TR Altay Main Battle Tank & Related Programs

[Chocopie]

Yes, you can order basic boron carbide ceramic tiles from various sources but not all of the Boron Carbides are the same. Depending on the production process and the small amount of additive materials added in the production, the mechanical properties of Boron Carbide and other armor materials change. It is like steel production.

Defense Technical Information Center

apps.dtic.mil

Enhanced mechanical properties of nanocrystalline boron carbide by nanoporosity and interface phases - Nature Communications

The mechanical properties of structural ceramics are characterized by a high degree of fragility and brittleness. This study demonstrates that, contrary to expectation, their brittleness can be reduced substantially by introducing nanopores together with weak grain boundary phases.

www.nature.com

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343309600_MECHANICAL_PROPERTIES_ENHANCEMENT_OF_BORON_CARBIDE_BASED_ARMOUR_MATERIALS

Twins enhanced mechanical properties of boron carbide

Boron carbide (B4C), an important structural ceramic with low toughness, is regarded as a potential bulletproof material for personnel and vehicles. I…

www.sciencedirect.com

That‘s true. Products like steel, ceramics, composite fiber are constantly refined with new technologies (nano tubes, nano chrystal steel) and production procedures.

And there‘re a plenty number of companies worldwide manufacturing bulletproof/ceramic armor based on boron carbide in different qualities (according to tech level). The statement is misleading, as if generally only 3 countries (US, Israel, Turkey) could manufacture B4C based tiles and plates IMO.

 

[Ripley]

Most Turks still mistakenly believe that Roketsan designed and produced Altay's Armour package, but this is not true. Altay's Armour package was designed by Samyang Comtech, a South Korean manufacturer of bulletproof equipment, at the request of Otokar, and Roketsan was just a producer of the Armour package.

When I participated in Altay's Armor Package design for three years, four Korean companies in charge of design assistance and technology transfer to Otokar knew that the project would start in 2009 and end in 2013.

But after Altay's first prototype, FTR, was developed in 2012, Otokar suddenly said another requirement. They told us to change the design of Altay's modular armour. Redesigning the Armor structure of the tank was the same difficult task as dismantling and re-creating the tank, and two or three years were far from enough for us. After that, we worked on the additional design of Altay's armour structure until early 2015, and the project ended one years later in 2016.

In the past, South Korea was able to obtain M1 Abrams' Special Armor Plate (SAP) technology implicitly from the United States, and applied the newly developed KSAP based on SAP to K2 through the K1A1 development program. When we completed the Altay FTR, we designed the composite armour with Silicon Carbide (SiC), not Boron Carbide (B4C), and Altay had the same armour structure as Korean Special Armor Plate (KSAP), K2's armour package. We were able to increase the ballistic protection level of Altay's front armour by stacking ceramic layers thicker than K2's ceramic plate when designing Altay's composite armour.

When talking about the excellence of Altay, Turks often tend to blindly believe in boron carbide as a kind of super technology, but in fact, Boron Carbide (B4C) is not much different in hardness from Silicon Carbide (SiC). For boron carbide, Mohs hardness is 9 to 10 and silicon carbide is 9+. In addition, in the case of boron carbide, materials are available relatively cheaply, but the manufacturing process is more demanding than silicon carbide.

In South Korea, Silicon Carbide is cheaper to manufacture due to the development of the semiconductor and electronics industries, so Silicon Carbide is mainly used for tanks and armored vehicles in Korea. The reason why we don't use boron carbide in tanks or armored vehicles in Korea is because of economic problems, not technical problems.

In my personal opinion, if change the material of Altay's composite armour to silicon carbide instead of boron carbide, the production price of Altay may become cheaper in the future.

Because Turkiye started fostering the semiconductor industry around the same time as South Korea, and although there are no nano-scale ultra-fine semiconductor process production facilities like Korea, but Turkiye still has factory facilities that produce many electronic products. For Turkiye, it is clear that silicon carbide is cheaper to produce than boron carbide.

Like many other Turkish defense projects, Altay is surrounded by too much misinformation (false or inaccurate or deceptive forms) and mishaps, failures, and wrong turns on its way only aggrandized this over time.
Rarely, however, you hear a first hand account regarding the project with facts in a chronological fashion.

Thank you @Baljak.
I wish we could “sticky post” it or something for future reference.

 

[Era_shield]

That‘s true. Products like steel, ceramics, composite fiber are constantly refined with new technologies (nano tubes, nano chrystal steel) and production procedures.

And there‘re a plenty number of companies worldwide manufacturing bulletproof/ceramic armor based on boron carbide in different qualities (according to tech level). The statement is misleading, as if generally only 3 countries (US, Israel, Turkiye) could manufacture B4C based tiles and plates IMO.

