban air mobility solutions, Honeywell International, Inc. of Charlotte, North Carolina has developed a new hybrid-electric turbogenerator prototype based on its existing HTS900 turboshaft engine.

www.sae.org

Safran Turboshaft To Power Zunum’s Hybrid/Electric Airliner | AIN

Ardiden 3Z rated to generate between 1,700 and 2,000 shaft horsepower

www.ainonline.com

you dont need a turboshaft engine to act as a generator, just strap a 4-banger, TUMOSAN has those in spades!

 

[UkroTurk]

you dont need a turboshaft engine to act as a generator, just strap a 4-banger, TUMOSAN has those in spades!

1500hp is nearly 1100kw , a four pistons could generate it?

 

[Brokengineer]

To build a compact 1500HP engine is hard. But it is equally difficult to match a transmission that would withstand the sudden jerks and torque requirement of a 70 ton tank.
They need to be working homogeneously together. Same goes for a gas turbine engine. You will have to build a strong transmission that would withstand the sudden power and high torque that a turbine can deliver.
Also turbines are hot. Increases a tank’s IR signature. They also have a high fuel usage compared to diesel or hybrid engines.
Even if TEI managed to build a gas turbine version of TS1400, there is no guarantee that it will be fuel efficient or more importantly we would be able to manufacture a transmission that would work. Yes. We did manage to manufacture a turbo shaft engine. But we are still buying the transmission of the T-129 helicopters from Italy. (Also tank engine transmission and helicopter transmissions are totally different anyway.)

An hybrid turbosaft engine would eliminate a need for high torque rated transmission since transmission is used to generate power and will be working at much higher rpms. It could offer smaller footprint and use of only electric mode that reduce ir signature when needed.
In return, you would lose efficiency by not having a diesel engine and an engine indirectly powering through an battery which have some losses as well. Also, life cycle of battery and battery cell management is another aspect of challenge in this case.

 

[Heartbang]

1500hp is nearly 1100kw , a four pistons could generate it?

View attachment 45155

the thing you do is, you mount a 1500 hp electric motor to the wheels, and strap that motor to a battery pack. then you strap a 4-banger to a generator, and use that system to charge the battery pack.

the hybrid powerpack developed for Firtina howitzers' diesel generator is smaller than 2.5 liters in placement. having something similar for Altay is a no-brainer!

 

[UkroTurk]

battery pack

How long would it take to charge they?

 

[Nilgiri]

Yes, but you forgot transmission losses if we take into account transmission losses diesel-electric hybrid engines are more efficient. All those gears and shafts mean big energy losses for diesel engines.

Yes (specifically), but in general depends.

Thats why i mention "holding all else constant" (i.e assuming downstream system losses and many other issues too are the same) and look at just energy conversion loss (i.e thermodynamic loss) for the immediate intuition that timur had and pointed out.

But these factors are of course anything but constant when you talk about vastly different sized engines, torques and power ranges....and typical operation profile of the said engine.

The transmission losses would indeed be higher for larger (wheeled) propulsion systems....as mechanical transmissions commensurately grow to handle the vast divide between what the load at wheels can be compared to the engine optimal operating range.

The even larger issue (for very large IC engines ---> tractive wheels) is in fact the inevitable mechanical transmission design complexity, resulting size+weight and expense to begin with given the lowest gear tractive effort needed especially for locomotives which have large loads needing to be pulled external to its own mass.

But it is not the universal case as generator, switchgear size (weight and volume) become severe penalties for smaller IC engine propulsion alongside the conversion loss. Which is why (a now smaller more elegant) mechanical transmission makes much more sense for those generally.

In between clear big and small...there is assortment of factor analysis to be done for optimal feasibility, efficiency and performance.

 

[Zafer]

Turbine engines only work efficiently at around 90% throttle, It is good for flying cars but not for tanks.

 

[Merzifonlu]

No need a long charge time. The main function of batteries in a serial hybrid system is buffering. In other words, electric motors need very high current during the first start. The current produced by the diesel engine is insufficient in those first moments. Batteries fill this gap.

In a vehicle that has gained speed, the high current requirement decreases and the current produced by the diesel engine is sufficient to maintain the movement. Batteries are not always used at high performance. Therefore, there is no need for large battery banks in a serial hybrid system.

A serial hybrid system, on the other hand, will have its own potential problems. Power electronics elements must be of very high quality and very well planned. The risk of fire is relatively high. For example, batteries that start to burn must be able to be thrown out quickly. If the system is not well isolated, it is also open to attacks like graphite dust. Etc etc.

 

[Bogeyman]

But we are still buying the transmission of the T-129 helicopters from Italy. (Also tank engine transmission and helicopter transmissions are totally different anyway.)

I think I need to make a correction here. TS-1400 turboshaft engine is 100% national with everything. This includes the gearbox. I personally heard it from my engineer friend at TEI.
Mahmut Akşit himself confirmed that the gearbox is ready.

""With the first shaft gearbox, we have reached the maximum continuous power cycle of our TS-1400. It is very important to achieve this in the first attempt with the gearbox produced for the first time. With the localized accessories in the TEI-TS1400 engine, we have reached the maximum output speed of 23 thousand rpm and the maximum continuous power of 1400 horsepower. "

Milli helikopter motoru 2023'te insanlı uçuş testlerine başlayacak

TUSAŞ Motor Sanayii AŞ Yönetim Kurulu Başkanı ve Genel Müdürü Prof. Dr. Mahmut Faruk Akşit, "Hedefimiz 2023 içinde TEI-TS1400 motorunun bütün testleri başarıyla geçerek, Sivil Havacılık Genel Müdürlüğünden insanlı uçuş sertifikasını almasıdır." dedi. - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[Heartbang]

How long would it take to charge they?

the batteries would be charging nearly constantly, and the generator would be recharging nearly constantly.

like this:

 

[Cypro]

As far as I know, gas turbine engines are more efficient than diesel for electric generation, also lighter, having multiple electric motors combined with gas turbine electric generation could give better result without transmission. However batteries are big part of the problem, especially weight, and for these type of instant charging and powering units, capacitors are better than batteries or a combination of both to save battery lifespan. A tank is definitely not comparable to a hybrid vehicle, high charging and discharging required also a strong big inverter. I am still skeptical about MKE's e-vehicles.