How are you making the claim that the "statement is misleading" when you don't even speak Turkish? The minister didn't say only 3 countries produce boron carbide armour, he said only 3 countries produce the type of armour he was demonstrating, which has boron carbide as one of its components.

Also, consider the fact that just this week the UK contracted Israel to produce the armour for its Type 26 ships (you can read about it right here on DefenceHub). Just because they made Chobham armour decades ago doesn't mean they currently produce the same cutting edge armour that Turkiye/Israel/US is producing.

 

[Chocopie]

This is what im talking about, it was also mentioned by the Turkish minister that only US and Israel is able to make it. Guy could translate for you.
Italy also import it from Turkiye
It is Bor carbor ceramic and they say the export price for each kg od such product is 90$

How are you making the claim that the "statement is misleading" when you don't even speak Turkish? The minister didn't say only 3 countries produce boron carbide armour, he said only 3 countries produce the type of armour he was demonstrating, which has boron carbide as one of its components.

Also, consider the fact that just this week the UK contracted Israel to produce the armour for its Type 26 ships (you can read about it right here on DefenceHub). Just because they made Chobham armour decades ago doesn't mean they currently produce the same cutting edge armour that Turkiye/Israel/US is producing.

Because @AzeriTank postet above, what the minister was telling. And I read this article about his visit at Nurol Technology with this passage:

THE NUMBER OF MANUFACTURERS IN THE WORLD​

These materials are lighter and provide more protection than armor steel. It is used to protect both personnel and armored vehicles and aircraft. The most important feature of the company is that it is one of the 3 manufacturers in the world in boron carbide ceramics. Nurol Technology has developed and produced this technology, which is only available in the USA and Israel, locally and nationally in our country.

That passage is misleading. This is different from your explanation: "he said only 3 countries produce the type of armour he was demonstrating, which has boron carbide as one of its components." <-- That is not misleading.

And AzeriTank claimed in another post further above, that only US, Israel, Turkey could make boron carbide armor, which is false and I called him out for it. End of story.

 

[Windchime]

End of the story is Altay will not use Korean armor technology, instead it will use the technology that Korea itself is not able to make
Thats what i said in the beginning and showed the videos as a proof

I dont even care what you get, if i would care, i would be on Korean tech channel, but seems like you do care as you are here)

"Technology that Korea itself is not able to make"

"I dont even care what you get, if i would care, i would be on Korean tech channel"

"But never talk to a Turk without proof, you will be busted sooner or later."

??

Seriously... let's show some decency here. I'm sorry to tell you but you sound like you very much care and that you're talking without much knowledge on the Korean side. Also, when you're talking about stuff Korean without much proof, "you will be busted sooner or later"

B4C ceramic armors already existed since the 80s. Although current B4C ceramics features noticeable improvements over the ones from 4 decades ago, its basic property doesn't change as a ceramic. You could improve on it of course, but to step into next generation you need a new material.

Apart from the imporvement to cermic materials, current industry leaders in armor technologies are pioneering MMC applications, some already on the field, with various composition structures and even differing plasticity gradients using FGM, different kinds of alloy-ceramic combination, etc. It is not that Korea's unable to make a B4C ceramic armor. It's just that their armor development is a continuation of SiC and that they've already moved to the next step.

Remember, always mind your words else you'll "get busted" I've already "busted" some people on this forum and they 've went oddly silent lately.

 

[TheInsider]

Anyway, Turkish boron carbide tiles are not the basic tiles, you can't buy similar tiles from Alibaba. Only a handful of countries can produce such armor tiles but the "only 3 countries" part of the news probably is an exaggeration or misleading.

 

[Windchime]

All i hear from you is words and “trust me” mentality. Im sorry, what makes special this forum is we talk based on facts. If you got any facts, bring up, if not, adios! Nobody cares what you say unles you bring up facts. On the other hand i talked with facts and nothing else.

EDITED

one source from KIMS.

 

[Windchime]

Now that I think about it with a bit of a cool head, all these disputes could have been avoided all together. There was a clear misunderstanding about one another's post. Let's summarize.

The post from @Baljak (https://defencehub.live/threads/altay-main-battle-tank-programs.272/post-235499) was describing his first hand experience on the Altay FTR program. This was pre 2017 and it is a known fact that Altay during that period had a Korean armor design and inserts. There are documents regarding the transaction of the export of 2nd gen KSAP insertions for the Altay prototypes.

Then, as we all know, there were the Germans. Already years before the completion of Altay, or Altay T1 as it is known now, Germans have decided to not grant EL of their Europowerpack to Türkiye. I remember some alternative plans that were explored around this period, such as a cooperation with the Japanese based on the Type 10 powerpack from Mitsubishi (2014) or with AVL list (2015). In 2017 the deal with AVL List and Tümosan broke down due to an intervention from the Austrian parliament. Then, the same year it was also announced that SSB was going to shake up the Altay production program. BMC won a new bid and Tümosan the engine development and production program and that's a whole another story. After BMC's selection, it also became more and more clear that the powerpack problem was going to be long-term. Altay production program was revised and T2 was brought forward as the primary production model after short stint of T1 production.

The origins of the Turkish B4C armor is something that I don't know, but I guess that it would have been a long-term plan to use this B4C armor for Altay T2 and beyond. Though as we all know the original program structure was revised several times due to delays caused by various problems, the most important problem being powerpack, and the turret structure of Altay T1 has changed a lot since the FTR. So it would not be wrong to say that what Baljak is saying and what @TheInsider and @AzeriTank are saying are both true. "Korean armor was used" in the older T1 (pre-2017, Otokar) and "Turkish composite armor with B4C ceramic" is used in current T1 (post-2018?, BMC). There could be some know-how from the Korean ToT program involved in the current armor design of the BMC prototype (that's what Türkiye paid Korea for, afterall) but the design of the current armor package itself looks to be Turkish.

As for the capabilities of the Korean industry, let's keep that out of this thread. There are suitable threads in the Korean Forum if you will.

 

[YeşilVatan]

Our Korean friends here need to know that we deal with a lot of foreigners who see our people as subhuman savages incapable of any scientific achievement. Some Turks may act out in ways that are not very tasteful when faced with accusations of IP theft and such.

On the other hand, those fools who underestimate us will prove their idiocy when we arm at least one third of the world.

 

[Baljak]

How come Turkiye recieved the technology from you that it only started to produce it in 2022? Also they openly mention that only USA and Israel is able to make it.
or how come they started to export it to Italy and other unidentified countries by 90$ per kg(this is a lot if you add tond of armor).
it doesnt addes up well.
Or why did Turkiye invest huge amount to English and Finish factory if they had this technology?
if you have proof, please show, otherwise ill start pretending im the defence minister spokeperson of Azerbaijan, or a SF who climbed the mountains of Shusha in Karabagh war))

"What turkiye can make, what germany can make, what korea can make" The always controversial topic in military forums is that someone can make something and someone can't make something. It seems to show off each other's superiority. I do not want to participate in this inconclusive debate.

All of my experiences in this forum refer to the days when I collaborated with Otokar to design the Armor package. Korean companies left the Altay project after the contract with Otokar ended, and after 2016, Altay's turret armour package was extensively re-modified. I'm just talking based on my experience in Turkey over three years and this can sometimes confuse you. By 2013 and 2014, Altay included less than 40% of K2 technologies, and I remember that when the prototype was completed in 2015, it was over 68%. By now, I expect that the foreign-made ratio would have been lowered by Turkish companies' efforts to localize it.

In general, except for tanks and armored vehicles, boron carbide materials are mainly used in limited fields such as tactical vehicles and bulletproof uniforms and bulletproof hats. However, Silicon carbide has a hardness similar to boron carbide and is quite cheap. Even Chinese high-purity boron carbide and silicon carbide are more cheaper.

Boron carbide powder with 99% purity is usually traded at around $160 per kilogram, while silicon carbide with 99% purity is cheap at around $12 per kilogram, and silicon carbide will be used more often in the field of bulletproof materials as well as in the manufacture of 3-nano process semiconductors.

And I'm not just talking about the price of boron carbide here, I'm talking about the price of an Altay tank of over $13 million made from a ceramic plate of boron carbide. If you were in a position to design and sell Altay, would you choose boron carbide or silicon carbide? The Altay project has already been delayed too much and the price of the tank will rise again if it is not produced from the scheduled 2023. It's not just a pun, it's referring to the difficulties of hundreds of small Turkish companies supplying Altay's parts.

There should be no more yılan hikayesi in the Altay project. Everyone has waited long enough so far.

 

[Chocopie]

AzeriTank said:
End of the story is Altay will not use Korean armor technology, instead it will use the technology that Korea itself is not able to make
Thats what i said in the beginning and showed the videos as a proof

AzeriTank said:
I dont even care what you get, if i would care, i would be on Korean tech channel, but seems like you do care as you are here)

DefenceHub is a global military forum were interested people from all of the world meet to exchange news and information about defence. The national forums are not reserved for their own nationalities. As you or someone else deleted your immature posts (mine too, hahahaha), I can only recommend you to open your eyes to different views and opinions instead of blind nationalistic chest beating. Knowledge is king.

If you want to educate yourself about Korea's long way of tank armor development for K2 Black Panther (transfer of technology for Altay MBT prototype included), see here: https://defencehub.live/threads/main-battle-tank-programs.270/post-235936

And if you are interested in 4th generation composite armor technology trends (Korean tech included) see here:
https://defencehub.live/threads/main-battle-tank-programs.270/post-235959

If you're lazy to read, then view the promo-clip of Korea's main composite armor manufacturer instead:
http://samyangct.com/eng/

End of post.

 

[Windchime]

yılan hikayesi

Guess you've learnt that phrase while woking with engineers from Otokar?

 

[AzeriTank]

"What turkiye can make, what germany can make, what korea can make" The always controversial topic in military forums is that someone can make something and someone can't make something. It seems to show off each other's superiority. I do not want to participate in this inconclusive debate.

All of my experiences in this forum refer to the days when I collaborated with Otokar to design the Armor package. Korean companies left the Altay project after the contract with Otokar ended, and after 2016, Altay's turret armour package was extensively re-modified. I'm just talking based on my experience in Turkiye over three years and this can sometimes confuse you. By 2013 and 2014, Altay included less than 40% of K2 technologies, and I remember that when the prototype was completed in 2015, it was over 68%. By now, I expect that the foreign-made ratio would have been lowered by Turkish companies' efforts to localize it.

In general, except for tanks and armored vehicles, boron carbide materials are mainly used in limited fields such as tactical vehicles and bulletproof uniforms and bulletproof hats. However, Silicon carbide has a hardness similar to boron carbide and is quite cheap. Even Chinese high-purity boron carbide and silicon carbide are more cheaper.

Boron carbide powder with 99% purity is usually traded at around $160 per kilogram, while silicon carbide with 99% purity is cheap at around $12 per kilogram, and silicon carbide will be used more often in the field of bulletproof materials as well as in the manufacture of 3-nano process semiconductors.

And I'm not just talking about the price of boron carbide here, I'm talking about the price of an Altay tank of over $13 million made from a ceramic plate of boron carbide. If you were in a position to design and sell Altay, would you choose boron carbide or silicon carbide? The Altay project has already been delayed too much and the price of the tank will rise again if it is not produced from the scheduled 2023. It's not just a pun, it's referring to the difficulties of hundreds of small Turkish companies supplying Altay's parts.

There should be no more yılan hikayesi in the Altay project. Everyone has waited long enough so far.

Im not saying you are wrong, everything could happen and we all know that Turkey was strugling to get the armor technology. However, especially in recent years, we see that Turkish armored vehicles has very high level protection compare to their weight, such as FNSS Yoruk, which has highest protection in its class, the company who made the mention local armor, produce them. On the other hand, another company started to make lightest body armor (800gr) can stand against 762/51 bullet(there is no such body armor yet.
Or this company, at 6:00 talks specially about tank armor that they want to mix metal, seramic, composit and reactive armor. One thing is clear, Turkey is not the same Turkey. Talking based on things that happened 10 years ago is not right. If you would say Turkey would fly unmanned fighter jet 10 years ago, even we would laugh at you. But there is different reality today and they are proving their capabilities by exporting them and he even mention that they even develop it further after the Ukranian war(adding reactive armor too as a layer and so on)

 

[AzeriTank]

And another Turkish armor technology) you guys have no idea about Turkish capabilities.. This company alone, which just started to produce, export to 6 European countries and they plan to use Eero 4 standart

 

[AzeriTank]

Nurol Makina company alone, exported its armor technology to more than 60 countries in Europe, Asia and Africa.

 

[B_A]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1611196438687645697

The Altay Main Battle Tank serial production line will be inaugurated on 9 January by President Erdogan: he will also press the button for the production of 1st 8 MBT’s 1st 8 Altay’s will then be delivered on 9 February.

 

[Agha Sher]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1611196438687645697

The Altay Main Battle Tank serial production line will be inaugurated on 9 January by President Erdogan: he will also press the button for the production of 1st 8 MBT’s 1st 8 Altay’s will then be delivered on 9 February.

Source is usually bs. Unless we can find a more reliable source reporting this then this news is probably fake.

 

[Zafer]

Source is usually bs. Unless we can find a more reliable source reporting this then this news is probably fake.

This Monday!

Monday is not far away.

 

[Era_shield]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1611196438687645697

The Altay Main Battle Tank serial production line will be inaugurated on 9 January by President Erdogan: he will also press the button for the production of 1st 8 MBT’s 1st 8 Altay’s will then be delivered on 9 February.

BS.

Forum needs a poop button.

 

[Tonyukuk]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1611321283500978177

Can I "Hmm" react my own post?